The Dangerous Monitor ST is so cool. Its what started me on a process. These 2 guys (Bob and Chris) and their team are brilliant. http://dangerousmusic.com/about-us/
At first glance I missed what this ST does. But after owning it and using it to its fullest, wow is all I have to say. It teaches you shit you would never have heard and thought about doing. A process that connects so many area's of your DAW and summing system.

The Dangerous Monitor ST - Dangerous Products - Dangerous Music

I then Invested in the Dangerous Master. This is another amazing product. Again, really cool ways to monitor . So, I begin a process of listening and monitoring. My thirst for gear starts growing. But now transparency becomes big on my list because I hear what gear actually sounds like. And, I notice changes when I add or remove something.
Phase, DAW phase. Now... things start making sense or lets say, I start understanding more about monitoring and how transparency is becoming a hug factor is hybrid summing.

Less becomes more. Subtle changes make big changed down the line..

Now I start thinking about headroom and faders and patchbays. But I don't want noise polluting my chain.

SSL XPatches become essential .

I get more gear and keep listening, patching and switching things around.

I invest in DSD to capture but eventually try a second DAW. The Monitor ST completes this seamlessly. I invest in a Prism Orpheus and complete the circle. 2 DAW's and analog in the middle.

The Neos was the last part to this. Its an amazing summing console. Very simple but unmatched for what I require.

So there you have it. I could go more into transparency and share things about gear, creating space and loudness war. How this system deals with transients. But thats another topic that I look forward to. Nothing better than learning.

To me, hybrid is a combination of pieces and a process that complete a circle without SRC and little if any dithering. Transparency and an independent monitor controller that connects an independent summing console to both side "DAW1, Hardware, DAW2" is an ear opener.

SPL and Dangerous Music have made this possible. So, that was what I wanted to say.

Cheers!

very cool, I'm reading over the sheet, thanks for posting.

Wow, this thread has turned into.... something else!!
I really don't want to escalate things anymore...
Anyway, I do have a sincere question for audiokid (no hidden agenda here): do you work in audio as your main profession? And if so, is there any site where I could hear your music or recordings that were made on your NEOS/Dangerous high end chain?
One things that drew me into this thread is that I owned an X-Desk a few years ago, was very happy with it's sound and features. I ended up selling it because it was way too much "desk" for me. It had too many features as I needed something much simpler. One of the many strengths of the X-Desk I feel is that you can really feel its heritage from the larger SSL consoles and their design philosophy in terms of flexible routings and other cool features. But I also feel the X-Desk excels fullest when part of a larger system including a patchbay and/or outboard eqs/comps which of course SSL also sells. I thought its sound was very neutral and punchy (people just love that term) and if something didn't sound good, it was due to my shortcoming as an operator. I have never used or seen a NEOS live but from the literature I have looked at, I think it's safe to say it has fewer features than the X-Desk. This doesn't say anything about sound quality which I obviously can't say anything about, but for some people the feature set of a product is important. I also share your enthusiasm for Dangerous gear. I feel they make some of the best products in the market at fairly reasonable prices. So I wouldn't mind hearing some of your handy work through my Dangerous Source.
thanks

I've been in the business a while.

Nice to read your thoughts on the XDesk. If you supply me with some tracks I would be happy to run them through a process.

I always thought high end is about "sound quality", not the price.
Thanks to the people like you, thinking high end is about the price, there are a companies they could still be on the market

please read one of the rewiews: SSL X-Desk

Neos looks OK. SSL too.
BUT, I would like you to know, "transparent" in mixing process is dedicated to "budget" interfaces (theit preamps are named "transparent").
You don't understand, that people looking for "special kind of noise" in SSL, NEVE, API.

You are "wrong thinking" in two dimensions.
1. comparing mixing to mastering
2. comparing classical trends with "rock, dirty sound" trends.

The price of these units it is not the point.
I'm sure the price of "units" depends of the manufacturers "marketing sales" and how big "warehouse" they have. If company "A" order 5 transformers will get the price level for each transformer much higher than manufacturer "B" who will order 500 transformers.

[QUOTE=Akysz;9529614] I always thought high end is about "sound quality", not the price.
Thanks to the people like you, thinking high end is about the price, there are a companies they could still be on the market

please read one of the rewiews: SSL X-Desk

Neos looks OK. SSL too.
BUT, I would like you to know, "transparent" in mixing process is dedicated to "budget" interfaces (theit preamps are named "transparent").
You don't understand, that people looking for "special kind of noise" in SSL, NEVE, API.

