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SSL AWS 900 with Nuendo - anyone?
Old 21st November 2009
  #1
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
SSL AWS 900 with Nuendo - anyone?

Hello all,

I am considering getting a brand new AWS 900 SE for use with my Nuendo DAW. Has anyone here had any experience with this combo? I'm looking for examples of your workflow when recording and mixing. How do you like the remote implementation? Etc etc. Any viewpoint from anyone who has worked with this combo is greatly appreciated!

Atle
Old 22nd November 2009
  #2
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I use the AWS900+SE with Nuendo, but I also have a Euphonix MC PRO as a editor. The AWS employs Mackie Control for the remote, it is somewhat more limited than the HUI interface for use with ProTools. The new software has improved the interface quite a bit, but it still takes a bit of getting used to.

I use it mostly for writing faders, Pans, Mutes, and AUX sends, it does that very well. All the plugin editing happens on the MC PRO. The center screen doesn't do anything, but show timecode with Nuendo. Still the analog summing and the Awesomation and Total Recall, make the console a great centerpiece. Monitoring is awesome on the AWS. And you get a free SSL bus compressor
Old 22nd November 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks, Michael! Not sure about the Bus Compressor being free...

Do you ever use its preamps, eq's and channel dynamics? How are your routing set up?

Thanks a lot for sharing
Old 22nd November 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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Yes I do. Specifically for mic comparisons etc. The pres in the AWS sound better to me that the pres in the 4000 from what I remember. I have not done a direct comparison though, this is just my slowly fading gray matter talking.

The first 24 inputs from the tracking room are normalled to the AWS, so I can easily set up 10-12 vocal mics and compare them all with the same mic pre. I love the channel dynamics on snare, so sometimes I track an extra track with that comp on it or use during the mix.

All I/O of the AWS is showing up on my patchbay. I think that is a must for this console in order to use all it's capabilities. The only inputs that are not on the patchbay is EXTERNAL A#4 which is directly hooked up to a DVD player for surrond playback.

The line ins are normalled to one of the Euphonix 24 channel D/A converters and also normalled in Nuendo so those outputs in Nuendo show up on the SSL line ins for analog summing.

The SSL DIRECT outs are normalled to a Ephonix A/D converter and also back into Nuendo to record 12 stereo stems during the mix and also to track with any effects the musician might bring in (Xrouting on the SSL).

The stereo bus goes through a bunch of "mastering" gear (STC-8, Massive Passive, API 5500, Chandler Zener, Chandler Curve Bender, and some "private" gear) and then back through the Crane Song HEDD into Nuendo.

The 8 Bus outs are just showing up on the patchay, as well as the REC outs, so they can be routed where needed.

I have the Kurzweil KSP-8 normalled to two of the AUX sends and two stereo returns of the KSP-8 normalled to 2 ECHO returns in the AWS, so that way I can dial up a quick reverb and delay or chorus for tracking, if needed.

The FB outs are normalled to A: studio headphones, B: studio speakers. This is one great feature of the AWS, you can route anything to the phones or studio speakers.

The actual headphone mix happens in Nuendo (lantency free) and gets sent through the FB system to the Talent. That means he headphone mix gets recalled with the project setup and I don't have to redo it on the analog side, even though with the Total Recall it would not be too much of a PITA.

Hope this helps.
Old 22nd November 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Michael, this is so great! Thank you for taking the time for this in-depth description.

I guess I am not (at all) on the same gear budget as you, so if I am to buy this I am hoping to use it for as much as possible, not only summing.

A few more questions, if you can bare - if anyone else has experience with this setup, please feel free to chime in!

Do you use the pres for recording also, do you find them good enough?
Do you record "through" the board, I mean with the direct out? If so, how do you solve the monitoring during overdubs?
Won't there be a chance for feedback when you use the Nuendo monitoring? I mean, does not the AWS900 feed the directs out also when you are listening to line in, and if you accidentally hit the rec button...?

Sorry to bother with all these questions. Hope they do not bore you too much! :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
Yes I do. Specifically for mic comparisons etc. The pres in the AWS sound better to me that the pres in the 4000 from what I remember. I have not done a direct comparison though, this is just my slowly fading gray matter talking.

The first 24 inputs from the tracking room are normalled to the AWS, so I can easily set up 10-12 vocal mics and compare them all with the same mic pre. I love the channel dynamics on snare, so sometimes I track an extra track with that comp on it or use during the mix.

