No they're not. Steinberg produced Houston for a while, then WK-Audio produced at least three devices, then Yamaha two and now Yamaha one.

Most likely they did the math and figured "Why bother, our profit doesn't increase enough for it to be worth while."

If this is so important I think the users in this segment should get together and figure out something they could all live with and petition the company. Yamaha people aren't going to sit and read through threads on Gearslutz.

I thought Yamah/Steinberg are smart enough to know this, without having us to put a petition signed by us so they can take action, they surely are ignoring it, and they know about !

I'm not going to discuss this any further. Because, this discussion is only adding more to my frustration with Yamaha/Steinberg's Philosophy, and lack of wisdom.

Bye Bye...

Wait !

Don't go! that's how NOTHING ever gets done. Ok if we take Mattia's points on the business side thats fine, everyone needs to be able to express their view, maybe he is right and maybe not? one thing i think is we are all right to WANT ONE OF THESE

SO

why don't we do something tangible and MOCK something up like MATTIA said, put all our ideas in and maybe i can photo shop something

I will start with my baby

24 channels
1 master fader
full transport section and EQ control ala CC121 - and ALL buttong ON CC121
scribble strip
each channel have the normal
mute,solo, select, PAN know, scribble strip COLORED! ala Behringer x32
add on old stay meter bridge HA! JK

full bankable by 24, by 8, by 1

I want NICE faders ala nuage! those were THE smoothes i have ever felt and WAY WAY WAY WAY better than my artist series, the Mixed logic M24 had nice ones

Cubase items

click REMOTE button n12
ADD track N12
PREV /NEXT Buttons n12
Click LEVEL control knob n12
REC ready Button n12
ST Mix button, MONO mix button, 5.1 Mix button N12
Full COntrol Room control Ala N12
each track has a meter next to fader n12
ability to select PRe and Post, and CR and BUS metering N12

Dimmer button
Talkback with mic onboard
Control Room Level knob
many other parts - see n12 - already done and each button works perfect in cubase

Input meters

now

N12 as well so already done the DELUXE addition

COMP KNOB! controls software comps can be used for tracking offloaded DSP
DRIVE knob n12 drive that compression
4 band sweepable eq n12
Reverb knob - tacks to onboard Cubase reverb, Hall, plate, room, etc

per channel

Its funny the n12 had all of this, and it CONTROLLED cubase perfectly, and had a TON more it could do and there IS NOT that much sound difference to my symphonyh now

so the n12 was 1299

and we took out AD DA, and a ton of stuff and made it a controller

however we added 16 mono faders and say 4 more stereo since the n12 had 8 mono and 2 stereo plus the master

i would say 25x50 for motorised faders = 1250 so we are at roughly 2500 all in

add scribble strips X32 does this cant be that much but say 500

yep, we can do the insane 24 channel, crazy beautiful all ion deluxe controller for 3K! BOOM!

genius!

on a serious not all i did was snag what was in a Yamaha board already, that never crashed and controlled Cubase very well and was built like a tank

i extended it and added motors and scribble strips and took out preamps, 48v, monitor control for 3 sets of speaker and bunch of others stuff

so lets start the dialog and get some pics up!

Of course you aren't.

Ok. I appreciate that. So bare with me and just consider this: Your proposed controller has all of what you just wrote for $3,000.

Now, what is the difference between that and the one on the picture which makes a $10,000 difference warranted? I'm just asking so we can understand just where there are concessions made that a) actually makes the unit cheaper, and b) allows Yamaha to keep selling what they already have at roughly the same prices.



Remember; your proposed controller, in addition to the above, has:

8 more channels of touch-sensitive motorized faders
1 master fader
full transport section
EQ control ala CC121 - and ALL buttong ON CC121
meter bridge
Input meters
built in compression, 4 band sweepable eq, both with dedicated knobs (presumably)
Dedicated Reverb knob - tacks to onboard Cubase reverb, Hall, plate, room, etc

So what can you lose from the Nuage, after you add the above, to get from $13,000 down to $3,000? This is not just about cost, this is about what a consumer would buy when looking at alternatives.

I was suing what is in the n12 and CC121 now and your pricging for motors and scribble strips

i was off a little but we dont need the eq, comp and verb like the n12 but it was nice for tracking for tweaks

what i proposed is way better than that and totally encompasses the project studio and home studio market, 16 channels of faders and those buttons for 10k or whatever isnt it at all

this blows that away for the home and project studio 1299

https://www.google.com/search?q=yama...TdTOslirDJM%3A

Actually lets make this REALLY simple

add 16 mono tracks to the N12, motorise all keep everything else and add scribble strips

4999

blows EVERYTHING away for cubase

Ok.

