Based on some research ... the song was recorded at Columbia Studios ... according to Moog Archives, Columbia owned a few Moog Modulars ... at least 2 of them were 901 based. Not sure if these are the exact modulars they used. Now listening to the song, isn't the best Moog sound IMO. I almost thought it was an Oberheim for a second

Some company nobody likes is using cheap pots. They are quite different from what the vendors you mention are using.

The pots necessary to achieve the front panel markings that Moog put on their face plate isn't manufactured anymore. The tolerances don't exist outside of a custom process. Any need for accurate pots was replaced with digital circuits.

Really it's only one pot; the 10% log/audio taper 1Meg pot. The rest are fine, any good pot will meet the design spec for any other use case in System 55.

It's the reason you don't see anyone other than vintage Moog puts actual timing on the front panel. Everyone else uses 0-10. Lol!

Just spent a couple of months working on this.

I have no idea what you are talking about ... I never once mentioned Behringer ... and please, don't bring Behringer into this conversation. I personally am getting sick of people talking about Behringer on this site and constantly defending the company and its practice. I am referring to Modern Moog Modular compared to vintage. The modern Moog Modular is not an EXACT copy.

Do you personally own a new Moog Modular? Have you compared the 960 to a vintage 960? They are not the same etc ...

I own a LOT of vintage Moog ... like 80+ modules.

AFAIK, new Moog etc are not using AB pots. Vintage ones do. New Moog is using much cheaper pots these days.

Can you measure something for me please?

How accurately does the face plate match the 911 performance? Or the 961, or the 911A? Measured with a scope? Does your 911 goto 800us fully CCW or is it 2ms? Is 1sec really 1sec, or is it 1.1sec? Would be good to get a really measurement if you have an early 911, and a later one if you have it.

Tell's me something about what the goal is. Thank you!

well AB pots are like $20 each ... companies aren't wanting to spend that sort of money so they are using cheap parts that are more like $1.

So, that's why I mentioned 'them', they truly do have cheap pots*. The rest, are well... ok. To meet the 911 panel measurements, it has to be extraordinary by todays standards. Even a $1 pot has some good characteristics. 'Those' are like 15 cents to use your scale :-)

If you do have a scope. I would be interested in a couple of those measurements.


*-selectivity, repeatability, EOT, fit to taper, etc...

It seems to me you somehow want to justify your view. The original post was talking about the sound of Moog. If you want to talk technical about Vintage Moogs, I am not your guy. I can certainly hook you up with the Moog specialist featured in the I Dream of Wires movie. I am a full time composer, producer who uses vintage gear everyday. I have no idea what a faceplate has to do with the performance of the module itself. A Moog faceplate is anodized aluminum and has nothing to do with the sound of the module, which is the only thing I care about

Lol! I hear you :-) stay safe my friend, and enjoy those beautiful synths. Lovely beasts!

I hear you. I'm an engineer so... I focus on those things. Anyway, stay safe my self, and enjoy those beauties! They're beautiful piece of equipment.

Yeah, how dare you bring your experiences, thoughts, and opinions into an open forum, you jerk!

Oh, my other post made it. My iPad hung so I went to pick up sushi.

Came back and wrote this too. Seemed a shame just to toss it in the lost post pile.

============
I hear you. I'm an engineer so... you know I focus on those things. I apologize for busting in, I rarely find anyone with the instruments with a recent post; I got excited since 'cheap pots' was exactly what I was investigating. :-)

Anyway, stay safe my friend, and enjoy those beauties! They're beautiful piece of equipment.

:-)

So we are now into name calling? Moog Music these days is NOT using AB pots etc ... they are using cheaper components etc ... that is a fact. Moog Music is not making a "clone" of vintage Moogs ... My experience? I have 30 years in electronic music ... what's your point? Again, you guys want to change the topic of this thread to something that has nothing to do with what the question was. I was responding directly to the person that asked me a question. He asked me what the difference was between a new and Vintage Moog Modular. Now, if you own a Vintage Moog Modular and played a new one, cool. We welcome your opinion on the difference. I am not here to debate Behringer, or any other synth company. I don't own any clones etc ... my opinion is based on my use of the gear in question. Again its my opinion. This isn't a debate.

no worries .... my tech is an avid collector of Moog gear. We debate this all the time when it comes to re-issues etc .. and companies claiming to be "cloning" old gear and schematics. A clone to us is an "EXACT" copy, using the exact same build process, exact same parts etc ... any variation on that is now a design "inspired" by an old circuit etc ... my tech has had a re-issue Moog Modular in for repair and was quite disappointed on the shortcuts Moog did.

