Hey folks,

As I just moved to a new place with a larger room for my home studio, and my current monitors are starting to show their age, I think it's time to upgrade.

TLDR: Should I upgrade my KRK VXT4's plus 10s Sub to the Neumann KH120(A or D?) or should I swing for the fences and get the ATC SCM20asl?

Before everyone tells me to get the more expensive option, a little background:

I record and mix mostly podcasts/dialogue and live bands, although I want to do more studio work with bands. Either way, detail is important for the dialogue work and balance is important for bands.

I currently have the KRK VXT4's which I loved, paired with the KRK 10s sub. The VXT4's are started to get noisy, one with a faint crackle and one with a bad buzz, and the sub footswitch hasn't worked for years, so it's always on (loved the option of turning the sub off and bypassing the crossover). I may get them fixed or try to fix them myself as a "B" and mobile setup, or I may just sell them for cheap and help pay for the upgrade. Either way, they've given me dutiful service for about 10 years now, and I know them well.

These were my first set of monitors that weren't just glorified computer speakers, and I found the detail and soundstage to be excellent, while still sounding very pleasant. I found them to be a little too relaxed in the high mids and highs, and my mixes would come out a little too pokey. I also found that (more likely due to my previous room, which was only partially treated) my mixes were tubby and bloated in the low end. I hope to treat the new room much more to avoid lowend issues, but I think the flattering mids/highs are a feature of the VXT4s. I could be wrong.

My new room is in a basement with low ceilings (7' tall) but fairly long and wide (21' x 15'). I will most likely set up along the short wall firing downwards but will measure both positions to see what is optimal due to some eccentricities to the space. Again, I want to add much more treatment this time around to avoid flying blind especially in the low end.

After I get things in the room placed optimally and well treated, I hope to upgrade my ailing monitors to hopefully something much better.

I have two competing options in my mind that both seem like an obvious upgrade, but one is much more expensive than the other.

The Neumann Kh120's seem really well loved as nearfields and won't break the bank. I expect them to be better than the VXT4's, but unsure if it will feel like a quantum leap or a marginal improvement. Also, unsure if these will be "my last monitors" or if in 5-10 years or sooner I will feel the need to upgrade again.

The ATC scm20asl seem really well loved as nearfields as well, but seem huge. I'm assuming based on what I read that I will definitely have a "night and day" feeling with my current monitors, but the price tag is certainly high. I would have to get these financed. At this price, I would definitely want them to be my "last" monitors.

For both pairs I imagine I could add a sub later, but that would increase the cost significantly and will probably have to wait a while as I prioritize treatment and mains.

So, assuming I get the room sorted properly, is it worth it to go ATC? Overkill? Are the Neumann's going to be so much better than the VXT's that I will be over the moon at a fraction of the cost of the ATC's? Which set is better for the dimensions of the room? Other contenders that I am overlooking?

The kh120 is a good monitor within his price range and topology.

That said I do feel the PMC Result6 might be better regarding translation, and are still within a very reasonable budget all considered.

On the ATC side, since you have a sub, you might want to give the SCM12pro with an integer nc502 amp a try..
the scm20 are indeed excellent, at a cost though..

For the price of the scm20, there are other options that are about the same price that you might want to consider are:

- Hedd Type20, different type of presentation due to the amt tweeter (I’m not a fan in general, but these are very well implemented imho).

- KS Digital A200 3way.. they do have a new model, sealed cabinet, I never heard this mk2, the previous version was excellent.

I hope this helps,



Cheu

Thanks, Cheu. I've grown to appreciate your detailed, experience-based responses and your taste in gear. Thus, your endorsement of the PCM Result6's are very intriguing to me, especially for the price. They weren't on my radar before. Reading through some of your comments about them on other threads, it seems they have a similar character and detail to the ATC's you love?

Does anyone know how warranty and service repairs are for PMC in the US?

Thanks for your kind words.. I try to be sincere and honest.. I don’t have anything to gain or lose, I don’t make any money out of this.. I do work as a sound engineer..

I see atc and pmc as somewhat “cousins”..

(in fact several years ago ATC was selling their midrange to pmc, when pmc started their adventure.. then pmc went with the volt ones..I believe..if somebody knows better, please feel free to correct me, I don’t know if they make them themselves now..but they are also very good, although I do think that the atc’s midrange have a very nice, incredible performance, maybe unrivalled, although we’re speaking about their top models and maybe is just personal taste, pmc’s midrange domes are also very, very good).