You are "wrong thinking" in two dimensions.
1. comparing mixing to mastering
2. comparing classical trends with "rock, dirty sound" trends.

The price of these units it is not the point.
I'm sure the price of "units" depends of the manufacturers "marketing sales" and how big "warehouse" they have. If company "A" order 5 transformers will get the price level for each transformer much higher than manufacturer "B" who will order 500 transformers.[/

[deleted by mod]. The majority of people using Dangerous summing gear are mixing.
Dangerous Testimonials - Dangerous Music

But if you have a transparent system, you can also add mastering products and learn more , do more. Finish and prepare mixes with mastering level. The Dangerous Master is what I also have inline with the Neos. It works just great.
Gear that distorts, adds colour can be inserted via db25 dsub between each channel.pre or post to and from any part of the chain, including recording. What you are saying doesn't make sense.

Majority of people using this kind of thing are well experienced in how gear adds colour to stems.

Again, its a different process that appears to be unfamiliar with some people in this thread?

which part of my post you don't understand?

I was talking about SSL XDESK and NEOS, not Dangerous.
I was talking about marketing issues about the prices
I was talking about your opinion that you use NEOS in mastering proces that's why it is better than SSL

Please do not try to put discussion on a different level.
Words like "Ridiculous" "doesn't make sense".
And talking about mastering level during mixing, too.

More changes in the music signal you can do by changing the position of the mic, or changing the playing dynamics than using 10 NEOS in a moment.

Yes, I do summing through the x-desk using lynx aurora converters and the stereo output goes back into the DAW.

Specs are here:

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/doc...User_Guide.pdf

SSL states that it's the same circuitry used in the AWS & Duality, just fewer features. Made in the UK.
From what I hear, I have no reason to doubt this.

Can we all calm down a bit?

@Audiokid - posting like this is not going to win any more users to your forums. In fact you are posting more here than you are there! Suburban Studios is (IMHO quite rightly) upset by something you posted, albeit flippantly, which was not cool. FWIW I think this alone is worth a public apology.

Anyone fancy keeping this back on topic, or should I just ask one of the mods to lock this thread as in all honesty I don't think it is really contributing that much to the wider community.

I'll look back in, and if anyone has any questions about X-Desk I'll be happy to post about that. Anything else I'm staying out of.

The X-Desk really doesnt "color" the sound. Its not based off of the 4K desks, its based off the 9K desk. Its pretty clean. Of course, the harder you hit the channel inputs, the more natural compression you get from the board.

As for converters that I use, I have an Avid Omni HD feeding my X-Desk. All of the channel inserts are ran to a patch bay for routing hardware EQs and Compressors. I also have a Lexicon PCM70 and a Yamaha SPX90 wired in for the 2 effects sends. My mix bus has a SSL 4kBus Compressor clone followed by a pair of Lindell PEX-500 passive eqs for final adjustments. That hits a Apogee PSX-100 converter then goes digitally into an Alesis Masterlink.

My setup sounds great me. I produce, record, and mix anything between rock and metal. ITB just doesn't sound right to me, but when i put the same mix on the X-Desk, my mixes have life.

As for the summing examples you said were spam. Nope, not to me. I listen to them before purchasing the X-Desk, got a live demo of the X-Desk from SSL at AES a few years ago, and everything I heard in those examples are true.

Again, Im sure the NEOS sounds great and clean, but that doesn't mean the X-Desk sounds inferior to it because its 7K cheaper. Its all about workflow.

If you want to educate people summing, then maybe the conversation should be how we bus out of our DAWs onto the summing console, or how we print the mixes off of the summing consoles, or hardware used on channels of the summing mixer.

Hi....
I compared both side by side and the Neos sounded better. It was more "open" and the transients sounded more natural..... But i did not bought it because of the silly price. One of my biggist mistakes maybe ;-)

Hey Audiokid. You really seem to be getting all that stuff we talked about:
Be succinct
Be relevant
Be precise
Be polite.
You have nailed them all. You'll be getting a smiley face soon if you keep this up.

