As an SSL AWS900 owner, I must say that I really like the SSL and it's been a very valuable tool to me. As far as AWS vs ICON... I'd buy either one depending on what you want. Both impress clients. One is instant recallable while the other is manual TR. The ICON would impress my post clients but my music clients would prefer the SSL.

They are all good. Just depends on what you like/want. I'd buy the SSL again if I were to start all over again.

My $0.02's worth....

Quote:"Sounds like you like the Icon. But, were you impressed with it enough to warrant scrapping your AWS900 purchase plans?"

-A 777 Subject.



I do like the Icon. I like it alot. The demo. I had recently really made a difference in my opinion of the Icon. Enough to want to set up two control rooms. One with an AWS900, & the other with an Icon. Right now today, at this hour I'd purchase an AWS900 first. But, if digidesign opened up the Icon to work with Logic Pro it could tip me to purchase the Icon first. I'll only have the budget to purchase one, or the other in the short term so I'm splitting hairs right about now.

Rob G..

Rob G,

What's so important about Logic Pro?

A 777 Subject.

I am guessing he does not want to purchase Protools HD.

ITB is tough with acoustics instruments. If it's post it works. Electronica it works. Hvy rock, rock , traditional, funk lacks IMHO. I believe the SSl would be a better choice for the latter.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

A 777 Subject, & mtstudi@pacbell,

My primary reason for needing to be able to control Logic Pro is not personal. It's because I have producer's that work with me that like working in Logic Pro so I don't want to put a controller in front of them that they can't take advantage of. I personally have navigated away from using Logic Pro. So it's a case of providing hardware that my whole production team can utilize. Having 24 channels of automated summing in an AWS900 puts the 'cherry on the top of the cake' for me because I seem to be able to get the sound I want, & am used to getting with greater swiftness in the analogue realm for some types of tracks/instruments. But, on the other hand I can get the same type of sound ITB with certain plug-ins, or by treating the signal differently prior to jumping into the digital realm. Use of the Icon makes working in Pro Tools like driving a Rolls Royce/Maybach/Bentley. The Icon is solid, & the controls are 'silky' smooth(and this I can tell you from only a brief demo.). If you work exclusivly in Pro Tools as I'm currently doing then the Icon is hands down the winner of the ITB contest. If you still enjoy analogue, or need to control Pro Tools hardware with other types of software then you have no choice other than to look elsewhere outside of using the Icon. To me the Rolls Royce/Maybach/Bentley of the hybrid (analogue + digital) realm is the AWS900 with the AMS-Neve 88R coming in close behind it. The AMS-Neve 88R can control Pro Tools, & Nuendo but to my knowledge not Digital Performer, or Logic Pro. A 48 channel AMS-Neve 88R W./racks of 1081, 1084, & 1073 remote controlled units in a tracking/mix room with a Digidesign Icon in a overdubbing/mix room seems like an ideal combination within a two room facility. But, if you need one console that does analogue, & controls DAW's then I'd say get a SSL AWS900.

Rob G..

I'm with ya. I was seriously considering the AWS900, but I ended up with an Audient. It came down to price, it was about 1/3 of the cost.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

I was just at NAMM this weekend in Anaheim and I finally sat through an ICON demo pretty impressive....but not as easy to just sit down and start mixing on as I would of thought. I would be it takes a while for a visiting producer/engineer who hasn't used one to get used to it....(just my speculation).

However, I was sort of shocked by the statistics that were spit out by the digi sales guy it appears that there have been 500 ICON/D-Command and 400 ICON/D-Control (the big boy) sold.....WOW! I was VERY surprised that many had been sold...

mtstudi@pacbell, & mojava,

Interesting motivations, & perspectives.

Rob G..

If the visiting engineer knows Pro Tools (especially the automation) and if the studio has an assistant for him who knows the D control then I can assure you the visiting engineer will be using it in no time at all.

The basics are there ... faders ... next he needs to know how to focus a channel ... takes about 1 minute to explain and understand.

You show him how to bank and how to switch the knobs from inserts to sends. and voila .... he's up and running.

All other things he can ask the assistant as they come along.

I've done it ... assist mixers who had never touched the D control. By the end of day one they are fully capable of using the basic features.

Of course the controller has A LOT of features and ways of doing things..... which then of course need 'deeper' study. In that aspect it isn't any different from anything else with such a gamma of features.

same here. but if SSL made an AWS w/dynamics, stereo channels and more encoders in the center section (20 or something, to take care of EQ or comp at one glance - wouldn't have to have separate EQ/Comp sections like Icon), boy would everything change (for me).

i bet the future brings an AWS with more DAW control, and Icon comes out with racked analog stuff. AMS-Neve's been pretty quiet recently also...

but yes, to decide right now would be a tough one.

