So, when I do my 4038 in front, it's for a little thump and one layer of dimension. I give it a little 1176 love, and it helps things be chesty, but it's not the heart of my sound. It's just my mono room. That 4038 OH is sometimes a 77DX, or a U47 or some weird mic. That's my character mic. Gets a stiff EQ, and when it's up to me, a bunch of compression. The producer, who's mixing this, decided to go with no compression.

The majority of my sound is the Glynn Johns type OH, and the close mics fill in the presence. This OH set up was focused on the cymbals instead of the overall kit, so having that 4038 OH helped fill in the kit. Hey, it worked for the Beatles.

But I'm very reliant on my close kick and snare sounds, and really makes a point of dialing those in to sounds like a record on the way in. The longer I do this job, the more important it is to me to have a strong kick and snare game. And when I listen to records I made years ago, I hear that I wasn't on point in that area. It's been an important ingredient for so many hit records, and the careers of guys mixing them. The fact that I gave some songs to Clearmountain to mix this year, and he didn't have to use a snare sample, gave me immense pride, especially since that thing is way up in the mix, driving it. Hard to do that with distant mics.

I will try with my advanced audio CM14s (414eb clones) and let you know.

I had a really great alt rock drum and guitar tracking session today with one of my favorite local drummers. We used his Tama Starclassic Bubinga kit with a variety of cymbals and snare drums.

Kick1 - AKG D112 - Vintech x73i
Kick2 - Shure SM91 - Neve 33115
Sub - Speaker Mic - CraneSong Flamingo
SnTop - SM57 Unidyne III - Vintech x73i
SnSide - Royer 121 - CraneSong Flamingo
Hats - Neumann KM84 - Neve 33115
Crotch - Coles 4038 - SSL 4048E (little bump at 1.4khz, lpf, hpf and comp dimed w/fast atk)
Toms - MD421's - Neve 1272
Overheads - C12 clones - McAllister MP2 - Manley VariMu
Room - Schoeps CMC65 (in omni) - SSL 4048E (no EQ, comp dimed w/fast atk)

Below I've posted a sampler of today's session. In order of the tracks we used:
1. Ludwig LM402 Supraphonic 14x6.5"
2. Noble & Cooley Zildian Alloy 14x4.75"
3. Dunnett Classic Stainless Steel Custom (6-lug single-tension, single flanged hoops) 14x7"
4. Ludwig LB403 Super Brass 14x6.5"

What were you trying to keep the hihat out of?

The left room mic taped to the floor. The foam killed the direct “line of sight” to it, and my cymbal bags leaning against the CR window dampened the hf on those reflections.

Rock drums coming up this weekend:
- OH Gefell UM70, API pre
- kick RE20, API, Manley Voxbox EQ
- snare side RE20, API
- both toms RE20, API, Studer desk EQ
- snare top Neumann KMS105, API
- snare btm AKG C414XL-S, GreatRiver 500 pre, fig.-8 helps keep the kick beater out.
- FOK Neumann USM69i in X/Y, GR500, same distance from snare as OH, with kick and snare in one line
- cymbals Coles 4038, SPL GoldMike 1st gen. (position not final)
- rooms EV RE50 & 635a, set up as PZMs, Studer desk pre, EQ and bus limiter
- roland triggers on kick and snare
The FOK and OH alone would be plenty enough. But having options is nice.

Funny, I also have one RE50 and 635.

I absolutely LOVE using a stereo tube or FET Neumann as FOK in that position you have yours in! Especially with some Neve 2254/33609 style compression on it

I‘m recording it flat - which in itself already sounds pretty surprising - but I‘ll make sure to try that, even if they‘re only plugins.

I’ve only gotten to do it once, at Tiny Telephone with an SM69 tube and a Neve 2264/33314a. It was glorious! But otherwise I’m rocking the UAD2 plugins and loving them!

Recorded some drums tonight.

1972 Hayman Vibrasonic

Pleased with the result

Here is a snippet.

Oktava MK 102 (Overheads)
SM57 Snare
SM57 Tom
SM57 Floor TOM
Shure BETA 52 Kick
Realistic PZM Room



It's me playing

Here are some files from the session last week. Ended up liking the Stager SR-2N more than the Pearlman on mono OH.

Boy is it embarrassing to compare mixed vs. unmixed drums side-by-side. I always wonder if my tracking skills are completely off. The floor mic was clearly a little too far and the pre was set up too hot. Snare in the picture is not the actual snare from the recording, but the positioning of the mics is the same. What you'll hear is a Slingerland COB snare.