Believe me, you're not alone. I have an old limited release Silicon Graphics "Super computer" I'm still looking for parts for. It is was only built in 1989!

Here's a shot before the main power supply died. Haven't had the heart to rip it apart and install a modern 'gorilla heart' in it's place.

Besides, it takes about 1/2 an hour to boot with four processors!

OK - thanks for the replies! I love the sound of the Minimoog. It's of course fairly common in classic rock, progressive rock in the 70s - a lot of which I love (Yes, etc). I singled the BOC song out because it was reported to be from a Moog modular. Allen Lanier was probably half out of his head and just coming to grips with the modular setup. I think it gives that song's Moog lead a special otherworldliness because it was so untamed and spontaneous sounding. There are much more classic examples of vintage Moog modular sound out there, but I liked hearing what can be done with the equipment by approaching it a bit madly (and in a hard rock setting). I really appreciate you looking up what was being used at Columbia Studios at that time. I have a feeling it was 901s in that song and I think that's what I want - not the more perfected 921.

I would love vintage Moog Modular and I might decide the expenditure is worth it at some point. At this time I'm leaning towards modern Moog even with pots that may not be exactly vintage (Moog had the advantage of old-world off-the-shelf pots back then and they probably just don't make them like that anymore... unless you're hooked up with a NASA supplier or something - I don't really know).

I've listened to some clones and some brands in particular do not impress me (I won't name names because it's only been limited listening and I'm only going on visceral reaction - not trained on the finer points Moog listening). I haven't listened to System 700 yet, but will.

I do like the sound of synthesizers.com modular because it sounds a bit wild and on the verge of getting out of control. I plan to use only for short bursts of Moog sound, so I'm willing to tune things up just so beforehand - not going to be doing 1 hour Moog music where the drift would become a bigger concern.

I won't comment on the debate that ensued - some sounded serious and some maybe tongue in cheek, but I'm glad I found you guys down here. I will dabble in Eurorack also (already have just a little), but I think I'll be mainly focusing on 5U.

One more question for you (for now ), do you know the max voltage that was allowed to be sent through early 70s Minimoog oscillators vs vintage Model 10 vs new Moog Model 10? I hope that the Model 10 reissue has kept the same power profile as vintage.

I always loved the raindrop sound, and the UFO whooping sounds :0) like an old halloween SFX record. Thanks!

Less than a year after Keith got his Moog Modular, Bob extensively modified his 901 series oscillators and oscillator controllers. He made them much more stable, solid and reliable tuning wise. There are drawings of schematics of his modifications, which are dated February 1971. I have built a 901A oscillator controller and also a 901B oscillator from these drawings and here is the first time I fired them up and got them to work. Initially they didn't work because I discovered that the FET transistor - which I had bought over a year ago (in anticipation of doing all this sometime) and was still in it's 'anti-static' bag - was actually dead..! It probably originated from China...? I can't remember. Anyways, after installing a generic (the wrong) FET from my stock it all started making noises. Of course, being the wrong component it now won't calibrate according to the instructions but I did manage to tweak the calibration controls by ear to get it to play on one of the octave settings. When I manage to source a good FET of the correct type I'm sure it will all behave as intended - or at least I hope so...!

Here's my take on potentiometers....

I started building synths in 1976.
In 1982 I started my rack mount modular.
That build used some pots that were made by Alpha and carried the Mouser label... Worst pots I have ever used!

FFWD to 2003, I am building another modular synth.
CEM and SSMT based. This time I used PEC RV4N pots, which are a knockoff of the AB part. Those and some really expensive alumina substrate for coarse and fine pitch on the 3340 VCOs.

The alumina pots were $30 a pop back in 2003.

