Hey folks,

I got into problems with VCA automation on a project lately and wanted to check if it's myself being dumb or a bug.

Here's the thing:

Let's say I have track X in VCA group Y.
Track fader is at -3, VCA fader at -2.
When engaging the automation (so just activating it, not doing anything yet) on the track, it immediately drops down the amount of the VCA offset, in this example -2, making the actual track value -5.
This is annoying as hell, and got me into real trouble in a complex project featuring lots of automation on different levels and even different VCAs.

Is this the way it's supposed to be? Unfortunately I never sat at a console with real VCA groups. From my understanding, the track fader should stay at its actual value when engaging the automation, since that is the actual result of whatever combo of track level and VCA level.

Any input is appreciated, even and especially telling me I'm dumb.

I'm not sure what you feel is wrong; is it that the fader moves or that the value of the track (X) ends up being -5?

If by "engage" you mean engaging automation read then the result indeed should be (-3) + (-2), i.e. -5. So that's correct.

If you're annoyed that the fader moves then I honestly can't remember how Pro Tools does it. I think it's the same way. The fader reads whatever value is at the channel's output which is the sum of the channel's own automation plus the VCA channel that controls it.

Maybe you can tell us how you prefer to work and what you want to happen. When I work in post for TV I typically have all my dialog tracks in touch and trim mode at the same time. I set ballpark level using event gain and then I just do one or more passes using trim/touch for each event. Now, if I wanted to adjust dialog track levels broadly I would put my VCA channel that controls dialog in latch and write automation that way. So with that way of working my faders never move on the dialog tracks, just the VCA tracks.

In contrast I typically don't do that for either music tracks or a Music+Effects channel (depending on specifications). Here instead those channels are also in latch because the level changes are more gradual and smooth. So any movement of faders there is pretty acceptable. If I was to use a VCA to control for example the music tracks then those too again would be in latch mode just like the music tracks themselves, no "trim". Not a problem, even though they'd sum.

Finally, if you know that you want a -2 offset for your controlled channels then you can combine the VCA level with the controlled channels. Once you do that the VCA fader is reset and the combined value is what's left on the controlled channel.

PS: This is what I expect in Nuendo, and at one time Cubase had a different implementation. I'm not sure if that's still the case, it's possible. If I remember correctly the old implementation in Cubase that was different from Nuendo wasn't "right" in my opinion.

Thanx for your detailed reply. I checked again in the manual and while it explains a lot without exactly saying much, it seems it's working as expected then, but I can tell you why this annoys me:

When I arrive at a certain fader value with whatever combo of track and VCA level and want to automate that fader, it would only seem logical for me to do that from the exact level state the fader is right now. So, when the fader with whatever combo of its own level and the VCA level is at -3 right now I want to engage automation, do whatever move I want on the basis of that -3 level. So the exact same way as if no VCA track was involved. For me a VCA is foremost a lelvel control for a group of channels and it makes no sense having the VCA offset "double up" only when automating a channel, if you know what I mean.
I wonder if anyone with experience on a classic console with VCA groups can share what's happening there.

FWIW, I still can't believe Cubase's touch automation only works as intended after having manually set a point at the end as users requested fixing this since SX3 at least.

I just checked in Nuendo and when I have -3dB on my audio track and -3 on my VCA the result is that the fader represents the audio track's level summed with the VCA offset, in this case -6dB, when both are set to "read" automation.

It doesn't matter in Nuendo if I engage "write" or not on either. The fader moves to the sum of the two. Pro Tools works the same way as far as I can tell.

If Cubase works differently then the functionality is still different. The way you explain this is a bit hard to follow, so...

Is the keyword "only"? Do you mean that the fader is at only the track's level until you engage "write" and then it adjusts according to VCA levels?

Also I'm not quite sure in what sense this is a problem for you.

Can you explain?

FWIW, I stopped using VCAs in Cubase completely after experiencing the bug where upon reopening a project the balances were out of whack.

