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Already done - out of the gate - I never leave anything to chance with pop stuff......

However, there is all the super-subtle stuff - that Auto-ruin doesn't always nail...

A lot of this is subtle pull-offs, drops in energy or timbre shift, dynamics and timing -
as well as interplay between instruments, etc. - which can often change the perception of pitch.

Thanks, though!

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hi Fletcher,
when you say the "reamp thing gets redone in mixing"...

do you mean that you throw the IBP on a channel insert and dial sweep the already printed signal, or that you actually do a reamp/ re-record with IBP in front of the amp?

It's not exactly helpful to the thread, but I couldn't help sharing.

Here's a photo after a long day tracking with Graham Maby, after a celebratory dinner in which much wine was consumed.

The session was for a friend's album project. Left to right: Jared (manager), Billy (artist), me (producer), Graham (bass).

The guy was one of the most wonderful musicians with whom I've worked. A complete gentleman from start to finish. And man, can he play. He alternated between two basses—a five-string Spector and a '66 (early-CBS) J-Bass. The Spector got the most use, actually. We eschewed amping him (despite a good B15 available), and simply went into a JDI, then an Avedis MA5 and lastly through an Avedis E27 (no eq, just the sound of the unit—it makes everything sound bigger). AD16X to PT|HD.

The tone was great. Very warm, round, balanced sound. Great low-end, without mud, and a bit mid-range growl. It just "sat" in the mix perfectly. He used his fingers throughout the session—no pick, though I know he enjoys using them when appropriate to the sonics and arrangement. At times, I'd look at the waveforms in the session and swear they looked compressed, they were so even.

For what it's worth.

A really fun session.

i hear you, i love those moments of new sounds off of easy twists.

pop, r&b and rock. like everyone else, right?

heard your clip, here's my thoughts:

hard for me to give useful opinion without your drums and kick being near where you need them, because when im putting a sound together i have to know where to start with the kick and stop with the bass etc., too many moving targets my brain starts to spin.

basically i have a hard time getting towards a more rock / rockish oriented sound of today (compared to when pop was more dance oriented) starting with a hand crafted R&B style beat. i know plenty people who can do this, but i'll spend all my time floating around in 3d sound space. so if you're one of those people that can do that you're way ahead of me and my opinion is possibly not useful to you.

for me, overall on the clip there's too much space to fill-in on the low end for the bass, both the kick and bass are also lacking mids and punch to me. (i wish i could just rattle off freqs but im not that good). too much sub coming on the low bass notes, but that is an easy hpf. it is possible the pickup or something else in the chain is too scooped for my taste. i would not sample / don't think there's a need to add anything synthetic, because some of the the adding needs to be with the kick imho.

the bass you're using should get you there with regards to the low end, no question on this for me. can it get you there with the mids is another question. look to tone out the sizzle and throaty mids and try to dial in / play in some more pleasing mids

maybe more neck pickup, roll back the tone knob and play it higher over the fretboard? Hard to say without sitting down with it and twiddling. I stop playing higher up with my right hand towards (or over) the neck when im just making more and less defined lows and not improving the character of my mids. Then if its not there i know its time to try another bass or pickup.

just a thought, what monitors are you using? are they scooped? a lot of the other instruments sound high passed as well, maybe you have a mid or low-mid hole in your monitors or your room at home?

Don't I know it...

Say, I listened to your sample.

Is this the Stingray? Sounds kind of like one...

The bass sounds a little 'woofy' for lack of a better word. Seems to me like it sounds too heavy in the low lows and not focused enough in the mids- sounds like there may be some low mid problems as well.

How low do your monitors go- I checked it with the sub on (I don't mix with the sub, just use it to reference- my monitors start rolling off at 39hz anyway) and there is a lot down there in the bass that is not so audible with the sub out- maybe too much imho. In fact I wonder if monitoring is causing some of your difficulties..? I would try cutting the sub freqs with a low shelf and maybe it would sit better.