All I/O of the AWS is showing up on my patchbay. I think that is a must for this console in order to use all it's capabilities. The only inputs that are not on the patchbay is EXTERNAL A#4 which is directly hooked up to a DVD player for surrond playback.

The line ins are normalled to one of the Euphonix 24 channel D/A converters and also normalled in Nuendo so those outputs in Nuendo show up on the SSL line ins for analog summing.

The SSL DIRECT outs are normalled to a Ephonix A/D converter and also back into Nuendo to record 12 stereo stems during the mix and also to track with any effects the musician might bring in (Xrouting on the SSL).

The stereo bus goes through a bunch of "mastering" gear (STC-8, Massive Passive, API 5500, Chandler Zener, Chandler Curve Bender, and some "private" gear) and then back through the Crane Song HEDD into Nuendo.

The 8 Bus outs are just showing up on the patchay, as well as the REC outs, so they can be routed where needed.

I have the Kurzweil KSP-8 normalled to two of the AUX sends and two stereo returns of the KSP-8 normalled to 2 ECHO returns in the AWS, so that way I can dial up a quick reverb and delay or chorus for tracking, if needed.

The FB outs are normalled to A: studio headphones, B: studio speakers. This is one great feature of the AWS, you can route anything to the phones or studio speakers.

The actual headphone mix happens in Nuendo (lantency free) and gets sent through the FB system to the Talent. That means he headphone mix gets recalled with the project setup and I don't have to redo it on the analog side, even though with the Total Recall it would not be too much of a PITA.

Hope this helps.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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GYang's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Nuendo user here.
During evaluation of similar setups (Nuendo + X) I went through SSL AWS, SSL Matrix, Tonelux, D&R, Rupert Neve 5088, API 1608, as well as, some vintage consoles options.
For DAW work I never found that console with integrated DAW control does it better than either smaller dedicated controller (if task doesn't require extreme use of DAW possibilities) or WK-Audio ID controller for real job (and impressive look).
So, analogue summing is by far the most critical part of evaluating choice + scalability of the system and quality of options.
Despite the fact that there is no apparently inferior or weak sonic paths among strong names on scene, nuances are there and to my ears preference can be rather easily judged on that.
Tonelux and Neve 5088 delivered the best overal sonics, with API clearly very good, on par with them in its own flavor. Modern SSL sounds clean and professionally up to any task, but lacks finer elements of character and sonic robustness of competing consoles.
I didn't find that functionality of AWS adds any particular advantages in DAW + good analogue summing over mentioned approach of DAW controller + console&best analogue sonics, so I wouldn't accept such kind of compromise.
If you prefer it to keep it in one package, than there are no options and no much sense in debating the subject.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang ➑️
Nuendo user here.
During evaluation of similar setups (Nuendo + X) I went through SSL AWS, SSL Matrix, Tonelux, D&R, Rupert Neve 5088, API 1608, as well as, some vintage consoles options.
For DAW work I never found that console with integrated DAW control does it better than either smaller dedicated controller (if task doesn't require extreme use of DAW possibilities) or WK-Audio ID controller for real job (and impressive look).
So, analogue summing is by far the most critical part of evaluating choice + scalability of the system and quality of options.
Despite the fact that there is no apparently inferior or weak sonic paths among strong names on scene, nuances are there and to my ears preference can be rather easily judged on that.
Tonelux and Neve 5088 delivered the best overal sonics, with API clearly very good, on par with them in its own flavor. Modern SSL sounds clean and professionally up to any task, but lacks finer elements of character and sonic robustness of competing consoles.
I didn't find that functionality of AWS adds any particular advantages in DAW + good analogue summing over mentioned approach of DAW controller + console&best analogue sonics, so I wouldn't accept such kind of compromise.
If you prefer it to keep it in one package, than there are no options and no much sense in debating the subject.
All valid points, even though "the best overall sonics" is based your personal opinion. Other ears might like something different.

Every analog solution has it's own sound. I like a lot of them, but personally want to have the least coloration when summing/mixing. I introduce color on the way into the DAW and don't want to be stuck with a certain "sound" when mixing. In the "old" days I normally used a Neve or API type console for tracking but always an SSL for mixing.