ATC is more “typically” british in its behaviour, PMC have more slam and punch, extend lower, thanks to their atl designs.

I tend to like these two brands..
pmc (in general terms, not a specific model) might be a tad “brighter”..
But I do like them..They translate pretty well too..

The pmc’s result6 are a nice monitor for the money, especially if you could find a used pair, and they don’t need a sub (within reason, they’re nearfields, but with a very nice slam, punch and lowend extension without distortion and they’re not bloated or the typical obe-note-bass ported nearfield).

Since you have a sub, the passive atc scm12pro with the aforementioned integer amp will also give you great results for more or less the same price.
The scm12pro used “alone” have less slam and have a different lowend due to the fact that they’re a sealed box design..So it start earlier than in other ported designs, of course, but they also translate very well, new atc tweeter is also a big plus.. no more ferrofluid to change, I’d certainly be happy to use these too.

ideally you might want to integrate them with a Subwoofer Pro’s 10” sub, also a sealed box, but you can start with what you have.

I don’t know pmc’s policies in the US, but I know Maurice it’s head of sales for PMC, and he’s in the US, also they take care of Capitol and other big places too, I don’t have any direct experience with their customer support, other than chatting with Maurice at some workshops in the past and with some emails, great guy, knowledgeable, very fast replies, super friendly, an enthusiast, which is very nice to see in this day and age..

I hope this helps,



Cheu

Thanks, Cheu. I don't know why I'm biased towards active monitors. I can't actually think of a reason, but I just sort of gravitated towards the active models over the passives + amps. Maybe because I read Brad Lunde's comments on the active vs passive SCM20asl and how he prefers the former.

I'll look into warranty/service here in the US, as I think that's an important factor for any piece of gear at this level. After all, if this is to be "my last pair of monitors" I will surely want the support should anything go wrong.

Cheu got me into purchasing a pair of ATC 20s, a few years ago. I didn't have the budget for buying it new, but luckily I found an MK1 from the early 00's in good condition in a British studio that was kept as a spare set, so pulled the trigger and happy that I did. So, yes, let Cheu guide you into the high-end monitoring world, he won't dissappoint you.

Yes, with ATC you are well set for 20+ years, you can concentrate on your skills with a tool like this at hand. Your room can also accomodate the larger 50 model, the 20's are fairly forgiving with smaller rooms, so if your studio is decently treated, you'll have no problem, even with the low ceiling.

,Andrei

it's indeniable that active xovers have some benefits over passives ones, but at home I'm using some old pmc fb1i with an amp, it's not that they're making my mixes worse.. if you know what I mean.

Also regarding longevity, I'd definitely think that a good amp and a passive pairs of speakers will have less "potential" issues over the years.. and if something goes awry with the amp, you can buy a new one, and in the worse case scenario change some burned woofers...

but I'd not really taking decisions this way..
write to pmc and ask..

(the issues with some of their older rebranded monitors, the digidesign ones, is that digidesign prohibited them to sell spare parts when they decided to discontinue these rebranded models..at least this is what I've heard.. terrible customer practice imho, but we all know that avid/digidesign is not here to make customers happy, otherwise I'd not understand some, actually most, of their decisions).

I fear that if you plan these to be your "last" piece of monitors, you might want to get a TOP loudspeaker.. and it might not even be the last anyway.. but I see and understand what you mean.



Cheu

Thanks Andrei. Glad you are happy with your monitors!

Your comment about my room being large enough to accommodate the scm50's is both exciting and terrifying to me. Exciting to hear that my new room may be considered "not small" for acoustic purposes, and terrifying for my wallet...

I will definitely talk to PMC and look into the ATC scm12s as well.

I avoid Digidesign/Avid like the plague. Never jived with their business model, and fortunately nowadays there are plenty of alternatives that you don't need to buy in just to have Pro Tools.

If I were to "reach" for the very best, would the ATC SCM20's qualify? Or is that spot reserved for the larger 3-way systems like the 50 and up? I may only be able to afford my "second to last" set now... haha

Me and Cheu are def on the same page. I agree with all of this! I've owned Result6's since they came out and they've been fantastic to my workflow. I'm also a KH310 owner but recently picking up some ATC SCM25's to replace the 310's.