You might look at some volume automation from verse to chorus and on single notes and some compression- or just change up your playing style when the chorus hits.

Also the kick didn't seem very defined, just kind of thuddy- getting some more definition in the kick would help the bass sit better. I'd say more definition and pop in the mids from both kick and bass would be helpful. Is the master bus clipping a little in places or are those artifacts from the MP3?

Been a busy day, so this is just what I could hear just listening to it for a couple minutes... hope I'm not too far off with my comments, could be.

I didn't listen to your track yet Sqye but here is my take on the discussion.

First, bass is probably the thing that I have the hardest time with. On another bass thread Thrill said he is looking for a bass track that sounds like a 10 story tall glass building or something. I get that, that is the sound I am after as well.

I listened to Yes's Close To The Edge a few months back for the first time on my studio rig, I was shocked at just how good the bass sounded, that is the depth of tone I am looking for and never achieve.

That said here is my take.

Flat wounds are interesting but they are a specific sound that either works for the track or doesn't. On my bass (a early 70's Jazz) flats are great for a 60's or 70's mellow vibe which I LOVE but when I am recording more aggressive stuff they just don't work at all. I think when people here said "use flats" or "use rounds" they are completely missing the point, neither will work for all situations.... at least in my experience.

To the original point about warm, fat, even sounds from bass...

For me the best bass tracks I have mixed come down to a few things....

1) If I am playing the track I don't worry about playing behind or in front, I don't worry about where my hands are sitting on the bass, I don't worry about getting every note exactly the same volume yadda yadda. I listened to Gearslut posts on this stuff and I started to focus on it so much I lost all vibe and feel. Now I just play... and things sound better. I have been playing bass for 30 some odd years, I think I can play well enough without over thinking about it.

2) I do edit the bass a bit to give it some vibe, usually I push it a little behind the kick.. if people have a problem with that.. dfegad

lol

3) The big key is to automate the hell out of the volume on the bass track. You want even tones, it takes time to even that sh*t out, even with the best players I ever worked with I had lots of bass rides to do.

4) Don't discount the help a little (or a lot) of distortion on bass will do. I can't tell you the last time I used a clean bass track on it's own. Sometimes it just a touch, sometimes the distortion is the lead of the bass tone. I have used guitar amps, pedals, over-driven bass amps, over-driven 1176's, plug-ins, POD, whatever. Again, it all depends on the track, a little dab will do ya or over the top distortion but it can really help to get the bass track to step out of the mix (the trick like everyting else is to know when enough is enough).

5) Don't forget the doubling trick. Thrill and others talked about a moog part below the track, that can be cool. At times it helps to go the other way, play the bass line on a clean guitar track... or a distorted guitar.... then duck it under the bass, it can help greatly with clarity.

6) Tuning tuning tuning. Cloudy bass can come from masking when the bass is beating against the guitars because of tuning. Use the same tuner on all the instruments in the track. I HIGHLY recommend getting a Buzz Feiten Tuning System for all your instruments including bass. It helps the bass to have an even tune over the whole song and that can really help the bass to stay clear in the mix. Don't overlook this point on tuning, really important IMO.

7) Sometimes the most meaty sounding bass has very little "low end" and a lot more low mids than you might imagine. I think someone else posted this thread earlier but it is worth a read, what is talked about here matches my experience as well.

Hope some of that helps. As I said, I struggle with bass as well so take all of this with a grain of salt but when I get the above stuff right I usually end up with tracks that I am pretty happy with for the most part.

thumbsup

Hi, bass playing Gearslut here. I've been playing professionally (when paid that is!) for 25 years and change.

Very interesting thread you've got going here and I've just read through the entirety. I fall into the "it's in the bass player's fingers" camp for the most part but the gear is also incredibly important to the sound and can be very personal for us bassists.

I agree with a lot of what Robot Gigante says - I personally love flat wound strings on a P or P type bass. It was good enough for Jamerson who is my all time hero. Flats can really sound incredible, but as mentioned in this thread, they can sound pretty rough in inexperienced hands.