The AWS controls plenty of DAW functions and for in depth editing, there is still the mouse, if you don't want to invest in a dedicated controller (which can be had used for around $7K in the case of the MC Pro). On the other hand there are a loty more functions (analog inserts etc.) on the console than in a controller. I think it's best of both worlds, even though the price tag is quite up there. I also found that during the workshops it's a lot easier to explain signal flow with the analog console than with the dedicated controller, people seem more familiar with the analog terms.

Your argument for a dedicated controller (with faders etc.) plus any analog summing set up makes total sense, definitely a solution to consider.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Michael, this is so great! Thank you for taking the time for this in-depth description.

I guess I am not (at all) on the same gear budget as you, so if I am to buy this I am hoping to use it for as much as possible, not only summing.

A few more questions, if you can bare - if anyone else has experience with this setup, please feel free to chime in!

Do you use the pres for recording also, do you find them good enough?
Yes and yes. They are actually great sounding pres. They are, however very "neutral" sounding. So if you are looking for color, check into outboard pres.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Do you record "through" the board, I mean with the direct out? If so, how do you solve the monitoring during overdubs?
I bring back a stereo mix on two faders and bring back a headphone mix on two faders (all set to 0dB). From there you can send the Cue mix to the headphones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Won't there be a chance for feedback when you use the Nuendo monitoring? I mean, does not the AWS900 feed the directs out also when you are listening to line in, and if you accidentally hit the rec button...?
Don't hit the Record button heh. Actually no, your headphone mix in Nuendo does not have an external input and you can decide not assign an input to the MIX channel in Nuendo, if there is a chance for the RECORD button to be pushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Sorry to bother with all these questions. Hope they do not bore you too much! :-)
No problem.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Atle

just looked at your studio (nice room). Looks like you already have a controller. Are you keeping that one when you get the SSL? Also, what converters are you using, or planning on using?
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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NoEgo's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
All valid points, even though "the best overall sonics" is based your personal opinion. Other ears might like something different.

Every analog solution has it's own sound. I like a lot of them, but personally want to have the least coloration when summing/mixing. I introduce color on the way into the DAW and don't want to be stuck with a certain "sound" when mixing. In the "old" days I normally used a Neve or API type console for tracking but always an SSL for mixing.

The AWS controls plenty of DAW functions and for in depth editing, there is still the mouse, if you don't want to invest in a dedicated controller (which can be had used for around $7K in the case of the MC Pro). On the other hand there are a loty more functions (analog inserts etc.) on the console than in a controller. I think it's best of both worlds, even though the price tag is quite up there. I also found that during the workshops it's a lot easier to explain signal flow with the analog console than with the dedicated controller, people seem more familiar with the analog terms.

Your argument for a dedicated controller (with faders etc.) plus any analog summing set up makes total sense, definitely a solution to consider.


I agree on this approach. Outboard directly on input and clean on the mix. This whole turn to line mixers without mic pres like the Matrix from SSL... it makes total sense to me. I have the Neve styles, the DW Fearn, the UA Audio, the Forssell, Grace or Buzz Audio clean, and all the comps, LA2A, Tubetech, Manley, Smart, Aurora etc...as well...from clean to colour and I love my board but it would be nice to hear things not affected by anything but the outboard..as an alternative.. Especially acoustic music. I think SSL is on the right track there. I have always wished I could use my analogue gear without having to have a dedicated loop from a line out of the DAW and somehow back to the DAW or a summing mixer. The insert without mic pre is the answer in my situation for sure. I am going to try a hybrid of my board ( Toft AtB32) and the small SSL at first. To see what I get. If you are tracking with Neve you get Neve right? Do we need Neve twice, or for that matter 3 times if we are using inserts..4 if we use the sends....just sayin....
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Head
 
arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
Atle

just looked at your studio (nice room). Looks like you already have a controller. Are you keeping that one when you get the SSL? Also, what converters are you using, or planning on using?
I am currently working on the WK-Audio ID Control. Which is a very nice controller, but not mine. I really like the workflow on the ID and like the advantages of mixing ITB. But I feel that an SSL console would be a great business advantage, there are not many of them in Norway, not even the AWS.
So my alternative to going for the AWS is to buy my own ID controller, analog summing and some additional analog outboard. And of course great preamps. I really like some colouring from my preamps and Nuendo has great possibillities for doing analog inserts, so this is a good alternative. Also, it would of course cost me less.
I'm using a Lynx Aurora 16 with an RME ADI-8 QS at the moment. If I go for the SSL I'm thinking of swapping it with one or two SSL converters. If I do not buy the SSL I guess I will add another Aurora.