ATC and PMC highlight very similar areas on the spectrum. I've worked on IB1s II's for a few years and found their mid range very similar to 3way ATC's. PMC's do go lower tho. I can only assume the smaller scm12/20's are in the same ballpark as the PMC twotwos and Results. For bang for your buck the Results are amazing. Powered and ridiculously light. I would def give them a demo.

The KH line are very flat speakers. A much different mid range to ATC/PMC. But when mixes sound good on them they translate VERY well. I had no problems with mixes translating from the KH310's, it was just the process that it took to get it there wasn't my favorite, hence why I'm switching the ATC's. But adding a sub to the 120's should theoretically increase some mid range clarity. The KH750 looks very appealing with the room EQ system.

I have both the Neumann KH120's and the ATC scm20asl's. The ATC's are considerably better than the Neumann's. The lows have less distortion and the highs are very clean and transparent. The 20's have better twitter than the 25's also. I'd say go ATC if you can swing it. Only thing is you might need a sub as I did. It's room dependent. I needed a sub (actually did two) for these to work in my room. It's a minimally treated basement for whatever that's worth.

The atc scm20 are excellent and somewhat close to their 3way siblings regarding the detail/definition..
to me it’s a sort of better sounding ns10 on steroids.. for lack of better terms..

They’ll benefit from a sub, since it’s a sealed box and atc have a different type of lowend presentation than other brands/systems.

I’d say that yes, the ultimate loudspeaker might be a 3way, mid dome based..

Try to HEAR some contenders in YOUR room, this is a big deal, mainly because (no matter how expensive the speakers are and how well treated the room is), you’ll always listen to a combination between the room and the loudspeakers..

Try to listen to the result6 and some atc’s you could afford.. THEN decide..
Don’t listen too much to my blabbering.



Cheu

Thanks, everyone. Lots to mull over here but it seems like I'll be in a good place whether it's Neumann, PMC, or ATC, with many preferring the latter two.

Am I correct in thinking that a 2-way nearfield is the way to go and adding a sub later, or is there a strong preference for a 3-way system in my 21'x15'x7' room? Just want to make sure I didn't start with a flawed assumption - as I do like to mix fairly quietly and the idea of parting out the cost is attractive as well.

I’ve had the SCM12 pros for several years. They translate well….easy to listen to all day. Seems like they need LOTS of power. I’m seriously considering some scm20s. If you mix for a living, it doesn’t matter how much they cost.

I’ve never tried the neumann speakers, but I’d like to.

Good luck!!!

With a room that size you can do either a 3way or a 2way with a sub. I have a similar sized room and I went for the ATC SCM25a over the 20's w sub because I personally don't love subs woofers for mixing. Just my personal opinion. I too mix at a low volume and love the way the 25's sound low. They retain their clarity and punch.

But I've read about plenty of people using scm20's + a sub and KH120's + sub. The SCM20's are more appealing not only because of their sound, but also due to the fact that they are sealed. So phase and crossover issues with a sub become much less a problem compared the KH120's that are ported. (although the KH750 sub is supposed to integrate perfectly with any speaker on the KH line.) I don't think you'd be wrong with any of these choices tho, mixes will translate very well with all of these systems. It comes down more to your budget and how you work with each.

I've always been curious how my Result6's would sound with a sub, I just always got nervous integrating a sub on small speakers with ATL technology. Maybe somebody can chime in if they have experience with this.

After you bought ATC SCM25, do you still feel your PMC Result6 monitors are necessary?

If mixings on KH translate very well, what is the process you didn't like? Switching between KH310 and PMC Result6 very often? Personally I really like KH300/310, especially I can work on music many hours a day without feeling fatigue. But if I mix only on them, it always sounds too bright on other monitor systems. Usually I ended up checking my final mix on larger PMC MB2 in the other room. The process took me much longer to get there. I thought about buying Result6 without spending too much, but not sure if it's worth the effort. Comparing with larger PMC or 3 ways KH, it's really too small.

Thanks!