I think in general the OP is looking for a more round wound type of sound. The OP I think ought to look into who is playing bass on his favorite records and dig a bit deeper into what the bassist is known to play. There are loads of articles on great bassists and their gear in bass player magazine. I'm sure some of those pieces are online and aren't too hard to find.

RE: my personal favorites are recommendations for basses, pickups, preamps, etc. Music Man 5 strings can be really great, but I think they are better suited for live gigs than tracking. They have some incredible tone and versatility on their own, but I think they stand out a bit too much to sit well during tracking. That's one of their strengths is that they cut through the mix, and that's why many players gravitate to them for live gigs.

I don't think you can ever go wrong with a P-bass because it just sits great in the tracks for the most part, regardless of what kind of music you're playing. Think of all the great players and recordings that have been made with P-basses.

I personally love G&L basses - a very underrated but amazing brand. It was Leo Fender's last company after selling Music Man to Ernie Ball in '79. G&L's have different styles - a one and two pickup version with those huge humbuckers like the Music Man, a P-Bass (Legacy Bass), a Jazz bass, and a Five string with either one humbucker pickup (passive) or two (active). To me they are capable of getting the best of both worlds tonally between Leo's mid-range dominant Music Man design and the more woody P-Bass warm sound. I've got 6 different models of G&L's and they all do different things and have different tones. My 5 string is killer and I think it sits better than most Music Man 5's that I've heard. Love that MM, but I just don't think it will fit most of your recordings. That tone can really bogart a mix.

I really don't dig the Bartolini pickup sound. Again, it might sound musical on it's own, but I don't think it will sit that well. It's too clear for me. Not enough beef IMO. I prefer a P-bass style pickup all the way, whether it's a vintage P, or a Seymour Duncan vintage-style P, or a G&L pickup.

You may want to check into a G&L. The build quality is better than a Music Man IMO. The real ones, not the ones under the cheaper "G&L Tribute" name, are hand made in Fulllerton just like the pre-CBS Fenders. I mean, these ARE Fenders after all.

The caveat with G&L's though is that you really do need to be a bass player I think to play them. They can be on the heavier side. The legacy series (LB 100) is an incredible P-bass. Better than any you'll find unless you dig back into the 70's or earlier and it will cost you a third of the price.

For Mic-pres, anything Neve is stunning for bass IMO. Great River is also a winner. I also love API's. In fact, for what you're looking for I think the API will get you closer than a Neve-based tone. API's by their very nature are warm but simultaneously punchy and have some clarity as well. Think John McVie on Rumors. Killer bass sound and that's into an API board. The Averill 312 or the API's are a great way to go and very simple. You will probably need some kind of tube based compressor at the end though so you don't hit your DAW too hard.

That is another issue that was brought up by a poster here and was dismissed a little too easily IMO. Tape does WONDERS for bass. Recording bass directly to DIGI is fairly brutal. Tape just adds that natural compression that is beautiful for bass frequencies. It just pulls it in where the bass needs to go. It's very hard to get a crap bass sound when recording directly to tape. On the other side, it's a challenge to get a good bass sound into the digi realm. There's something unforgiving about the digi. To me the Digi "accurate" sound tends to highlight the worst aspects of electric bass - the clickiness, the unevenness and the harsher qualities of bass rather than the smoothness, fatness and softness that are easier to capture with tape.

And for the record, I completely disagree about Flea. The guy is a monster bass player, a real original, and one HELL of a nice guy. I love Flea and listening to his lines. He's on some big hits in his own right - Alanis Morrisette's debut album, Young MC's Bust a Move, in addition to his phenomenal playing with the Red Hots. The ironic thing is he plays Music Man basses.

Oh yeah - G&L!

Awesome stuff! Gotta get me an ASAT, and their basses are

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You guys are the best! This thread is an awesome course in bass tracking and mixing, if I ever saw one here at GS!