A couple of years later I tried the Alpha again, only this time they were great! Still in service after 18 or so years.

Then I bought a Voyager Performer Lunar Impact and saw that Bob started speccing the Alpha pots for the synths and Moogerfoogers.

The Dotcom uses the same high quality Alpha parts.

Difference in sound? No!
The pots have ZERO to do with sound in this case and most others.

The AB pots went extinct. The PECs got unreliable and now all we can get are made by Honeywell.

Technology advances in surface coatings have made the pot argument moot.

The pots you are used to seeing from AB are actually RV4N parts in linear taper, which are usually used in synths. PEC, Honeywell, RV4N.

I get the same feeling when apparently un-educated people call anything except AB cheap or undesirable. Same feeling as when people dis TL071/072/074 ICs...

These are superb parts if used correctly. Bob Moog wasn't a stupid man! He knew how to adapt. Others, not so much.

Roger

@ RogerFoote , are you responding to me?

Taiwan Alpha 9mm rotary potentiometers parts are good. No argument.

No, not at all!
I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular, just been hearing a lot of advice from people who do not design stuff over the last couple of months.

It is humorous, the ONLY people dissing Alpha or the TL07X line for example, are not even techs in most cases. It is even more humorous to hear people second guess Dr Bob on his parts choices!

I see you are using 9mm parts? In eurorack builds?
I use the 24mm Alpha parts. The analog sequencer I did used 16mm because I wanted 16 steps all in one row... The 16mm are also good.

Got a big bag of un-opened PEC RV4N 2 Watt pots. Think I will put them up on Ebay.

Phew! :0)

I hear you, totally agree!

I replace poor quality pots in Behringer eurorack gear I bought with Alpha. The Behringer spec's I've measured are really loose, with 'good enough' implementations. Four worst spec offenders are:

- 2 piece linear approximation of a log taper top with missing values where the two linear resistive elements 'splice' together.

- poor end resistance, with very rough element to terminal transition - shaky step function.

- missing low frequency damper, value drifts when you touch or let go the knob.

- high frequency damping viscous 'goop', is slightly elastic - exacerbates settling time.

Attached is the logo of the pot Behringer uses. I don't recognize it. Also a quick comparison of Bourne, Behringer and Alpha construction. Whoever makes those pots made them look almost exactly like Alpha, except the package retaining pins are in opposite corners. Deceptive.

If I could fit 16 or 24's that would be preferable :0) but there's no room for a larger part.

Sorry that was un-clear.

I rebuilt a bunch of Ibanez AD202 units... Talk about cheap pots, Oh My!
They are PC mount, Strike one.
They are crap quality, Steeeerike two!
Let's see... Strike three... Hmm

Okay, 2 out of 3 ain't bad!

Anyway, I used fly wired Alphas, there was barely room!

I had a Behringer dual mic pre that was made in Germany. The pots were actually good ones. But that was a long time ago.

I can see how you would replace those pots and get better performance in the Euro stuff. As long as you can work for free a little bit.

All Moog gear now uses Alpha 24mm. At least after, what 2002?
That was the date on my Lunar Impact Mini and it has Alpha.

All Foogers use 'em as well...

I hear a lot of "They switched to cheap pots" about Moog.
And you really can't design a panel for AB RV4Ns and swap in Alpha 24mm.
They have radically different rotation spans.
PEC, Honeywell and AB RV4Ns are around 315 degrees.
Alpha 24mm are 270 degrees.

If they had swapped them, they would have had to completely re-design the panels.

That is what tells me that they didn't just swap in Alphas, or the panel scales would not match. They must have used them from day one on the newer stuff, after 2002?

Anyway, pots have zero auditory impact unless they are really bad like the ones in your pics. On DC circuits like 1V/Oct, they will jitter. They will tend to creep if the Vistac grease is old and rubbery.

Since the turn of the century, pots, ICs, Diodes and Transistors got MUCH better than the old ones...

If you are re-building vintage Moog, you will use RV4N.

My Dotcom and Moon stuff use the same Alpha 24mm pots, no complaints from me!
I love Dotcom and Moon synths!

Good stuff Roger!