The ATC monitors are fun to work with, imo they are slightly better than the neumanns. Wish I those here at my home studio but can’t really afford them atm. :(

Not long term. I have them up currently because I know them so well, and even tho the ATC's are so good in the mid range, there's still a learning curve that I have to learn. So my PMC's are my reference point. Who knows, maybe I'll keep them. My plan was to go with SCM25's and NS10's, but I'm being honest the Result's have become my own modern day ns10's in the way I use them. So who knows if I get rid of them, I'm in no rush right now. It will probably be a bit redundant once I know the 25's really well.


I bought the 310's hoping to spend most of my time on them, but found myself staying on the PMC's for the majority of the mix. For the size of my room, I'd like to work on a great 3way monitor for most of the time, while using my ns10's just to check from that perspective.
I found it very difficult to balance drums on the 310's. I always pushed them too far and had to dial back once switching to the PMC's. And for me I like to hear aggressive transients. It's just how my brain likes to listen to music. Its not so much a learning curve but more so I don't love how that speaker makes me balance, hard to explain. It wasn't very exciting in that department.
The other thing was mid range, specifically upper mids (2k and up.) While there's a lot of detail there no doubt, I had a hard time judging harshness. I turned to the PMC's when I worked on that part of the spectrum. Again none of this is necessarily a problem since I had all of the tools I needed to get a great sounding mix that translated. It's just like you said a lot of back and forth. For the pop and hiphop music I tend to mix, I really wanted as much mid range clarity I could possibly get. I thought I'd get that from the 310's but I realized after the fact it's the 25's that would get me there. The Results held me down in that area for a long time, I'm just finally in a position to be able to upgrade to the next level.

Also fyi: I purchased the Results back when they first came out (I think i was the first in Nashville to have them, I bought the first pair from Jordan at the PMC House here so it's been a minute.) My old room at the time had IB1S-aII and I was able to compare the Results to the big boys. While they are two totally different beasts, the Results were no slouch in the mid range next to them. It was a big reason in me buying them, to be able to start mixes at home and bring them in to the studio to finish. There's a definite learning curve but it's worth it.

Just one thing to add. If your mixes on any of these monitors are too “bright” it’s more likely the room than the monitors.

Good monitors can last you 20 years or more. I don't think many people think "I wish I hadn't spent so much on monitors." But you should listen to both, in your own room if possible.

Thanks everyone. I spoke with PMC and am going to get on the wait list for a demo pair of Result6's, and my Sweetwater guy is going to see if he can track down a pair of ATC scm20's for me to try, but that's not as certain at this point.

Will be good to hear them in my own room for sure. I appreciate everyone's input. In the meantime I will be working on sorting out my new room with additional treatment...

Thanks! I am interested in adding a pair of Results to my Neumann/ NS10 system. Please let us know if you decide to keep Results for your workflow. Thanks again!


My room is well treated. Just choose one of your favorite CDs, playback and switch between two different monitors. They will sound very different, even if they are both hi-end in the similar price range. That's why some of us need two monitor systems. It's about references and finding balance.

IMHO Neumann 3XX are usually on the warmer, less aggressive side.

I owned the KH120, and then I added the KH805 sub. Then I got a chance to test it against ATC SCM25 for a weekend. The ATC setup was more fun to build a mix on cause it had more spatial detail (three way monitor). They gave me a better idea of panning and space, and where to put instruments. The Neumann helped me refine the problem frequencies and establish bass balance. I think alot of the hate the Neumanns get is due to their unforgiving flatness. They will expose a lacklustre mix for what it is, but they won’t give you any ideas on how to make your nice clean mix into an inspiring vibey one. They will give you that excellent translation, as mentioned above, but you as a mixer need to know how to push them in your musical direction for the final 20%. If I were a rich man I’d write on big Focal/PMC/ATC, and nitpick on the Neumanns for this reason.

the result 6 is definitely a step up from the 120. I was wowed by them in short demo and how well they stood up against other PMC monitors costing tens of thousands. My only qualm is they don’t have the kind of bass I need for my music (EDM), which brings me to my next point.