Just for the record, I'll be pretty busy the next few weeks/months - so I may not get to more tracking / mixing bass in the studio. Likewise, I may not be as responsive here.

...However, I'll check in when I can.

One treat I'm looking forward to Friday in the city (NYC) - is checking out two of my favorite bands - Ours and Blue October - on the same bill!

Jeff Good (BO) is literally my FAVORITE FOH / sound production guy on earth. He KICKS ASS. IMO, no one sounds as good as Blue October live.

And Ours would sound awesome in a concrete bunker 6 miles underground (guarded by leopards) - it's all about Jimmy Gnecco's voice and great writing!

...Anyway - WOO-HOO!!!!

I'll catch up with you lads when I have a moment!

Cheers, y'all!

Best Bass Thread in History!...

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My chain is a Fender Jazz into a clean Radial DI. I can get huge sounds out of that.

If I had a ton of gear, I would do what Fletcher described..what a tone party that would be.

If I mix it, instead of parallel distorting I distort the main track and add some lows back with RenBass.

If you listen to soloed motown bass tracks, a lot of those were just 1 bass track driven hard and distorted. They still sound great to this day.

Cool man, maybe next thread you can throw a beat out and we'll all come back with a bass line and compare all the diff sounds.

At T5?. Your friend is going to have his hands full getting a good sound at that joint. Hey, anybody out there seen that show yet? I wish the were playing at the Bowery, i would love to see that at better venue.

The last bass Chain I used which came out fantastic was an expensive 5 String Pedulla Bass that had passive Bartolini pickups that ran into Sansamp Tech21 Stompbox, then into a GR DI input, then that went into an LA-2A. The sound was amazing! I also find that a multi-band compressor works best to tame those "loud" notes.

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Hey, thanks you for sharing. It's really great to get feedback here regarding actual session setups!

This is awesome. And congrats on the session - can't wait to hear it!



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Excellent post - thank you very much, man!

And yes, I completely agree - I definitely need more mids in the bass or kick tones!!

...No question!

I'm keeping my response short for now - since I'm running around the next few days - but thank you so much for your observations - this is very helpful, indeed!

I've been playing with more neck pickup, as well as layering, octaving and processing with various instruments, including bass, but have not screwed around with punch freqeuencies in the kick, yet!

Thanks, man!



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I totally hear you, RG - the sveral commenst about too much low end - woofiness - are confirming what I've thought.

I've been over-compensating on the low B and E strings, because I've never been able to properly track those strings on my other basses. So I'm enjoying haveing a plausible low end. Now it's time to start dialing in some more definition in the lo mids - including the kick, as several others have pointed out.

There are a lot of good suggestions in your post - also regarding monitoring. I'm currently screwing around with a number of different custom monitors - so my room is changing regularly.

So it helps to hear all your feedback.

This is awesome, guys. Thank you all so much for your help!



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Gotta check them out - haven't yet..

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Thank you SO MUCH, Michael!

This is an incredibly helpful post.

So many useful and practical tips here - I can't thank you enough for sharing this!

...And I'm psyched to try this tuning system.

You all have me convinced that the low mids - need more shaping and definition. Again I'm been over-compensating in the deeper lows -
because I'm so happy to have a bass that tracks the lowest strings so well. But I definitely need to focus more on the mids.

Your poins about tuning, even dynamics, layering and distortion are all great. I know a lot of folks swear by distortion on bass -
and truthfully, I haven't done this enough, at all.

As I've pointed out earlier, I have always tended to automate and tune the shit out of my live bass tracks - sometimes even more that vocals -
to try to get everything extremely even (or specifically shaped), dynamically.

I apologize for throwing this MP3 up before I am really done with the track / mix, etc.

Typically, my layers and layers of vocal tracks tend to be pretty wide - frequency and dynamic-wise - I usually leave a lot of room in the mids
and low mids for this.

You guys are making a lot of kickass points here - and I can't tell you how psyched I am!

Cheers.



