just bought the tdr limiter 6 GE and testing. it sounds a bit smoother than the old vladg limiter and can be a bit punchier because of the many many settings. and it can get a bit louder.
these are my first impressions although i am still testing and reading the manual.

but ... the old vladg is really good, with a bit of HF limiting it can get very close soundwise if not pushed to hard.

what would be the most transparent setting in the new one?

Hmmm. Just downloaded/installed the latest versions of Limiter 6 GE (and Nova GE) and now all my old Pro Tools sessions are telling me I don’t have the plugins installed.

Of course the plugin is installed and I can load a new instance but then it will over-write the saved settings which we (obviously) don’t want.

Mac OS 10.14.6
Pro Tools 2020.9.1

Anyone else seeing this or have some friggin’ gremlins sneaked into my system?

R.

Hi guys,

I haven't heard back from TDR yet regarding this (though admittedly I only wrote support after business hours last night) but just to confirm that Limiter 6 GE v1.2.3 (and Nova GE v2.1.4) has broken backward compatibility with my Pro Tools 2020.9.1 sessions.

I rolled back to Limiter 6 GE 1.2.2 (and Nova GE v2.1.3) and all is good.

Although I own (and have updated) all the GE editions I'm not sure if this break spans the whole line as I mainly use L6 GE and Nova GE in all my sessions and those are the only two I've had time to check.
0

Please try to manually delete the previous AAX first:

/Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/TDR Limiter 6 GE.aaxplugin

/Library/Application Support/Avid/Audio/Plug-Ins/TDR Nova GE.aaxplugin

...and then reinstall again. The installers seems to fail at overwriting a previously installed read only file on some systems.

Hi TDR,

Apologies for posting this here. I normally try to go directly to vendors with support issues, but after receiving no response via a direct email, I am posting here. Perhaps I used the wrong email, or perhaps you guys work better with the forum. Either way, it is all good.

Firstly, I just bought the whole TDR suite of plugins, and I LOVE them! And, I very much respect your interactions on this forum and your contributions to the aliasing discussions.

I have observed a possible issue with Limiter 6. Of course, it is possible this is user error.

It seems like the Auto Pad/EL Bypass thing is not working in Ableton Live 11.

It is easy to reproduce:

• Simply create a new Ableton project
• Add Limiter 6 to an audio track with some program material
• Crank the Drive knob on the Peak Limiter
• Turn on Auto Pad
• Click EL Bypass

Expected results:

• Limiter 6 is bypassed with equal loudness

Actual results

• Clicking EL Bypass greatly reduces the volume of the signal

I am not sure if the issue is with Auto Pad or EL Bypass. I suspect it is Auto Pad, because clicking on that button does not reduce the volume as expected.

Thanks for the support!

Paging @ FabienTDR . I tried emailing support and posting here with no luck. Is there a better way to contact you guys about the above possible bug?

Thanks!

Oh no worries, we noted this report of course. We're working a several updates anyway, and will address your case as well.

I like the old vladg. It sounds good and has zero latency.
The new tdl limiter 6GE sounds good aswell.

Awesome; thanks! Quick, unrelated question: I realize this is a broad, non-TDR-specific question and also subjective, but here goes:

When using delta monitoring and searching for distortion and artifacts, assuming we want a “decent modern master of pop or EDM music” are we aiming for zero clicks and artifacts? Or, are we just making sure there is nothing “crazy” happening? It seems hard to achieve a louder level without any clicks and pops.

Also, are the clicks and pops we hear always distortion or artifacts? If not, is there a telltale way to hear the difference?

Thanks much!

The delta-signal, as I'm sure you already know, is what is being removed from the signal. Think about that for a minute and then ask yourself, whether your question does actually make sense!

What LUFS Integrated level are you aiming for? Naturally there are physical limitations to how much you can gain reduce material before you introduce artefacts. Compression / Limiting is essentially dynamic waveshaping and you cannot waveshape (= clip) a signal without eventually negatively affecting the natural dynamics. That's of course only when you overdo it! That's why it's common to target moderate levels such as -12 LUFS integrated (more commonly even less, -14 or -16 LUFS).