So at that price point I'm getting a bunch of stuff I'm not personally interested in (and I respect that you might be) such as analog i/o etc, and a far far bulkier footprint compared to the s3. So if it was me I'd rather get the s3 for more functionality, PT compatibility, and a smaller footprint. I can live with 16 faders as opposed to 27.

I get the ADDA, i use a symphony now and love it, along with quartet channel strips and the lucas mic so i love my front end

take it way back, make fader packs of 8 motorised faders to join the CC 121. cheap and very nice and no nuage person is wanting that

i still think a more robust 24 channel controller is easily made, and easily sold, anyone i ever talki to about cubase wants one from yamaha. the yamaha rep at gearfest said it would be great to code cubase into the new mixers and have the dual purpose

that 32 channel one for 3599 or whatever it is with yamah quality blows the artist stuff away heck it has 32 great preamps, onboard DSP and full control

no on in the nuage market is looking at that at all

but a TON of home guys would want it, and the cost is easy, and alot of guys do double action anyway, now they have it all in one

i used presonus studio live boards live with S1 to mix and put up on websites and the integration between the DAW and conroleer by the same manufacturer was off the charts nice. right nwo presonus is winning this, but their DAW isnt nearly as good and the boards are ok but IMHO not near a ncie yamaha board

yamah and steiny could ocme up wiht something new or code to the new mixers easily. and they would sell like crazy, and would not touch the nuage market at all

no third party controller is as good as what yamaha comes up with when they work with cubase direct. you may have never used an n12 and i know the price was low but i have high end stuff but that n12 never choked, never crashed, and one button for one feature in cubase and it sounded great, looked nice and was really good. S3 ?? its a lvie board, no transport controls unless you code them and missing a ton. to expensive to. although its made better than the artist series

the mixed logic was the best third party board for cubase ever. someone should have taken that over.

again cc121 is 500 bucks, add 8 channel faders packs with the normal button on them for 500 or whatever and for 2K you have 24 channels, master fader, full eq and tons of control

done

those strips they made sucked. anyway we knwo where you stand, you think there is no market for what i am describing, i think there is a huge market and it can be done with a board now already in production or a fader pack for the CC 121 also in production and would not break the bank for home and project person. so lets let that stand. i dont think they will do it, and i think i will just use the cc121 now but i miss hand one with cubase. artist series crashed alot on me, mixed logic wasnt supported well, had some other ones to, the mcu and extenders and mackie werent nearly as good as the n12 with cubase or eucon can be, but avid controls eucon now and it hasnt gotten better for cubase that i can see.

anywa i think thats fine to leave it at that. i will keep bringing this up forever. or until i decide S1 is better with the nice controllers

Indeed. I for one don't want something that only works with Steinberg/Yamaha products unless it is extremely cheap. (So that wouldn't be a full fledged controller). A Eucon controller is really the only thing currently that interests me.

The only way that would change is if Yamaha/Steinberg create a new open standard like they did with VST. I suspect they are rather careful of going down that route after their experience with Eucon and how Avid bought up Euphonix and locked the controller side of that market.

Alistair

It is a nice feeling. A fully integrated mid-range controller for Cubase could be very nice but this isn't about feeling. It is a bout sound business decisions. Mattias is presenting better arguments than you are. Not that you have to convince me of course but if you do come up with convincing arguments you might end up convincing Yamaha and we could all benefit.

I don't know much about the live side of the market. Could it be that the StudioLive CS18AI fills a gap in the live market? That could explain how Presonus could develop and market this product. Also Presonus don't have a Nuage equivalent so there is no risk of the CS18AI cannibalising that market.

Maybe... or maybe they did the maths and decided it was not a good proposition. Impossible to say without knowing a lot of things about Yamaha's business numbers and strategy.

Alistair

You keep missing two of my points, and the first one is that there isn't consensus in the user base or even close to it. Look, you went from a really long post talking about a 24-channel controller with all that the n12 has to only fader packs to supplement the cc121. If even you can't in a sense commit to one realistic proposition, do you think more users can? I mean, it's one thing to moderate one's wishes and another to jump from one extreme to the other.

