I think there is a difference of opinion forming into what constitutes hard drums - when I think of hard drums I think of very loud dynamic sounding drums like as people have mentioned Noisia, Current Value, Dillinja, Technical Itch, Billain, Justice, Madeon, Deadmau5 etc
Not push the drums till they sound like a square wave: Nine Inch Nails, AFX, MGMT or any hardstyle tune etc. Not saying they are inferior or anything as it suits the industrial style, but they dont hit hard they just sound loud & distorted.

That's all envelope shaping. Controlling dynamics. I rarely get on my
soapbox re: my library here, but I spent an obscene amount of time
on this with my last collection. The envelopes are intentionally as long
and flat as possible (aka "hard" as you reference it)

In fact, they intentionally go overboard so you can adjust the AHD shape
within Maschine or Guru, leaving a HOLD stage and shortening the decay
or release.

This removes the issue of using a compressor and limiter because they
already are as dynamically controlled as possible. So, no compression
or limiting/clipping artifacts. Just shape the envelopes.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?54pia2ls5sehvab

Here's an example of the above. It's ONE sample. No compressor
or limiter is being used. Just envelope shaping of the AHD within
Maschine.

This works specifically due to how I created the samples to begin
with, timing textural changes and controlling dynamics.

Of course, you can automate the AHD controls to get 10X the variation
PER sample.

Not sure what you are getting on your soapbox about lol? I am also well versed in envelope shaping so no need to explain anything to me. In the case of Madeon, french house, House, electro etc yes they are using envelopes to make the tails go on for longer but Noisia etc are not (actually pretty much the opposite)

You also mention no clipping, are we talikng digital clipping here as they are using a ton of distortion/saturation on their drums which would be classed as clipping. To get hard drums you can shorten the drum then automate a saturator into an envelope so it just saturates the initial transient hence you get a huge sounding transient which makes the drums poke through the mix (thats what Noisia are doing). In dnb etc the drums have a lot shorter a decay so its easier to achieve a tight sound with saturation rather than compression which will in the end bring up the tail on the drum which is not really what you want. The same will happen if you just slap a distortion across some drums, you will end up bring up the tails if you push it hard which will just result in flat lifeless drums.

Well, we are talking about the same thing. The envelope shape I'm
referring to is HOLD stage. You reference short decays, which is also
envelope shaping. The distortion/saturation/clipping you are referencing
is one way to increase the HOLD stage of a drum that has a high transient.

What I'm saying is that with the drums I created specifically for my
sample collection, this is already done with analog outboard tubes,
transformers, limiters, parallel compression, wet/dry automation, etc
so there is no need to use clipping ON my drums specifically.

BTW, I said envelope shaping AND controlling dynamics.

This might help illustrate



Of course, the attack would be much snappier, but you can see the hold
stage.

You wouldn't place that envelope shape on just any sample. However,
that is the result you'd want. For instance, if you were using a modular
oscillator or noise source with a constant gain, the Modcan 64B or
Cwejman CTG-VC would produce that shape. Using the modular oscillators
with those envelopes was a partial inspiration and a-ha moment for me.

whats the definition of hardest? everybody is just going to spam links to their favorite artist but whats the point of asking? someones hardest drums is justin beiber....


personaly my definition of hardness in drum n bass is loudness,depth of bottom end and lenght

noisia isnt loudest or deepest I heard even trough I love them

I still can't understand why you keep trying to tell me about envelope shaping. I know what it is, I use it.
I mentioned clipping because distortion is just that. You are clipping your sound in some way to create harmonics, just not in the sense of absolute brickwall clipping & you seem to think I am talking about. You seem to be trying to school me on techniques I already use to great effect myself????

Dude, I hope you feel better. You seem to have some personal ego wrapped
up into this. Are you afraid of being schooled? Oh, I get it, you know
everything.

Fair enough, but I'm not writing for you. I'm writing for a community of
readers beyond me or you. As of now, there are 792 views... unless you
viewed this thread 700+ times, then we are in a group conversation.
My quoting you is in reference to a previous portion of the conversation,
not in rebuke.


Thanks for your contribution. Now I know you know, and knowing is half
the battle.

I don't know everything, but you keep on talking to me about techniques I have already stated I use as If i don't know them. I dont know why you keep trying to explain them to me in great detail with diagrams & such as I have already told you I know them & use them all the time.
The battle is trying to explain that I already know what you are talking about so I dont need it explaining to me.

I think hardest drums ever is the wrong question.

However, here are some hard drums..

British Murder Boys - Fist - YouTube

Like I said, it's not about you. There's other people in the world reading
this thread. It's an AND conversation, not an OR conversation.

Lol! well dont tell me, tell them.

Why the bad attitude man?