If you are aiming for an ultra-loud -6 LUFS integrated EDM style master, there is no way around artefacts. It's just physically not possible to get there without killing a significant amount of the natural transient response of the material. That's exactly why most EDM tracks sound like arse.

Fair enough: if that style of sound is the role model you are pursuing, than go for it. But don't expect jazz or classical music like fidelity from a track with no natural transients. You have to decide what you want.

It's also advisable that you get some reference tracks that meet your sound aesthetics and measure their levels, visualize their frequency response (eg in SPAN) and also watch the waveform in your DAW. That way you will get a better understanding of the characteristics of such a master. Right now it seems you are shooting into the dark and don't know what you actually want to achieve.

Really appreciate the thoughtful reply; thank you.
Indeed, I thought about that, but I did not put 2x2 together. I suppose what I am hearing - when delta monitoring - is not distortion; rather, it is what is being removed, which of course might sound "clicky" depending on the level of gain reduction.
I usually aim for -12 LUFS. To my relatively inexperienced mastering ears, that is a nice tradeoff for loudness vs dynamics for my program material.
Using reference tracks is always sound advice. I had not really thought about looking at the waveform of the reference. Seems so obvious. Thanks for the nudge.

-12 LUFS Integrated is absolutely reasonable and TDR Limiter 6 GE should easily get you there without any obvious artefacts in my experience as an user.

The rough idea is to use all the modules. Don't do more than 2 - 3 dbs (absolute maximum) of gain reduction on each module, rather less. Don't set the attack times too fast on the compressor, allow it to breathe. Since you are into higher BPM music genres use rather short release / recover times (but not too short, definitely >50 ms and <150 ms).

Use the clipper to chop off tiny transients that take away headroom. You can use an oscilloscope (for example free Smexoscope) before and after Limiter 6 to see whether it really 'eats' those tiny transients without affecting the 'body' of the signal. Play around with the different clipper modes and settings, especially the knee (around -3db should be fine, if you set the treshold correctly).

After the peak limiter, drive the remaining signal into the final stage and activate True Peak limiting, set treshold to -0.3 and drive the gain until you have maybe 1db of gain reduction or so.

PS: If you want you can send me an 8 bar loop of the main part of your track and I can show you how I bring it to -12 LUFS with a screenshot of my settings for free. I can also do a complete master for you, but then we would have to arrange compensation via private message, since it would require more of my time and resources.

Cheers

Hi Fabien and Vlad. Just want to say yesterday I finally updated to full bundle and while I don't think I regret buying any plugin - I am not buy everything person - I was never so proud to buy one as I did yesterday. Thanks for amazing work!

I have the exact same issue with other plugins from TDR as well (on ableton Live 11, if it makes any sense). At least on Molot and Limiter 6 (didn't try this feature on Kotelnikov yet)...
For this reason I never use the equal loudness - I was thinking something was beyond my understanding and I passed on that. Anyway, I gain match in and out on all my plugins, so I don't exactly care. But it's clearly a bug...

Any update on the EL Bypass issue?

I think the most underestimated module in Limiter 6 GE is compressor, which, fortunately, can be used "standalone", without limiter and others.
4 completely different charactrers with a small set of parameters - they can replace a bunch of compressors in mixing/tracking!

They're not named as "VCA", "FET" and other basic topology terms, but you can define their character for yourself just trying them in different situations. They do cover the whole range, and when combined with Limiter 6 GE clipper, peak limiter, HF limiter - it becomes a greatest dynamics toolbox. You can mimic analog behavior by clipping before or after compression, by adding HF limiter to tame more highs.. the only thing is kind of missing is sidechain input, but that's not that important thing for the most situations.

How is the Equal Loudness Bypass function supposed to work?

When I activate "Auto Pad" and lower the clipper threshhold to -14 (ceteris paribus), my drum loop is @ -24.2 LUFS integrated.
If I then activate the "EL Loudness" button, it goes to -22.5 LUFS integrated.