I bet you Steinberg reps see some of this and just see a bunch of cats running around... you know, as in "herding cats".... If I were them I'd know what I would like to see, but deciding on something that most users would want? Very difficult it seems.

That's not the issue. The issue is at what cost and price.

If a 32 channel unit with "full control" and everything else existed then of course potential Nuage buyers would look at it! If I had a studio in the midrange of the market and was looking at either 16 faders plus control section of Nuage, a total of around $25,000. Why would I not look at a 32 channel controller with "great preamps, onboard DSP and full control"?

Heck, even if I didn't need all that extra stuff I'd buy one anyway and have those features just in case, AND save close to $20,000 in the process!!!

That is the second point. This proposed device would take away from the Nuage market. The only way to fix that is to:

1. drop the price of Nuage or
2. raise the price of this new device or
3. lower the capabilities and/or quality of the new device

Hold on there; the Eucon protocol surely provides far more in-depth control of Cubendo than the n12 does. Is that not correct?

Also, the s3 is not a live board. The s3L is.

Lastly, no, it's not "too expensive" in the sense that you wouldn't spend that absolute amount of money, because in your last post you established that $5k was fine. The only real question is what you get for your money.

I never said that. I said that what is being described is more than one thing, and the big question is if they could create something that enough people would buy at a given price point AND still make a decent profit AND not sacrifice other products in their lineup.

Again, I think users would have a far bigger impact on Steinberg and Yamaha if they rallied behind a realistic proposed device in a realistic price range. If you saw a thread on the official Steinberg forum with a mock-up drawing and description of the device and then 1,000 "+1" comments, AND NOT a discussion about what should be different in the device, don't you think that would have a far bigger impact than users asking for everything from 8 channels to 32 channels, modular to one-piece, deep and wide integration to barebones, meters / no meters, "no more than $1,5000" to "$5k is fine".....

?

For what it's worth, I did post an image earlier of something I would have bought at a lower price point. I'll repost a couple of images and you'll see where my mind is on the actual device.....

Sorry I was trying to show I could use existing devices and do it without much bells and whistles or do something much more in depth

And I have been running around tonight and posting to quickly

Please share ur pics for sure and we will work off them

And if steiny is reading them they may see a lot of ideas but slot of passion to make their product even better

If you want transport with an S3, you can either buy the recently discontinued Artist Transport, or the new Dock. So it is available, but it's obviously a further cost.

For me, the S3 is quite close to being the perfect Cubase controller. No stability issues with Eucon whatsoever for me (on Windows). Most of the ways in which it could be improved are down to software implementation. The hardware ticks most of the boxes already. Team it up with a monitor at the back and you can align the Cubase mixer with your channels, like a Nuage (see attached picture). Works a treat. Really doesn't feel like it was designed for another DAW.

Having said that, I'm sure if Steinberg made something similar, it would be even better and it is hard to understand why they have not done this.

My controller essentials are:
1. Hi res scribble strips i.e. NOT like the 6 character limit of MCU
2. Colour coded channel illumination so I can easily identify my tracks. Same for the buttons ideally. If I assign a button to enable Write Automation, let me make that button red! Then I can easily remember what it is.
3. Maximum customisation of buttons. I want to be able to assign any button to any function
4. Must be able to customise the order that plugin parameters appear on the controller. 100% essential.
5. Should integrate well with a monitor behind the controller (as described above, with the S3)
6. I want either 16 faders, or a modular approach of say 8 x fader modules.
7. A dedicated channel section for control of EQ/dynamics might be a nice bonus if it's implemented well but this is not essential.

Really though, most of what makes a good controller is in how the software is implemented. It's all in the details. e.g. how many buttons do I have to press to edit a particular plugin? Can it do 'VCA Spill'? Does the EQ feel right when I twist the knobs? (i.e. NOT like it does on a CC121). Basically, how many milliseconds do I have to think for before I get to where I want to go?

OR.... for a completely different approach.... a kind of CC121 on steroids could be a great controller. Basically a nicely built controller that has knobs for all common aspects of controlling a single channel. Dedicated EQ, sends, dynamics. Lots of visual feedback i.e. scribble strips for all controls. Excellent implementation of plugin control. A little bit like the Softube Console 1, but open to all plugins and with better visual feedback.

I like your computer keyboard. (I have the same )

Talking about assigning colours and functions, Fairlight did something quite amazing with their Xynergi controller:




For those that don't know, each key and button is a programmable OLED screen. Unfortunately both the price and lack of universality makes it a no go...