So to sum it up, the alternatives are the SSL AWS 900 and mostly OTB vs WK-Audio ID control with analog summing. Man, making this choice makes me loose my sleep. Having two kids doesn't help either...

Thanks a lot for all the inputs! Keep them coming thumbsup
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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DirkB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
How do you deal with mixing to subgroups on an AWS?

The console seems to have virtually anything I would need, but I need to be able to submix to 4-8 subgroups.

Regards,
Dirk
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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TornadoTed's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB ➑️
How do you deal with mixing to subgroups on an AWS?

The console seems to have virtually anything I would need, but I need to be able to submix to 4-8 subgroups.

Regards,
Dirk
I've often wandered this. I guess ge something like the 8 channel summing module for the X-Rack and go back into that from the 8 Group outs via a patchbay to give an insert.

I would be grateful if someone could give a detailed response.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
normally you'd use the 8 tracking busses for that. And/or the second main bus.
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Solid State Logic
 
Jim@SSL's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed ➑️
I've often wandered this. I guess ge something like the 8 channel summing module for the X-Rack and go back into that from the 8 Group outs via a patchbay to give an insert.

I would be grateful if someone could give a detailed response.
Or add an X-Desk on the 8 groups put of the AWS.... just a thought if you need faders/inserts
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB ➑️
How do you deal with mixing to subgroups on an AWS?

The console seems to have virtually anything I would need, but I need to be able to submix to 4-8 subgroups.

Regards,
Dirk
I would use the 8 Buss outs and send those back into the DAW, if you need to insert plugs or outboard. I use the direct outs to create 12 stereo stems (based on MTVs requirement for RockBand), which get recorded back into Nuendo. The stems with the faders at zero will sum up to the mix before the analog mastering chain (which sits on the stereo bus).
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
Or add an X-Desk on the 8 groups put of the AWS.... just a thought if you need faders/inserts
Jim

Could you tell me a bit about the stereo bus insert? Does it have a +4 in and out or is it at a lower level. It seems like when I take the same analog chain, which is plugged into the MIX out, and insert it on the MIX insert, the levels are different, the output seems lower and the input seems more sensitive. Is it a -10 insert?

Any ideas?

Thanx for your help
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
I use the direct outs to create 12 stereo stems (based on MTVs requirement for RockBand), which get recorded back into Nuendo. The stems with the faders at zero will sum up to the mix before the analog mastering chain (which sits on the stereo bus).
Does this mean that the console is not used for anything else than summing during mixing?
Old 23rd November 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB ➑️
How do you deal with mixing to subgroups on an AWS?
Kind of guessing here, since I haven't tried for myself and am not using this console on a regular basis yet. But wouldn't it be a possible solution to connect the outputs of the busses to the external inputs, and use the external inputs as a send return? And then use the zigma button in the mastering section?
Old 24th November 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Does this mean that the console is not used for anything else than summing during mixing?
Mostly summing, but sometimes analog inserts into the channels, or if necessary Awesomation when mixing, it all depends on the situation. The great thing is: it's all there if you need it.
Old 24th November 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Jim
CORRECTION: I had it all ass backwards, sorry.
Could you tell me a bit about the stereo bus insert? Does it have a +4 in and out or is it at a higher level. It seems like when I take the same analog chain, which is plugged into the MIX out, and insert it on the MIX insert, the levels are different, the output seems 10 dB higher. Is that because it doesn't see the master fader? Is there a way to adjust the level of the insert send ?

Thanx for your help
Old 24th November 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
Mostly summing, but sometimes analog inserts into the channels, or if necessary Awesomation when mixing, it all depends on the situation. The great thing is: it's all there if you need it.
So you do not use the EQs at all?
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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mwagener's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
So you do not use the EQs at all?
Yes I do, forgot to list them. Everything in the console gets used (even the Oscillator), just not all the time or on every mix.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
Jim
CORRECTION: I had it all ass backwards, sorry.
Could you tell me a bit about the stereo bus insert? Does it have a +4 in and out or is it at a higher level. It seems like when I take the same analog chain, which is plugged into the MIX out, and insert it on the MIX insert, the levels are different, the output seems 10 dB higher. Is that because it doesn't see the master fader? Is there a way to adjust the level of the insert send ?