Jermaine Dupree just ordered his ICON here in Hot-Lanta...so stand by for some more tracks to count.

I wish the mixes I do in ITB had the same depth as the ones I do on a console. So far I have not had a great experience ITB. A lot of my fellow engineers express their frustrations with ITB also. So I know I'm not the only one.

Live drum kits just seem to flatten, electronic drums in most circumstances don't require as much outboard compression and EQ (parallel, inserted and Stereo Buss) IMHO. Also, adding a plugin compressor with gain reduction reduces bit resolution.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

I think by now just based upon sheer number of sales more major music has been done on the ICON. But, that could change if what I'm hearing about a soup'd up AWS900+(possibly 48 channels with dynamics on each channel) coming out is true.


A 777 Subject.

I've seen so many posts on "how many major label songs were mixed ITB", and "how many major label projects produced on the AWS, etc"..... Nobody seems to ever ask "How can the "insert product here" help ME get better mixes?"... I can tell you major label projects that were tracked on a 002 and mixed ITB, but it won't help anyone mix better...

Has anyone compared the mixes done on a ICON D-Control vs. the D-Command?

I know that my C24 mixes sound better than my Pro Control mixes.


and…



What if I do a mix on an ICON and recall it later without the ICON.

Will it sound the same?

Maby someone with both can do a null test...

HAHAHAHAH! Very funny, Produceher! Great to have some humor in this kind of thread....

About the subject, I don't really think comparing the AWS900 to the ICON is very fair. I'm sure there are lots of people on both sides of the fence who do great mixes and it just comes down to one's working style and preferences.

I do miss the immediate recall that PT ITB mixes can do.... BUT my clients wouldn't be that happy without the SSL sound so....

I guess there's no definite answer for me

true that.

Why is'nt it fair. Both consoles are highend. The point of this whole post is to make an examination of what major players are using which console. Now thinking that using an Icon over a Pro Control is going to make your mixes sound different is stupid. If you compare Pro Control to Icon it would have to be which one allows your workflow to be enhanced. With the Icon vs. AWS900/900+ it's more examining the trend of what the 'The Big Boys/Girls' are doing, how their doing it, & why their doing it. If we observe alot of AWS900/900+ usage then that tells us that major label production has'nt totally lost it's love for analogue, it just wants to do analogue on a smaller scale whether it be technical capacity driven, or budget driven.

Rob G..

probably not. if you use a Dangerous Monitor for both recalls, maybe - but if you use an X-mon for the Icon and for example, use the onboard monitor section on a Procontrol it's likely to sound different! heh

please don't kill me this is just a theory:

i have a feeling the Icon will continue winning out saleswise because of instant recall, and it's likely to be cheaper than the new AWS.

i remember the first time i heard an SSL desk in the early 80s. i couldn't believe how anyone could mix on something that sounded like that, but automation and recall won out.

i know many love the sound of old Es, but my theory is that they learned to mix with them and they then became the standard. had API or Trident offered reliable automation at the same time, i think things would've evolved differently. we ended up buying a couple of Vs w/FF in the 80s because (imho) they sounded better, but not by all that much. also imo, SSL beat Neve to the punch. as i recall, since then Neve has always been playing catch up.

You can't balme studio's for installing icons. There they are sitting on a 12 year old Neve, starting to cost on maintainance, the studio rate is down to £400-500 a day, now they should be upgrading to a new SSL/Neve, however at that studio rate it isn't going to happen. But wait! Sell your Neve second-hand for whatever you can get (hell you maybe lucky to get 30-40k for it as long as it's not too dogged, lot of idiots out there will pay that for a console only to understand it will cost about half that amount each year to keep it working properly), you already have pro-tools so you know how that works, invest about £60k (bearing in mind you already have 40k back from the Neve) and you are up and running with the latest thing, still can command the £400-500 rate and can claim to be cutting edge in the process. Add to this that the latest stuff out of Digidesign is by far it's best efforts to date. Clients are probably more likely to want to use a brand new shiney Icon than a duffed up old Neve/SSL. Interesting too see just how quick both Neve and SSL are to launch another top line analogue desk. Sure you might like mixing on an old Neve/SSL that's assuming it's in good condition, it's not so inspiring when things are going wrong with it or you are the one trying to upkeep it and make a profit, but then maybe you have a day job.

Regards to all


Roland

Ok folks I’m not trying to sound like a schmo, however here are a few points.

First of all, I have both consoles. A Real Big SSL and an ICON. I love working on the SSL, and The ICON is an amazing Desk as well.