Alistair

https://youtu.be/JJ0Y3bKF3ss

Not everyones solution, but the D8B with probox got 24 + 1 motorized faders, pan, meters, transport and so on, using the standard MCU and combining with generic remote settings its quite capable. On the con side - its an old machine, can be noisy if you dont install new power supply. This is the perfect solution for me. I wanted faders and pan knots and this works pretty good.

Yes, this keyboard is great and it shows nicely how colour coding is very useful in speeding up my brain's thought process. It's one of the reasons why I found the S3 to be much better to work on than the Artist Series.

Indeed. These kind of visual cues really speed things up.

On a related note, I wish the GUI designers at Steinberg would understand these kind of things. As an example, they changed the E button from a circle to a square. It might look more homogeneous and pwetty that way but it reduces the speed at which we can navigate the UI. (Our brains literally parse squares and circles in different parts of the visual cortex so they made what was a parallel process, a serial one).

There are endless examples of bad UI design in Cubase but I digress....

I didn't realise the S3 had colour coding for the channels. Definitely a plus point.

Alistair

Yes, this small feature makes a huge difference to the speed at which you can work.

Also, because you can customise the colours in Cubase for EQ/Inserts/Sends etc. I have them set up to match the S3. My Cubase EQ curves are purple. The EQ button on the S3 is also purple and when the S3 is in EQ mode, all the knobs are lit in purple. This means that my brain is programmed that purple means EQ. I don't have to scan around the S3 looking for the button that says EQ. I just look for the purple light.

I can also tell instantly what is currently being controlled by the S3 just by glancing at the colours. Purple = EQ. Yellow = sends. Blue = Inserts etc. The same either on the controller or on the screen.

Also, whatever mode you select on the S3, you will see the relevant tab open in the mixer and inspector. Hit EQ mode and your curves are displayed on screen. Hit Sends mode and your sends are displayed etc.

It's these kind of details that make a controller really useable. Nice hardware is obviously good but if the software implementation is poor then it's a waste of time.

That sounds very neat and useful.

Indeed. That is what it is all about. I have the 18 G keys on the Logitech keyboard programmed with colours and some of the basic things I do regularly. (Fade In+ Fade In-, Fade Out+ Fade Out-, Grid on/off, Grid Abs or Grid Rel, Automation Follows Edit (On/off), Show all tracks, Show all tracks under cursor, Show all active tracks, Invert track selection, Mute/Unmute selected Clips etc etc.)

The keys are sorted by type of actions so the 4 fade keyes are purple, all the channel view keys are green, the mute/unmute key is red eyc, the grid keys are orange etc... It speeds up workflow greatly!

I should really reprogram stuff in the MC Control too. I have it fully programmed for Pro Tools but not really for Cubase. Something for the to do list.

Alistair

I like the look of the S3, but because it started life as a live controller i think there are some things missing for the optimal DAW controller

im not going to get into a price argument because i think its to much at 5K for what you get compared to one of the new Yamaha Live controllers with 32 motorised channels and a master, onboard Dsp, 32 pre's etc BUT we don't need all that either for a controller

so for me since everyone likes the s3, this is what i would add to it to make it perfect for cubase. which is what we are discussing. also i think the S3 is very well made. i have used one at gearfest and was impressed. so this is what i would add, and all these were on yamah boards or are at this very time.

Master FADER
click REMOTE button n12 - turns click on
ADD track N12
PREV /NEXT Buttons n12
Click LEVEL control knob n12 - controls click volume level
REC ready Button n12
ST Mix button, MONO mix button, 5.1 Mix button N12
Full Control Room control Ala N12
ability to select PRe and Post, and CR and BUS metering N12 - SO A MASTER METERING SECTION - ala n12
section of knobs ala cc121 for full eq control in cubase

Dimmer button
Talkback with mic onboard
Control Room Level knob

all on n12 or CC 121

what i like about the Yamaha new consoles is the onboard DSP as well, with stellar plugs off loaded. that would be nice in a controller as well.

personally i would like 24 channels as well

so add all this to an S3 and its an s6

i think yamaha could take the 24 channel live controller and do something like this for the price of an s3 now? but i do not knwo what it would cose, and actually none of us do

i guess if no one sees the benefit of the greatest console maker making a controller for the greatest DAW, and being the same company, them i am def in the wrong place. anytime i talked to other cubase users they all seem to want that and cant figure out why it wont happen. oh well i guess its be content with third party offerings that i feel do not integrate as well as one from Yamaha made specifically for cubase

and yes the n12 TO ME was better than eucon and i had both for years, the one button controls one thing only in cubase was SIMPLE and FAST as hell, and the n12 is made better than the artist series and i would say easily on par with the s3

roland did a nice one for sonar
avid makes nice things for PT
presonus def leading the way now on all these fronts

i get reaper or logic doesn't have a parent company but cubase DOES and the BEST one out there.