Please note there are no ambiance mics in the unmixed recording, as they really cluttered everything up without any HPF or mid cut.

I'm always open to learn and hear what others have to say, so if you have any constructive criticism to share, be my guest!

Kick: Sennheiser e902 > Daking Mic Pre/EQ > Prism Orpheus
Poke mic (kick out): AKG D200E > RME Fireface 800
Snare top: Shure 545SD Unidyne III > Daking Mic Pre/EQ > Prism Orpheus
Snare btm: Shure SM57 > RME Fireface 800
Tom: CAD Audio M179 > Iron Age Audioworks QPP > RME Fireface 800
Floor: Lauten Audio LS-308 > Iron Age Audioworks QPP > Prism Orpheus
OH Center: Stager SR-2N > Phoenix > Stam Audio SA-76 rev A > Prism Orpheus
OH-L: Beyerdynamic MC 930 > Silver Bullet 1 > Prism Orpheus
OH-R: Beyerdynamic MC 930 > Silver Bullet 2 > Prism Orpheus
Room: Pearlman TM-1 > Prism Orpheus
Hall: Langevin CR3A > Prism Orpheus
Thrash mic: Western Electric 633A > Iron Age Audioworks QPP > Overstayer Modular Channel > RME Fireface 800

From this weekend's session, some folky stuff, some power-pop. House kit, a '64 Ludwig Champagne Sparkle, assorted snares for different tunes: Slingerland Radio King, Ludwig Supraphonic, Tama Superstar.

Mics:

BD1: Beyer M88
BD2: Shure Beta91 (for some additional tight attack)
SNo: Sennheiser 431
SNu: Oktava MK012
Tim: Sennheiser 431
Tom: Sennheiser 431
OHL: Neumann U67
OHR: Neumann U67
OHM: Coles 4038
KIt/Wurst: Coles 4038
Room (not pictured) Cascade Fathead Blumlein

Bouncing some snippets shortly!

Hey there! May I please ask what type/model of stand that is that you’re using for the Coles 4038? Also is that a 4038SA stand adaptor your using with it? Thanks!

It looks like a Coles 4072 Stand Adaptor?

Tbh I'm not sure what brand the stands are (bought them used), but they're sturdy single boom arm with heavy screw-on counter weights. The black extension is K&M 21431 Mini Boom Arm. With a standard 4071b adapter for the mic

appreciate the info, jj.

i have been trying this lately with my coles and enjoying the extra dimension i'm getting. i dig what you are doing and why.

the coles really helps add some heft to the center of the kit but also added some extra ambience since it's back a bit. previously, i had it really close and low or right above the kit as a mono overhead that got a lot of compression and eq.

just recorded a round of stuff with my band at our place in detroit and ended up using r88 as a close overhead with the coles out in front. we were tracking live in the same room with an old champ for the guitar and aguilar amp and 2x12 for bass.

vocals were run live into the room in a small PA with sm7, then split to my vocal chain. daking pre/daking limiter.

i used these lauten ls308 mics i just got on guitar and bass cabs and was blown away at how isolated they are. they get almost zero bleed from anything else in the room. also had a m160 on the guitar amp that i used to feed a moog delay to create sort of a fake stereo guitar image from the one guitar part.

drums were an early ayotte kit with meinl byzance cymbals. tuned mostly wide open.

kick. telefunken m82 into api 512v and daking limiter
snare. beyer 201 into api 512v and daking limiter
toms. clip on sennheissers into daking 500 series
overheads. AEA R88mk2 into john hardy M1
center kit: beyer m160 into meris preamp
low kit: bock u195 into chandler tg2
front of kit/close room: coles 4038 chandler tg2

far room: 414 into daking pre and daking limiter

the m160 center of the kit was sent to a meris preamp that has a pedal level send and return, this fed a BAE drive pedal and sometimes another moog delay and i printed it as sort of an extra effect channel.

i played around with where the coles was and it really changed the length of the snare and kick as well as how much low end it added to the kick and toms. when i had it lower to the ground, it was almost too much so many times it ended up maybe a foot higher than the top of the toms.

going back out in a few weeks to do another round and going to bring my stager mics with me this time and add them to the mix.

we are also going to build a cloud above where the drum kit sits to tighten up some of the reflections the r88 is getting from the low ceiling.

the drums just sound the best acoustically in that spot...and it allows me to get the other instruments balanced fairly well so whatever bleed i do get sounds great.

that is a glorious sound.

in a perfect world i'd have a sm69 tube into neve pre and limiter in front of the kit...and some coles for the room. mono u67 in the center of the kit. d12 on bass drum. maybe a 57 or 201 by the snare.

done.