But I checked how VCAs are dealt with now in the latest version and the behaviour I explained above now at least is NO MORE standard and 100% reproducible which makes me feel I was right in finding it wrong and annoying. However, this behaviour still occurs, but now it's harder to reproduce.

Seeing the VCA problem reports at the Steinberg forum (with you also) growing since v8 I will definitely stay away from using them which is a shame. Honestly we had so much Cubase trouble lately in the studio we were about to ditch it alltogether.

I have been using Cubase's VCA system on multiple albums and I have never experienced anything odd. It behaves 100% as I would want and expect it too.

Are you on Mac or PC?

I've always been on PC - maybe that's significant?

I'm on PC, in the studio we are on Mac. Cubase problems usually are worse on Mac, though.

So I guess you never reopened a project close to finish and wondered why it sounds completely whack?

In truth - no.

I have a very precisely calibrated analog chain and TC Clarity metering and nothing is changing sound wise or more significantly metering wise - everything meters to precisely the same place down to 0.1dB on the Clarity meters!

But I'll try your posted method and see what happens!

I only use the Cubase DCA system in a traditional way as I would the VCA on a LF analog console.

This is not what I referred to in my initial post (although there's lots of reports on that, too), but what made me stop using them after having the same experience:

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/repro...12-0-52/830094

Firstly, I have never ever closed a project by exiting Cubase.

I know it should work but that always seemed like a recipe for disaster - like saving a word document by shutting down Windows not Word!!

So I always save and close the project and then close Cubase.

I've just tried and I cannot reproduce this bug - explains why never had it.

Maybe I will have it if I close a project by exiting Cubase - by as I never ever do that for me it's a moot point.

I never close a project by closing Cubase, too. But over the years I had nothing but trouble of many different kinds using VCAs in Cubase on Win and Mac as well, most of which is well documented over at the Steinberg forums.

You said you use the VCAs in a "classic" way, whatever that means, maybe that's the key? But to me, being able to automate either a VCA or a track attached to a VCA that's not at unity should be nothing out of the ordinary and no risky maneuvre.

I do those things - I don’t have this bug.

I noticed on the link to the Steiny forum other people don’t have this issue and couldn’t reproduce the bug.

What control surface do you use?

Maybe that’s causing problems.

When only some people have a bug, and some don’t there’s always an answer as to why to be found.

In this particular case, from my end it’s not Cubase.

Software can drive you crazy!!

Absolutely it can!

Well, I had those problems in all scenarios, with different computets, control surfaces and with none. Usually I could reproduce across platforms and no matter what control surface.

Seems you're lucky then. Appreciate your input, forgot to mention that!

So again pulling from memory the technical implementation of VCAs is still different from that of Nuendo (?).

In both the way to make VCAs work predictably and consistently however is to create volume automation points at the start of the timeline for both VCA tracks and controlled tracks. If you do that as a starting point in your projects / templates then these problems won't occur.

And if you want an arguably more 'correct' implementation of VCAs you should crossgrade to Nuendo.

I've used VCAs in Nuendo now for years on shows that go to broadcast and as long as I've had the default automation points on the timeline(s) I've had no problems at all.

Thanx for chiming in again. Yes, by now I know that's the workaround, but it is one that's not ideal and I think Steinberg really need to get this fixed. Not too much hope, though.

Nothing to do with VCAs, but maybe one of you guys knows:

Yesterday I had strange one in Cubase 12.

I essentially use two master faders with different processing before the main out. Have been doing this without any issue for long enough.

So master 1 is routed to master 2 which is routed to the main.

When reopening the project in question master 1 was routed to the main and master 2 was not selectable from the routing menu.

Duplicating master 2 was the solution as this was selectable again.

Reopening, same thing. Duplicating the duplicate was the solution.

I think I had a similar issue with a reverb FX track once. Any idea what this is, is it really a corrupted session?