I thought we were discussing something that would sit in a segment of the market lower than where Nuage sits??? Not something that is "perfect"...???

So, just to humor the discussion, I'd say that all of the stuff in red above is something I'm more than willing to sacrifice to cut costs. The somewhat obvious alternative is to create a set of buttons that are programmable by the user instead. That way you can have your buttons do what you want, and I can also have it my way.

On the note of buttons though, part of what I see when analyzing workstations is that many people use their keyboards for a lot of things. Some of the functions described above can be triggered by regular key commands. The key difference in my opinion between that and triggering from a dedicated controller is a) that commands coming from the controller may have a different timing (regular qwerty over USB sometimes doesn't trigger as well) and b) that with a dedicated protocol one could hopefully access more or different functions than with key commands.

Ok, so the problem, again, is the Nuage. If all of the above is done at $5k, why would I buy Nuage? There would be pretty much no reason to. So again for Steinberg viewing this conversation it just keeps going from "I only need 8 channels" to "I want 24 channels", and from "Nuage is too expensive, give me something smaller and cheaper" to "the perfect solution at $5k". See?

Nobody is saying there isn't a benefit.

Virtually all of this can be done with an S3 (and probably several other controllers).

If you want to adjust Control Room level, you'll need an Artist Transport or a Dock. Most of the other things can be assigned to any of the soft keys (or even just normal key commands as Mattiasnyc says).

The least they could do is to give their digital mixers a software that connects to cubase in any of the available formats. This way they could use the scaling effects.

Thats what presonus did. Thats all i ask for. Or just open Cubase for the use with the CS18Ai or console 1. Its in their hands.

I totally get you can program the buttons and that fine, even cool if avid has set up to work really well in cubase

while i use an apogee symphony now and the quartet channel strips etc and i am sure you all have your set ups and front end going great

if you never sat down at an N12, and please tell me if you ever did. and you clicked the buttons they built for your cubase workflow, and it worked perfectly no issues, no crashes, and had incredible depth into cubase without layers, jsut the one button, you would see what i am trying to get to

its like they had the n12 and discontinued it instead of adding motorised faders and the ability to add channel pack. there is something about the CC 121 and the N12 that integrate so deeply and quickly and with NO programming anything, plug play and go that for me beats all the third party products. but hey, thats just me

and no i wasnt caring about cost, i want the PERFECT controller for cubase, and i was using the new mixers as a price point because they already have 24 or 32 channels motorised, DSP< even the Preamps are great and was going by the yamaha rep saying "that would be great to have cubase coded into this and nuendo, live and studio guys would lve that"

anyway, no i want the perfect controller, and i think they can land one far deeper than the s3 at that price or less and not challenege the nuage at all

if you guys dont think thats doable then thats fine, just reiterating until you compare a yamaha board built for cubase vs the third part ones its a totally different experience for me

my controllers

mixed logic m24, by the way look at this one its around 4K or 3500 or whatever and it was perfect, because it not only had the faders, 24 and a master, but all the eq and other stuff for cubase. it was built better than the artist and MCU stuff as well. so it was ALMOST there

i had taht and the full suite of artist seriues stuff and eucon, control, 2 mixes and the transport

it was eh at best for me. fader caps flew off, was nowhere near the build of the M24 and the N12 IMHO, sold them.

the cc 121 is nice and works great. just another testament to yamaha hardware and steiny coding, works like a dream. i dont have to program anything at all, it just works wiht a quick plug in. thats waht the synergy would bring here. maybe there is no market for this. maybe yamaha said no way, which they apparently just did recently. but for people like me who like the dedicated controler and hands on if S1 were to come along farther and they come out with a C24 or something that may be it for me. i tried S1 when it first came out and keep my copy up to date, smae with PT, logic, reaper and all the others. i like to fiddle and check things out

like i said, it seems they are not interested, either in something new, or codgin for the new mixers they have out. but i will forever be wishing for something between the 2.