You should take time to learn the science of what you do.

I'd love to know how much care and involvement you invest into your music production.

I dont have a bad attitude. I also spend about 12 hours a day producing, sometimes spending 6 weeks to get a drum loop just right, so I invest lots of time into my production thank you.
I think we seem to have our wires crossed here, I already know & use the techniques the other poster was talking about, my problem was that he seemed to keep trying to talk to ME, not other people about them as though I didnt know them. I already stated I know said techniques.
Nothing arrogant about already knowing techniques.
Sorry if I was upsetting anybody on here, I was just confused as to why someone was already trying to teach me things I have meticulously studied for over 7 years.... again, in a non sarcastic way, sorry if I caused any offence to anyone.

Ok then. just came across that way.

Yeah, like I said, I think wires have been crossed here lol! I'm not on here to argue. Thanks.

But mecdnb let me explain something to you, dynamic range compression, also called DRC (often seen in DVD and car CD player settings) or simply compression reduces the volume of loud sounds or amplifies quiet sounds by narrowing or "compressing" an audio signal's dynamic range. Compression is commonly used in sound recording and reproduction and broadcasting. The dedicated electronic hardware unit or audio software used to apply compression is called a compressor. Compressors often have attack and release controls that vary the rate at which compression is applied and smooth the effect.

Downward compression reduces loud sounds over a certain threshold while quiet sounds remain unaffected. Upward compression increases the loudness of sounds below a threshold while leaving louder passages unchanged. Both downward and upward compression reduce the dynamic range of an audio signal.
An expander performs the opposite function, increasing the dynamic range of the audio signal. Expanders are generally used to make quiet sounds even quieter by reducing the level of an audio signal that falls below a set threshold level. A noise gate is a type of expander.

I don't know about hardest drums ever, but when this track came out, it was pretty much the hardest shit that I had heard:

Why are you explaining compression to me as though I started making music yesterday lol?

If I can control dynamics by hand in a sampler through ADSR (& hold,lol) & volume what do i need to compress for in EDM? I might use upward compression to glue a break together, but I wouldnt bother with an expander as I can do it more way more accurately with volume envelopes.

Besides, we have been discussing enveloping & saturation so what are you reciting dynamic compression to me from something you have found in a textbook somewhere?

Its seems you have just seen my disagreements with others & decided to wade in talking about compression, one of the fundamental basics of production as though its this magical thing I have never heard of.

What you going to tell me about next eq?

Now you're just getting trolled for fun. And you bit, hook, line and sinker.
Like finding a little sensitive spot and poking. But what are friends for?
And it is friendly.

Just a tip, maybe focus on seeing yourself as a human-being separate from
your profession/hobby. You are a person who happens to make music
rather than a Musician. Then you won't see anything relating to music,
including conversation, acceptance, rejection, etc as being personal.
Acceptance and rejection are two sides of the same coin and it's best to
be impartial emotionally to both as they relate to your identity. Once you
kill that, you can face anything without fear because nothing can harm you.

Hey bro, here's a good thread about the basics of compression - Enjoy

Tips & Techniques:Compressor / limiter basics - Gearslutz.com

Its not really bothering hence the lol, I just thought you kept aiming your discussion at me because you quoted me before giving a lengthy explanation, this usually means you are talking to me specifically.
Dont really care about other guy trolling me, i'm just laughing at it & asking him why he is talking about compression.
We really have gone off topic havent we. Anyway, the techniques you pointed out are great for achieving this sort of sound. I also forgot to mention that I also like to use dynamic eq to put life back into sampled breaks.

Very funny!

No worries

Yeah, I like to use dynamic eq and sidechain compression
minimally together on kick/snares... more invisible.

Yeah, you can get drums all big and pillowy & if you have samples already compressed to death you can make them bigger this way a lot better than adding more compression.

If I have a sampled old funk loop like amen or something when far far too much compression has been used bringing up the reverb & all the other crap I will eq out the washy area e.g. on the amen the muddy lows, then the use a dynamic eq to reboost that area. You can restore a load of punch without bringing up the horrid reverb in the tails.
Also if I am making house drums I use dynamic eq to put some punch back into the low mids without adding mud. Its great. You prob do this as well dont you lol?

Onra's made a few beats that have made me wonder how he programmed them. Especially his edit of Keep On Loving Me by The Whispers. The snares and clap whip like nothing I've ever heard.

Heres a serious question for you:

if I have, for example, a very "flat", in terms of amplitude, sample, will compression and enveloppe do the same thing? any reason to use one or the other for enveloppe shaping? I tend to use compression to add punch simply because of my workflow, but would an enveloppe do the job just as well?

I know I will get flamed but the Vengeance Essential dubstep demo has some seriously pounding drums, heavy as hell