You have to look at is the sub. The KH120 is a good speaker alone. The KH310 is as well. Adding a Neumann sub to these will turn either of these into a whole new animal. Most people comparing these speakers haven’t done it with the sub. Currently I’m using a KH310 (which gave me a better image/instrument separation than the 120) with the KH750 sub and the new MA-1 correction system. Not many have had a chance to test this system yet, as it’s still fairly new, but I’ve never had better translation ever. I feel like I have what I wanted with both those systems above. My only other addition would be a big hype speaker for clients/writing (mentioned above). I feel like if I can’t get pro results with this setup, there’s something wrong with the engineer, not the system. For the price of the SCM20, you could have this entire setup and be covered right down to 22 hz with correction for your environment vs having the ATC and guessing your lows. Nothing against ATC, but if you are stretching your budget, Neumann offers better value for equivalent performance when you add the extra pieces. It also gives you to add the pieces as you get money and compensate for your changing room situation.

I really appreciate your input. I've had a sub for so long I've forgotten what it's like to mix without one - so very interested to try some of these in my room and hear it for myself.

Do you know if it's possible to demo Neumann's in the US?

Looking at total cost here in the US new of some of the various final configurations:

ATC Scm20asl (active) + studio pros 10" sub = $8,240
PMC Result6 + PMC twotwo Sub 10" = $7,950
PMC Result6 + studio pros 10" sub = $4,700
ATC Scm12 (passive) + integer amp + studio pros 10" sub = $4,639
Neumann kh120d + kh750 = $4150
Neumann kh120a + neumann kh750 = $3,108
Neumann kh80 + Neumann kh750 = $2650

Interesting exercise, and definitely makes me wonder how the PMC Result6 would behave with a different subwoofer. When I spoke with PMC they highly recommended sticking to their sub, but I wonder if that's more a part of the job or actually due to how the proprietary bass port would behave with sub integration.

Lots of ways to spend your money, aren't there.

Now, ideally, take at least 3 of those systems to your studio, and keep the one that provides what you're looking for in a monitor. Don't be afraid to spend a few dollars for shipping returns, it's important to test them in your room if you want to avoid regrets and compromises.

The pmc/sub pro and the atcscm12/amp/sub pro are the best bang for your buck.

I never used the result6 with their sub (or with a sub for that matter).. not strictly necessary imho, as nearfield.
Atc will definitely benefit from it, especially if you’re used to mix with one.

The pmc will probably still have more “punch”, the atc might be more “british” in their presentation.. both great options.

(Don’t know about the integration, in theory with a sealed sub might be less of an issue, in case there might be one with pmc.. but I never did it myself with these, so I dunno from my own experience)..

I’m not sure I’d invest that money on their sub when getting the result6..

Remember that the neumann sub use dsp’s.. while they do their job well, when I heard a 750 with the kh80 (which was calibrated with their system) of a friend it felt it was too much sub..too prominent.. sounded pretty good overall, but with the “typical” neumann “softness”.
Dunno why they didn’t turn the volume down a bit.



Cheu

Obviously everyone’s room is different, as are specific requirements over low end, but thought I’d chime in and tell you I traded in a KH80/750 set for a pair of Result6s and couldn’t be happier. I have small room but decent bass is important to me and ATL works very well. Well worth trying out - don’t be put off by the specs. The bass is there, low and tight.

And yes, the 750 was overkill

I've been ABing the scm25's next to the Results for about a week now and to be totally honest, aside from the 25's having an obviously bigger sound, the mid range is absolutely in the same ball park. There's no denying the mid range is slightly more detailed on the 25's, but compared to other speakers, the sound is very similar. It makes sense why 25's have a better low end and low mids, but in terms of what's shown in the upper mids (all the hard stuff you'd want to get rid of) they expose the same things. Lots of people say when they switch to 25's they're shocked at how their mixes don't hold up and they can hear so many errors they haven't heard on their old speakers. I (luckily) haven't had that issue, most of my old mixes are holding up great on the 25's, and I'm guessing because of the mid range work I was able to do on the Results. Don't confuse what some people call "bright" as actually being detailed. Room plays a big part in all of this so your decision to demo first is very smart. I've had my Results in 3 different rooms and they definitely sounded at their best in the better rooms.

I can't say enough good things about the Neumann/Result/NS10 system. I'm actually second guessing why I'm getting ATC's I think like I said earlier I personally just didn't enjoy the process of getting there, and the ATC's will allow me to skip some steps and switching back and forth. But the more I'm listening to the 25's and Results the more I'm blown away at how much the little PMC's hold their weight.