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Awesome chain - thanks for sharing!



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Thanks very much for your details here, man! Very cool!



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Wonderful post. Thank you tons for the elaboration - you make a lot of great points.

Obviously, researching the gear of my favorite bass players is key!

I'm going to take a closer look at this post when I get back in the studio next week.

I think I actually agree with you regarding round wounds - but I still don't have enough data. But it does make sense to me.

Your point about API puchiness also makes a lot of sense, from my own past experience.

And yes, the G&L basses might not be great for me - if they require too much real bass technique heh

Cheers, and thanks again!



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No problem man....



You know, the interesting thing about Gearslutz is that it makes me think a little about things that I sort of do instinctively.

So I got to think about this thread a little after I posted above and I have another comment that might be helpful.... or not.

I once heard someone say that a good mix leaves someone in the band unhappy. Meaning not everything can be upfront in a mix. That includes bass and kick.

Some people like JJP seem to solve this issue by usually defaulting to the kick as focus of the low end. He has mixed some of my favorite albums and usually his bass tracks are way in the back seat.... seems to do pretty well for himself with that.

heh

Other folks take a different approach, decide which drives the tune more the kick or the bass... I am in this second camp.

When I start a production I try to build a mental picture of the finished mix in my head including the bass / kick relationship. I try to pick the 'winner'.... the one that does the best job of conveying the intent of the songwriting.

Now that I am not doing production work for a living I am mostly working on my own stuff. As a songwriter, drummer and bass player (among other things) for my own tunes picking between the bass and the kick to drive the song is a big challenge. It's not the part that I like the most, it's the part that best propels the song forward.

Making this choice early in the production is really and I mean really helpful, for me at least. When I do this I tend to find that I am making many decisions early in the process that supports my finished mix. The positive thing is when it all works out it pays off in spades, the negative is when I made the wrong choice from the get go it can sort of paint me in the corner. The big guns can do this constantly, production after production without many misses, that's why they are great and I am always frustrated with my average (at best) work.



One more point on this... if you are using someone else's production for a reference track keep in mind that the producer might have had all of the above ideas in his or her head and they might have a totally different focus in mind than you have. Reference tracks have messed me up before for just that reason.

I don't know, this seems to work for me so maybe it will help you out a little. Hope this helps, good luck.

Hmmm... I try to walk both sides of the fence, that is to say to do a balancing act on top of it. I like kick and bass both to be big and upfront.

To me it's a game of give and take sometimes, sure.

You have a few things to look at- pitch, timing, the envelope of the kick and bass, the frequencies that the kick and bass resonate the most at (related to pitch).

To my ears if the pitch and the timing of both the kick and bass are right for the music, and the way the attack and release of both the kick and bass are just right in the pocket in relation to each other (this relates to bpm slightly as well, for faster songs you want the envelopes to be tighter, obviously)--- you don't have to compromise so much with either one.

That is to say, the goal is to make them reinforce each other, not bitchslap each other so one will have to dominate in the mix.

One other thing is to put the right kind of kick and bass together that will play nice with each other. If your kick is all click and low tone then if your bass doesn't have a lot of midrange definition they will not play so nice. Likewise if the kick is all low mid thud and so is the bass, then you have a problem as well. One can easily see that some problems that would get you to start to tear your hair out in frustration to try to fix with EQ or whatever are easy to deal with if you plan the sound out right, or follow certain formulas.

Now not all of it is going to come from the tracking, of course, at some point at least for me I have to do some some artificial enhancing to get things larger than life. Compression, EQ, distortion, modulation, whatever.

This perspective comes from mixing dance, pop, and hip hop tunes for years and I admit an unhealthy obsession with low end, so the best thing of course if you are trying to get a certain sound is to figure out what they are doing in the pop songs you are trying to sound like and create some formulas or guidelines to get yourself there.