Second. Please understand I can mix on BOTH and 99.999999999999999999% of the world cant tell the difference. Sorry but it’s the truth. I did a little test a while back and took a pretty well written song and did a mix on the SSL. Then I took the same files over the Gold room which has the ICON and did a mix. I used some outboard gear on the Icon IE. Fatso for drum stems the Manly stuff on the lead TC system 6000 for verb ETC. Most of the same outboard I used in the SSL Room. The result. I was the only who could pick out the SSL mix 10 out of 10 times blind. Why you might ask? Only because we had a tiny problem with our 826 cards and one side of the mix was about 1 half of a DB lower than the other. I have corrected the problem and now if I recalled the mix I doubt even I could tell the difference. I also have all the Waves SSL Stuff in the ICON room. This all being said I did not like the ICON at first. Took 3 projects, now I prefer to work in that room. Why? Well mainly speed. Being able to pull in different templates, recalls, and general speed. Now don’t get me wrong. I still love The Grey Room which has the SSL. It Kicks, however for mixing the ICON as of Version 7.2 just works more efficiently. Sound wise I still say “ Write A Better song!”, “Learn to sing better”, “Learn to play your Instruments Better”, and most important “Learn to freaking mix better”, and don’t worry so much about SSL this Or ICON that. Focus on the talent and learn to make great music in spite of equipment, not because of it. You might just find out why you got in the business in the first place. Thanks for letting me rant

Regards Skip Burrows, Sunrise Sound Studios
www.sunrisesound.com

great post.

have a question: on the Icon, doesn't the video monitor placed in front of your speakers mess with the sound/acoustics? i see you have several nearfields.

the answer must be no, since you can do indistinguishable mixes on the Icon and SSL, but when i've measured the freq. response in my room, even if the video monitor is a little in front of the sprks., the graph starts looking like the rocky mountains.

i'm stuck between an AWS or an Icon, and that's one of the things that concerns me about the Icon. if i went the Icon route i'd probably get a 16 fader so i could pull the monitor to the side (out of the way of the speakers), though i'd prefer a 32. do you think this a real concern?

hope the question makes sense. thank you.

Nope look at the possition. The Speakers are Ubove the Mon. Perhaps a bit when doing surround but i simply reference. Like any mixer should. Remember that in the SSL Room the surface causes spater off the desk as well. Dont let that be a factor in your thinking process. Purchase what will do the most for the way you work as well as where the indusrty is going!

Regards, Skip Burrows
www.sunrsiesound.com

thanks skip.

I think Skip summed it up well.

I think people should start to get used to it, as far as I know SSL and Neve are not selling large format analogue consoles at the moment (although I dare say if someone had the readies and put them on the table you could still order a VX or a 9000). The recent sale of both of these companies was due to the collapse of the high end, and both of the new owners appear to have restructured and taken them in a different direction. Now the consoles that are emerging as the leaders in the new media market are things like Euphonix system 5, Studer Vista, Pro-tools Icon, possibly the Digico's too. It is a shame some like Amek didn't survive, it will be interesting to see if SSL and Neve can adapt far enough to challenge at the top again, though this must be difficult as the speed of the evolving market is relentless at the moment.

Regards



Roland

It seems some folks are SO good here, that they can mix a record on an SSL 9000 and then turn around and mix the same record in Cubase on a Korg 1212 card and it sounds just as good as the SSL mix. Why? The answer is equipment has NOTHING to do with it. All this followed by; well I used such and such mic and such and such mic pre.

Hardware companies, stop making high-end gear.
Engineers, sell your outboard gear.
Consumers, don't listen to music it is nothing but static.

IMO the right tool can help expedite and improve.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

That doesn't suprise me. I get reasonably the same results whatever gear I use, sometimes it is a little harder work and like anyone else I like to use the best I can. However I see a lot of people talk about this pre, with this mic and so on and I agree with William Wittman and have to say its total crap. For years I and most of my colleagues have used the pre's that come with the desk. The only reason today I have outboard pre's is that I don't always use a desk and I have placed an order for a Crookwood remote mic amp to provide myself with a very high quality, elegant solution.

Look at it this way, vintage and esoteric mic's like ELAM 251's, Korby convertables, C12's, U47's etc have had their prices go through the roof in recent times. This price rise isn't driven by the comercial studio's or engineers in particular, its the demand for them from the weekend warriors, semi-pro's, writer's with home studio's whom have convinced themselves in order to get that "hit" sound they need to use this gear, manufacturers have also pushed this same myth. The truth is it takes a knowledge of sound, music, instruments, talent in front of the mic and experience, the gear is a small factor.

Regards


Roland