Thanx for your help
Michael, sorry if it's too obvious, but you know of course that the inserts are pre-compressor & pre-masterfader?
There seems to be no level difference in my 900.
If you use the stereo returns just as FX-returns, you can easily adjust the level of the insert send. Just make a link-group with all faders. Adjust to taste..
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Solid State Logic
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwagener ➑️
Jim
CORRECTION: I had it all ass backwards, sorry.
Could you tell me a bit about the stereo bus insert? Does it have a +4 in and out or is it at a higher level. It seems like when I take the same analog chain, which is plugged into the MIX out, and insert it on the MIX insert, the levels are different, the output seems 10 dB higher. Is that because it doesn't see the master fader? Is there a way to adjust the level of the insert send ?

Thanx for your help
I'm out in Japan this week. I'll have an ask around in the office for you when I am back on Monday.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator ➑️
Michael, sorry if it's too obvious, but you know of course that the inserts are pre-compressor & pre-masterfader?
There seems to be no level difference in my 900.
There is no difference if the Master fader is a +10 on my console. Are you running your Master fader at +10, I have it normally at zero, so I have some extra level if I need it.
Maybe the insert send could be adjusted to -10, so it matches the Master fader level at zero? Thanx for checking Jim and have some Sushi for me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator ➑️
If you use the stereo returns just as FX-returns, you can easily adjust the level of the insert send. Just make a link-group with all faders. Adjust to taste..
Could you please elaborate on this some more, I don't seem to able to follow your train of thought on this
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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41 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I have used the WK-Audio ID Control and I have to admit it provides the best work flow with Nuendo. Having a great work flow is something very important if this is what your doing 8-10 hours a day. The only concern I have with this route is Steinberg seems to stop supporting a lot of their hardware gear after a while like their Midi boxes, the Houston, etc. I am sure that not many of these controllers are selling and perhaps in a couple of years, Steinberg and Yamaha may take another direction. At least with the SSL AWS 900, you know that it will be around for a while.

I was given a detailed demonstration of the AWS 900, and you know there is something about working with a nice console, that you don't get with working with software and a controller. To me it's more of what the work flow was like in the analog days, and it just feels more complete with it's capabilities. Personally I found the mouse the best controller to use with plug in controls. It's the fastest and easiest way to work. Pushing several buttons on a controller to get it to show up on your screen, and reaching over and moving knobs to change things takes more effort. For me as long as you have faders, solo, mute, and transport control on your controller I am content. I personally would go for the AWS 900 and then make sure you have some Neve and API pre's to route to when needed.
Having a mid size mixer and controller can take up a lot of space, and I would want the controller and mixer in front of me, not on the side. However I have to say the the Euphonix MC Pro is a lot better in many ways over the cheaper controllers out there.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Glenn, that pretty much sums it up for me. The ID gives a very good workflow. But I am only utilizing maybe half of it. After a couple of days demoing the AWS I am pretty sure it can give me much of the same workflow, and also improve it in some areas.
Now I simply just have to find out if I can afford it...
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #29
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Glenn Bucci's Avatar
 
41 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by arovik ➑️
Glenn, that pretty much sums it up for me. The ID gives a very good workflow. But I am only utilizing maybe half of it. After a couple of days demoing the AWS I am pretty sure it can give me much of the same workflow, and also improve it in some areas.
Now I simply just have to find out if I can afford it...
Another option is the SSL Matrix, as it is a similar price as the ID Controller with an extra fader unit but is a lot cheaper than the AWS. I have used that as well and I really fell in love with it. It will also add a WOW factor to your studio. This puppy is BIG. You can route your gear through it. I assume you read the indepth review of it. SSL Matrix It would also give a very nice work flow and you would use more of it's funcitons compared to the other Controller that has so much in depth functions. It could work for you if you had enough pre's in your studio. The other option is to get the Matrix and some SSL XLogic X pre's on the side.
Old 25th November 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Head
 
arovik's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Not a bad suggestion, but not an option for me. Need the preamps and want the EQ. And of course, the stereo compressor is nice to have also. And it does not have more than half of the wow factor than the AWS 900
To be honest, I have never quite understood the point with the matrix. At least not coupled with Nuendo which have lot of options for connecting outboard.
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