I start tracking for my new "Greedy Beats 2" next week - 4 solid days of many mics, tons of drums and cool compression. I just wanted to thank everyone involved in this thread for their contributions as I'm going to re-read it over the weekend for some sexy positions. I just purchased both Grace stereo bars and some e22's to join the artillery.

One-day jazz album tracking yesterday; barely enough time to grab a couple of photos with my phone.

All preamps were Trident A-range.

Kick beater: Beyer TG D70
Kick front: Soyuz 023
Snare top: KM86
Snare bottom: Beta181
OHs: Soyuz 01fet
Toms: M88
Wurst: EV 635A->1176

An afternoon of experimentation.
With:
M88: Kick
Horch Fet : kick 2
Coles: FOK
Snare: M201
Bottom of snare: Unidyne
Wurst: AEA N22
Hi Hat: km85i
Toms: E22’s
Stereo OH: U67
Mono OH: Coles
Middle of room Blumlein: AEA 44C
Corners of room: Bock 251
Old church hall and heavy drum stage with “drum brella”.
Dayton Rogers with Noble and Cooley plus Luddy 400, K&D all wood and a Gretsch so far.
Hi Hats have been New Beat and Instanbul. Long way to go yet….

Very excited to hear how this turns out!

We needed to retrack drums on one tune of the last production, fully aware we wouldn‘t be able to reproduce the former setup 100%. So we adapted it a bit, keeping the essential elements similar, changing some others. The closed 20“ kick and different snare seemed a better fit for that song. And the room mics were left out completely.

- kick: D12vr in passive mode
- snare top: KM86 cardioid
- snare bottom, toms: Beyer TG D58, all -> Studer 963

- mono OH: Beyer M160 -> Manley Voxbox, softest gain setting. (mixing the other songs, I ended up using the mono OH only to feed the drum reverb(s), hence the choice of a ribbon mic into a „slow“ preamp.)

- stereo F.O.K.: Neumann SM69 (last time was a USM69i)
- cymbals: Coles 4038, all -> GreatRiver 500

F.O.K., OH and cymbal mics are all the same distance from the snare.

EDIT: forgot to mention the kick and snare trigger mics. Not really sonically impressive, but very useful at mixdown.

My 35 year old Shure SM81 mics in x- y
I used to go to space psir all the time, but the XY sounds so good and balanced, I don’t think i will go back.

That's great - I love SM81's!

Are those Rycote cradles you have them mounted in? If so which ones?

Hi James,
The shock mounts are made by Rode…. I bought them online at Sweetwater.
I couldn’t find any specs on them to make sure they would fit the SM81, but they fit perfectly!
A little pricey, but should be good for a long time!!

Using a U 89 in OMNI for the overhead on the drum kit

did three more songs with my band in detroit right before christmas.

tracking drums, guitar, bass, vocals all live in the same room.

ayotte drums with meinl cymbals. guitar is old fender champ with m160, bass is direct through a jad freer capo pedal and aguilar cabinet mic'd with 414.

drum mic setup:

kick---shure beta 56
snare--beyer 201
rack toms--audio technica 4047 above two rack toms
floor toms--audio technia 4047 above two floor toms
overhead--aea r88 ribbon
mono overhead over floor toms--coles 4038
front of kit---stager sr1 pointed down at bass drum
mono kit---beyer m160 pointed at snare hanging over batter of bass drum

room--aea r88
room far--neuman u89

all close mics and overheads into sytek preamps
stereo room into john hardy m1 preamps
far room into universal audio 610 tube preamp with clone LA2 compressor

all recorded through UA Apollo 16 2nd generation into LUNA.

this is me just playing drums to get sounds and get some exercise...no eq or processing on tracks, just a parallel drum buss with UAD FATSO squashing the living hell out of everything and blended up under dry drums and a UAD pultec on the whole mix adding some 60hz and top end.

love u89's.

often use mine as mono overhead or room mic. really need to get another so i have a pair.

cool room.

i still love sm81s too. i need to use them more often. i love them on snare and toms too.

i just got used to doing my stereo aea88 on overheads because its so easy to place.

amazing setup and room. love the drum umbrella.