[deleted by mod]

To Jim@SSL. Sorry you got involved. My apologies that this thread even exists and that I have kept it alive with my silly jokes. I merely joined in as a comic aside, to cast a light on how ridiculous the posting had become. I was finishing up editing a school concert I had recorded over the weekend, and was killing time while uploading a bunch of MP3s to the school server. I have not really been offended by Audiokid's FAS gag, but thought it made for a good running gag. (And it allowed for the addition of some nice pictures). [deleted by mod]

On a more serious note, as funny and tragic as many of the posts are, I feel that if they go unchallenged they might be confused with and actually pass for advice. As I mentioned earlier on, for the sake of human dignity, and for fear of such nonsense breaking the internet, I felt that I should respond. If it wasn't already abundantly clear, I also enjoy poking the bear every now and then, as the responses are quite entertaining.

PS. To anyone still crazy enough to be reading this thread, Jim is and always has been an exemplar of everything that a company rep should be on Gearslutz. Anyone capable of basic reading comprehension already knows this, however it should be reiterated when attached to a thread already so chock-full of crazy.
[deleted by mod]

The X-Desk goes to eleven, actually. Nothing more to discuss

Suburban Studios, George
An interesting POV, thank you for helping us get to this point.

If these fundamental principles of transparent summing aren't of interest to you or are not up for debate, then how can you be taken seriously when attempting to argue for a particular point of view. Especially when this thread is about the differences between the attributes of transparent processing and sonic quality.
Different systems have different strengths and weaknesses, but simply ignoring these differences, or saying one is better than the other without understanding why engineers choose a particular process, as well as the things they have in common is a strange thing for an engineer to do, especially when a choice between these systems could involve some serious expenditure.
If it's all down to one's personal bias or some form of bias group-think then this isn't going to be a discussion.

Suburban Studios, As always, stay classy!

My findings exactly. There is nothing wrong with the X-Desk, it's a great piece of equipment actually, except that the Neos sounds better in a way that I have not heard before. Due to its high voltage topology it is able to be more effortless with fast transients and big dynamic changes. You must hear it to know it. If this box existed with rotary faders it would be mine.

@lematrix: The price on the Neos in Europe has come down significantly lately. It's under 5800 euros now.

Can be anything, but for mixing OTB I often use Logic or Final Cut Pro, since I only really need a "player" that handles several tracks at one time without a hitch. I record back to an external recorder, so no I/O issues with the computer.

Although I love the faders and everything about the NEOS, I would like to see the NEOS without faders too, more like the MixDream . 120V MixDream/ NeosDream

smart!

Audiokid - if you are going to Quote me, please at least have the decency to quote me in full:
I would also ask that you check what the word "shill" actually means:
Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is nothing about my behaviour here that would fit this definition.

I don't (generally) get into public rants and finger-pointing, and I don't intend to here. Enjoy the rest of this thread, and I hope you manage to sell the equipment you have in the classified ads right now.

This thread is out of control. Let's finally answer the OP question:

On paper the Neos has the potential to sound better due to its 120V build. Whether or not this theoretical advantage ever comes into play for you depends on how you work and what kind of material you are working on.

I own the X-desk and find it to sound fantastic. I do not hear anything missing or mangled - my noise floor is super low. I do find my stereo imaging is better through it as a summer than ITB in ProTools. I have no complaints about sound quality, and plenty of praise for it.

I would love to upgrade it to the 120V spec of the Neos with a separate power supply based upon how happy I am with the RND Portico II MBP, which has 70V rail design and where I am noticing the difference it makes there in that design.

However, let's correct the mistaken assumption of the original question - the X-desk is not a direct competitor with the Neos, they are different things for different purposes. SSL makes something called the Sigma that is closer.

The X-desk was designed to be attractive to the summing crowd with its clever use of the ALT inputs to let those inclined sum 16 channels (20 if you are willing to use your efx returns for this purpose) HOWEVER it is meant to be the the hub of a build-as-you-go SuperAnalogue console. It has many features that the Neos doesn't have because they are built to do different things. That is why I would take 2 steps forward and 3 steps back if I traded my X-desk system for a Neos - I'd lose my ability to A/B monitoring sources, lose my 2 EFX sends, the ability to check mono compatibility, etc. . . Plus I can sum with true mono stems, where it seems the Neos is all stereo. This would pose a problem for me as ever mix of mine has several truly mono elements that get sent to outboard that needs to stay mono. Neos allows for more channels, but the SSL allows me the ability to expand with their X-Panda or an X-rack system, which I could do and still be ahead financially.