Sqye-

Get an analog meter... the needle deal..... really take the time to automate the bass for level... watch the needle..... don't use digital meters.....maybe use a spare 1176..... as a meter.....
Tim

3) The big key is to automate the hell out of the volume on the bass track. You want even tones, it takes time to even that sh*t out, even with the best players I ever worked with I had lots of bass rides to do.

got to love rotosound swingbass 66 strings!, yeah...they don't last as long as others, but they rock! i'm digging on the jag bass these days!

I've been playing and recording bass since 1971. I've had great players in the studio and we've toiled endlessly to get the sound that fit the song. There is no one size fits all. My main bass axe is a P-Bass with Rotosounds.

I'm always open to fresh ideas and this has been one of the best GS threads ever because egos seem to have been checked at the door and everyone has just been contributing great techniques and ideas.

For rock bass tracks I go direct into an API 3124 preamp and print that on a track by itself.

I also split the bass to a Boogie Dual Recto head which is connected to an old Celestion 12 (same rig I play guitar thru). I carefully adjust the volume so the bass does not blow the old guitar speaker. Depending on the song I go ahead and distort the heck out of the Dual Recto. I print this to its own track.

I also split the bass to a Roland Micro Cube guitar amp and mic that from a couple of feet away with a U87ai, and print that on its own track. This gives me three bass sounds to choose from at mix.

The API track is usually the first tone I work with and forms the basis of the track, deep and punchy. The Micro Cube track adds a good midrange sound that lets the bass be heard on smaller speakers, sort of like an exciter track. The Dual Recto sound gets mixed back in the mix and adds muscle. It amazes me how a little of that Dual Recto in the back can make the track sound huge.

Thanks to everyone for their tips, I love experimenting.

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OK, blokes - Here's Bass Test Sample #2

[...I know it's sloppy, etc., and the track is all over the place. I'm still screwin' around.]


I'm interested in your opinions on the actual sound of the bass in the mix.

My basic question here is - can I use this bass / signal path to get decent bass tracks,
or do I need another instrument, and different pre's, compressors, EQ, etc.??


...If I work on the playing / part / use a different player, etc. - can I get this instrument to work, and to sit right?

or does this instrument suck? (I already know I suck - I'm not a bassist heh)


Thanks a million, slutz!

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Fender basses are classic, but for modern type of sound try Warwick Thumb (with Bartolini) in passive mode. It requires a bit of experiment, but changed my view on bass guitar (from all instruments I like bass the most).
It should be played/tweaked in context of mix/song, not alone, as the best soloed bass guitar sound will usually sound quite bland in final mix. (this mistake somehow destroyed image of Warwich within engineers)

thinking hmmm...we did go there about that pop sound

but now i'm bit confused. what happened to the original bubble gum pop thread assumption? in this track the bass sounds pretty good and it would get you to something old skool, if that's where you want to go. i'd say start a new thread for each genre, your mileage will go much further. unless you're trying to do make an old skool funk pop record for paris hilton et al, in that case any ol "dirty" bass will do. heh

Not terribly helpful, but I also have a G&L bass which I love. Very versatile.
Lots of recent research made me REALLY want to try some Laklands and Sadowskis, apparently much better Fenders than Fenders.

For me, between a P and a J (both with rounds and 4 strings!!!), I need nothing else.
Don't like flats, don't like MM, Warwick or any others I've tried.

As for DI's, the REDDI has changed my bass sounds. It's tone and depth are untouched by any other DI's I've tried. Contrary to others have said, the pre after it is of course important but not essential. The REDDI has so much gain on tap that you could run it straight into the converters easily (not that I would). I usually run it into an Aurora GTQ2 or API and I'm set.

As for amps, my favorite by far is Ashdown.

If everything sounds great so far, mixdown is a piece of cake, otherwise it can be the hardest thing to get right.
Yes saturation, distortion and overcompression essential.
For a huge bass sound in the mix, I roll off the lows and beef up the low mids.

I also agree MOST of the sound is in the hands of the player. But I don't ever record bad musicians. Cause if I do, I will replace their parts when they leave :o)