FL Studio, latest version...

I love the TDR plugins, but I must say I don't understand their equal loudness features (at least on Limiter and Molot).

When it comes to bypass, "equal loudness bypass "compensates for the changes in loudness due to plugin processing, so you can hear the pre and post at the same loudness, in order to make a more informed decision of the result (if you like it or not).

The equal loudness trim has the same mechanism, but in this case it adjusts the output of the processed signal to match the loudness of the input.

Also check Dan Worrals's presentations (in general) and on these plugins in particular on TDR's youtube channel. EXTREMELY informative.

Well, how do you explain the 1.7db LUFS difference after (de)activating the EL bypass button?

There's no way in the world that you can compare at equal levels with this plugin...

The explanation is simple: while the solution is one of the best out there, the solution is not perfect - I think Fabien himself mentioned this aspect somewhere (threads or facebook). It can't be perfect but is way better than nothing (comparing little over 1.5 dB - when it happens to be that big - is easier than comparing >3dB of compression/eq when compensation is lacking completely).

I use it at times, I use it mindfully, (I also use the delta mode when available on plugins) I don't expect the tool to replace my ears. Finding ways to work with the flaws of a plugin in order to serve you better is way more rewarding than simply pointing out flaws.

That's not really an explanation, is it?

But, I feel what your saying about flaws. However, TDR was always flawless in their other plugins.
I want to ditch izotope plugins in favor of TDR, but izotope has no flaw when it comes to equal loudness bypassing.

Edit: after testing other plugins, I think gain matching is more complicated than it seems, and I do not know enough to comment on this.

What I find so strange is the silence on this subject. Fabien is an active poster here on Gearspace, especially in the Aliasing plugins topic.

Four months ago this issue was posted and no substansive reply was posted here.

If the EL bypass function works as best as they can implement then why not just tell us that?

Although this plugin is on sale now, i'll just stick with Ozone 9 Advanced (Maximizer).

Generally, EL Trim and EL Bypass functionality is equal across all our plugins. They use exactly the same logic, same code (in our codebase, it's really just one single function reused by all products).

It's important to realize that the EBU's r128 itself asks for about 10 second of audio before being able to return reasonable results. We calculate this while EL BYPASS and/or EL TRIM is not pressed.

Now, if the granted analysis time (by the operator) is very short, i.e. shorter than these ~10 sec in average, it will yield errors. Further, if the analysed section (the audio that ran while the EL system was analysing) diverts too much from the audio that follows while EL BYPASS is held, it will also yield errors.

You'd get exactly the same issue with DIY equal loudness setups. It's inevitable, these things need "time" to work. Our EL approach solves the impossible, it is an offline algorithm made realtime. So of course there will be limitations, simply because realtime can't look into the future, it can't know which keys the operator will hit next.



As for Limiter 6, something else comes into play. Because the equal loudness bypass of a heavily limited audio will very likely overshoot like crazy. This is why Limiter 6 also has an AUTO PAD function reducing both the BYPASS and OUTPUT in such a way the BYPASS doesn't overshoot. You can ignore this function if it doesn't fit your workflows, equal loudness bypass in a limiter is never really easy.

Edit: after testing other plugins, I think gain matching is more complicated than it seems, and I do not know enough to comment on this.

I think EL Bypass in TDR plugins is as good as it gets.

For Limiters / Clippers , in general, I just prefer the processed signal to not have any gain compensation (Peaks quieter than the dry signal) this way I find easier to listen what the processor is removing and what is adding.

The old free version of Limiter 6 forces cubase to crash on closing. Is that different in this version?

I'm not so sure about that. I've purchased this plugin nonetheless. However, EL Bypass is not used by me. As soon as I hit that button, no matter how much time i've given the plugin to adapt to the music, it decreases the volume with almost 2 LUFS.

If it's not equal loud at all, why implement it in the plugin??
There must be a better way of implementing this feature. Other plugin manufacturers can do it.

I was refering mainly to TDR EQs & Comps, as I said, for Limiters, in general, I just prefer peaks to be reduced without loudness compensation.