I thought about fly-wiring the Behringer circuits to 24mm, but the Alpha 9mm's are fine. For me, the work is quick and easy. my first job was a manufacturing tech at a minicomputer manufacturer in the 70's, so plenty of rework experience :0)

The SMT 9mm are super quick to swap. I have a 0.8mm and 1.6mm desoldering tip ready to clear the solder with as little heat as possible. Behringer PCB copper weights tolerate up to three reheats before I loose a pad, or split a barrel. So, it's got to work right the first time, or it's wiring time again.

Once I tested out a few Alpha's, they were fine for this application, and easily obtainable. The remaining Behringer parts are demonstrably adequate - at least to me, until I stumble over the next white-wash I have to do; probably jacks next. Hope it's not multi-throw rotary switches. That's going to hurt to source I expect.

It's scary how easy it is to be indifferent to quality until we're faced with a choice. Even then, we'll talk ourselves out of it if the perceived opportunity cost is too high.

Wrt Moog:

I have 12 moogerfoogers, a voyager, sub37, little phatty, and four slim phattys. Oh and a DFAM, SuBh, 2xMother 32's. I'm very happy with Moog! In fact, I ONLY got all this Behringer Moog-clone work stuff because it was a schematic retread of a technology I understood. I immediately saw a difference in instrument 'performance' - I hate that word, but use it as scalar proxy for multi-vectored quantity that is 'good quality', and 'good stuff'

I know low cost manufacturing when I see it; I spent a continuous 40 years in manufacturing rich production and engineering positions. :0)

I just wish I had the bucks for a re-issue System 55!
But I paid that much for my house!

Dotcom and Moon do a darn good job though, especially the sequencers!
I am glad Gert didn't do a 960 sequential controller, so now with a Dotcom 960 and both of Moon's larger sequencers, I am covered.

I think I am going to sell my custom Foote Modular sequencers.

and I still want one too! Full size, 5U, frigging fun!

So far the Moog stuff I own or have owned:
1- Voyager Performer Lunar Impact
1- Voyager RME
2- Mother 32
1- DFAM
4- of VX351, VX352 and CP251
3- Fooger pedals, LPF, 12 stage phaser, ring modulator

What I kept:
1- Voyager Performer Lunar Impact
3- Fooger pedals, LPF, 12 stage phaser, ring modulator
2-CP251

The Mother 32s were great but after a month or 2, I had to read the manual a lot to get back to work. Couldn't remember all the little keystrokes... At nearing 70, memory isn't as good as it once was.

DFAM, just didn't gel with it. Easy to get those tones with modulars or Minis.

The expansion slots on my 2 voyagers work with the cables that they sent, but using the 15' cable that was needed to make it usable, I got an audible ~3kHz tone like a backlight doubler leaking.

I sold that VX351/VX352 stuff because of noise and lots of these things didn't like being driven by the other stuff. I know I could do a buffer but wanted plug and play, not plug and pray.

So, I sold the RME and went exclusively to Moon modular and Dotcom. Those are happy working together, no thinking needed.

Haven't looked back, planning more Dotcom cabs.
I think I might re-house the Moon in Dotcom portable cabs since the quality is very good.

All that aside, I can see where these items would be killer in the right hands, maybe younger hands? Just not for me. I can get 3 tracks recorded in the time I figured out how to do stuff on the M32s.

Taking care of my wife with dementia leaves little time, can't waste any of it with hardware/software stuff as it is slower for me to use.

Roger

Sorry to hear that, this may help
https://alzsurvivor.com/coconut-oil-...-mary-newport/

A hair mineralogram test may help to see mineral imbalance
like too much aluminum, low magnesium and etc...

Just lost my dad to dementia and parkinson's. Sorry to hear you're dealing with it as well Roger.

The SubH, DFAM, M32 thing didn't interest me until I had a significant eurorack expenditure. I bought them because of my previous experiences with Moog, and a long history of respect for the engineering behind the brand. Now I use DFAM and SubH all the time, and M32's tend to do background accent sounds in the funky syncopated stuff I like. I use a quadrature VCO like Frames or Tides to modulate the four filters in them.

Then I play my Prologue on top.

It's a lot fun, and distracting. :0)