Audiokid imo muddies the waters to adding the Dangerous monitoring solution toolset to the Neos in order to cover those bases and blunt the pluses of the X-desk in the comparison. To make the comparison more fair, let's add the cost of the Dangerous monitoring solution on top of the cost of the Neos and then allow SSL a chance to build a competing system for summing with their tools. If you spend any time at all thinking about it you will find there are many ways to skin that cat using only SSL's offerings, and that it is likely that one of them will fit your needs quite well.

Despite Audiokid's statements to the contrary, I am not embarrassed to admit I use an X-desk in my studio and do not think anyone will consider my space a cheap amateur hobbyist room because of it.

^^ Yes, but the OP asked: "In terms of sonic quality which one you think would be better?" Within that frame the answer is not so difficult, despite all secondary considerations that could be used to defend SSL. It occurs to me that it is politically incorrect to give any other brand than SSL the thumbs up for any quality. Nobody is saying anything bad about SSL. Neos just sounds better, at least to some. Or is that a possible truth that is not allowed to exist?

I bought a Satellite and Centerpiece from Rupert. ;-)

Surprisingly, we have the appearance of a sane voice of simple reason amongst the echo-chamber of crazy that this thread has manifested into, within this dark corner of the internet.

The original poster never returned. This thread was brought to 'life' (kind of like Frankenstein), over 4 months after the original question was posed. Pretending this thread is about responding to the first post, is like pretending that this thread has significant and substantive informational content!


A short off-topic diversion: I believe that the moderation of this thread has also helped to promulgate the view that insecurity, nonsense, character and product assassination are all fine, as long as they are clothed in the veneer of an audio 'discussion'. Any reader of this thread before the culling of its more entertaining banter could have seen this thread for what it was. An ignorant and petulant attempt to trash a products reputation for the sake of personal self-justification and grand-standing, whilst also attempting to hold court in a way completely incommensurate with the intelligence quotient of its spokesperson.

This nonsensical content was counterbalanced by some dadaist injections of silly humor for the sake of pointing out the childish, patently incorrect and often contradictory nature of what was being presented here as some form of knowledge and real product debate. Despite this humor being seen as off-topic rambling or bickering, it was a half-serious attempt to point out how wrong it is to let nonsense pass itself off as knowledge, even if it sometimes looked like comic mocking. I would have hoped that the mods would credit readers with the minimal intelligence required to figure this out. On second thoughts, and judging by the quality of most of the posts thus far, maybe they're right....Anyway, despite appearances, comedy does have a serious point to make sometimes.

Removing/deleting the comical and 'critical' elements of this thread (that obviously pointed to the nonsensical ramblings of it's main 'participants') only helps to strengthen the view that the veneer is more important than substance. Gearslutz has its fair share of nonsense, which is fine I guess, but if mods are going to moderate, I ask that they be more mindful of the crucial subtext and read between the lines.

I do appreciate that mods have a fine line to walk and understand that they must be seen to not allow posters to make offensive remarks. This cuts both ways however, and the surface level 'offense' being policed is not the only form of serious offense on display here.

Forests and trees and all that....

In an attempt to cleanse this post of it's supposed 'offensive, off-topic' or 'bickering' elements, I believe that the moderation has only served to leave an empty shell that dilutes the informational content significantly. The carcass of the thread that now remains is not really a thread, it is the discarded remains of one. If it was to be moderated this extensively, couldn't it simply have been deleted? Do the mods really think that was is now left has greater and more useful informational content than what was previously here?

Anyway, I'll leave that for your consideration....

To those masochists who haven't fulfilled their quota of self-harm for the day, may you enjoy the continuing 'debate'

'Twas ever thus.....

I thought you carried ssl or is it cause the neos is ridiculously overpriced.

Into to mastering? Want to spend the money? Fine, go for the Neos. Want the sound of SSL? Go SSL. Logic would reason that the SPL would be more transparent based on it's application design. Though with Audiokid's description, not sure how transparent it is. I would rather do a rock, country, pop record on SSL over SPL. Just as I wouldn't master a project thru an SSL. SPL is good for mastering and esoteric music. Cool. Sure it's very good. Choose your tools well and then get to work. I'm sure for all the classical score movie work I do the SPL would be great however ITB for this purpose sounds very good and stem exports would be hell thru the SPL.
I wish posters would refrain from trying to give lectures. Have a thought great. Pontificating? Leave it anywhere but here.