At this point we're just going around in circles.

Nobody is saying what you want can't be done. Nobody is saying what you want wouldn't be appreciated. People are just telling you, over and over again, that since Nuage already exists any other controller that is cheaper has to be "less" of a controller because it is cheaper, because if it isn't the people who would buy Nuage would buy the cheaper one. And since you now keep saying that it has to be "perfect", that means it has to be at least what Nuage is at a fraction of the cost.

You're just not making sense from a business standpoint. If you can't understand that fundamental problem that I expressed over and over then of course you'll never understand why there isn't a "perfect" 24-channel controller for $5,000 or less. I mean, I really don't think it can be explained any more clearly ..... by me at least....

I guess if we knew the numbers and the data they probably have on who would or wouldnt buy what and wwiht what we would knwo alot better if your business analytics were correct or not. If you have inside info then i am fine with that and your numbers and your outlook on this. i looks at what they have already built or have in the market now and think it owuld be nice for them to do something. i also contend no hime or project studio is heading into the nuage territory.

also i guess i am confused because nuage does a TON mroe than what i am asking for. the demo i got was pretty insane what all it does. nothing i have mentioned comes close

So until next year when i bring it all up again! off to record with my cc 121 !

Avid don't configure the EuCon settings for their controllers for Cubase. Steinberg do! Or you can do it yourself! That is the great thing about EuCon controllers.

Also there are quite a few things in your list that I wouldn't want in a cheap DAW controller. Some things make no sense in a DAW controller at any price. For instance a dedicated master fader is a waste of a fader. (It is better to have your DAW's master fader at unity gain anyway). Avid ICON's or S6 or Nuage's don't have dedicated master faders for good reason. They make no sense.

But we all want different buttons on our controllers. I don't want the ones you need and you probably don't want the ones that I need. That is why programmable buttons make much more sense. Single function non-programmable buttons are so 1990 as far as I am concerned.

Programmable buttons with colour coding, screens or, the best of the best, OLED buttons are far superior to static buttons IMO.

You can't just add motorised faders. They probably wouldn't even fit in the chassis. They need to do a full redesign and you say it is discontinued? Why do you think it is discontinued? It can't be because they were selling like hot cakes.

I agree that things should just work from the get go but to me that means good default settings on a programmable controller. Preferably with a choice of basic templates for various types of work flows so that _everyone_ can just start working after unpacking the device.

It is impossible to please everyone at any price point let alone on a cheap device. Programmability is the only way to go in this day and age IMO.

There is no perfect controller and the last thing I want is to pay for DSP and preamps that I have absolutely no use for. So you see it isn't easy to please everyone.

I honestly would prefer having an S3 than an N12. Different strokes for different folks... and that is what Yamaha have to contend with: The huge diversity of tastes and needs of the buying public.

There are some great aspects to the CC121 but for someone like me it isn't ideal either for the simple reason that I don't use the built in Cubase EQs. I would be much more interested in Steinberg extending the VST format with standard controller/plugin maps that any plugin developer could use (or ignore if they so wish) and know that the first button on all Steinberg/Yamaha (or 3rd party) controllers would send a particular message it could react to. In other words, clear standardisation formats. THAT is the kind of thing that makes the market go forward for everyone, not just one company or just some users. (Look at what MIDI did to the music world all those years ago...).

I think you underestimate the cost and greatly overestimate the market for these things.

Alistair

I certainly might

the s3 is easily affordable for me and most project guy, its just not at all what i want, and ocming from eucon with avid now owning it with the full set of artist series i would rather a dedicated yanmaha made cubase controller.

i thought the s3 was nicely built and much better than the artist series especially for live. but for me it didn't cover nearly the bases i wanted and i am very leery of avid controlling the eucon protocol now

i guess if they close it off to the other daw's then there will be an issue. i was also never that happy with how it was coded and when avid took it over i wonder how involved steiny were anymore, when it was before avid i think they helped write it but now? who knwos, maybe they rule with it still

anyway to each their own.

This aspect we fully agree on. It is a shame that EuCon isn't an open standard like VST.

Btw, Avid won't block other companies from using EuCon in their DAWs. That wouldn't make sense. They want to sell their controllers to everyone including users of other DAWs.

What Avid don't allow is for other companies to make hardware controllers that support EuCon. They want to keep that side of the market for themselves.

Alistair