In about a month, Amalgam Audio will release a shootout of Tonex, NAM, QC, and Kemper. Until then I will keep imagining I hear the difference.

I agree that Chuck didn't sell records because of his amp settings ... but you couldn't tell him that! Perfect clip for this discussion/debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiKx1RQqPUE

Don’t stop. Imagination is a wonderful thing. I once imagined the girl I was dating had pants with a Celtic knot pattern on them. Then the acid wore off and I realized she was wearing Levi’s.

I had a friend who played keys in Chuck's band whenever he was in the area. He didn't tour with a band, but just hired musicians locally, which makes sense considering his music. Anyway, he told stories of rookies who accidentally suggested that Chuck tune his often very out of tune guitar. It wasn't pretty.

Results of the Kemper vs Tonex AB are out.

And once again I am vindicated by being completely wrong.

I would think if the Kemper does not work for you, no digital device will. Sound-wise it is pretty much as good as it gets - but does depend on what kind of sounds you are going for.

I had a Kemper for years, and recorded many guitars through it for my own productions and other band projects. Awesome, no question.

After comparing side-by-sdie I went the Fractal route because around 2018 the editing was just much easier than Kemps and not tied to profiles. Some things sounded better in the Kemper, but most of what I was after was as good or better in the Fractal. Classic Fender, Plexi, Vox, etc.

I tried the Quad Cortex, and whilst really good too. Personally don't think it is worth trading in a Fractal unit for. Maybe the Kemper for the reasons mentioned...

Yo, I just found the Direct Mix knob in the Kemper's Amplifier section.
Whaaaatttt.... For high gain tones, this lets you dial in a just the right amount of direct signal. More natural sound. More steak, less sizzle if you know what I mean. Makes things sounds bigger.

I'm just playing around with this tonight, so my opinion may change, but I am liking it so far.

Don't forget about the Pick knob and Dist Sens knob for shaping as well.

I haven't really found much use for Power Sagging, Tube Shape or Tube Bias knobs yet.

That may be the case, but it also depends on personal tastes. I like a very wide range of sounds, but not everything, including traditional amps. We talk about guitar amp sims, but I’ve come across many a guitar amp that did nothing for me, and a few I absolutely hated. There’s a certain type of high gain metal amp that sounds absolutely terrible to me, yet people love it. I remember watching blind taste test between one of them and a modeler and the first thing I thought was, “why?” Alternately, people seem to hate transistor amps, yet two of my favorite amps of all times have been transistor amps. I chose them over tube amps, and never regretted my decision.

People like different amp modelers too. I hated the sound of Line 6 products until recently. We talk about good vs. bad captures, but do you honestly think that anyone makes a capture they think is bad and then upload it? Yet, go on Kemper’s user library or IK’s. Tone.net and there seem to be a ton of ones that I think are crap. Maybe with the right guitar… or the right music… or maybe I just think the capture is crap, or the settings of the amp, or the mic, placement, or maybe I just don’t like that amp.

In the end it all comes down to personal taste, and I’ve picked modelers over the modeled more than once in blind tests. So when someone says, “you can’t get a good tone out of a modeler,” I have to laugh. Do whatever you want, and use whatever you want, but don’t assume that what you like is what everyone likes. It’s really weird, because every single day when I sit down and play I’m always happy with the results, and yet a crowd of unknowns seems hell bent on telling me I’m wrong. I hope they don’t bother their parents from the basement.

What do you mean by "unique character?"

To your understanding, what gives an amp its specific character? ie Marshall vs Vox. Do not be reductionist.

Be as specific, technical and detailed as possible. Techs please wait until the digital people demonstrate what they mean before chiming in on what makes an AC-30 an AC-30.

Do have to know how to build a Soldano to know how it feels and sounds?

You are dodging the question,

In our subjective world, everyone hears things differently, what people listen for to determine the character of a piece of gear is dramatically different.

Allowing for this, we allow that all perspectives on the subject may have validity, and we can learn from all of them.

I maintain that yes, knowing how a Soldano works will go quite far in dialing in that perfect model and finding the perfect capture, absolutely. Conversely, digitally modeling a circuit is super helpful to know how it will work in the analog realm. It works both ways. Technical stuff is outside the subjective world so it gives us a common dialogue too.

I bought captures of four different Tweeds. How would you know how they feel and play if I did post their specs? By twisting knobs on the graphical interface of digitally modeled plugins?

I didn't even say post specs. I said be as detailed as possible as to what the character of an amp is for you. Non-technical explanations are fine.

Those words are meaningless, marketing, hot air, hype without some kind of context

You’re only going to get nonsensical responses.

Read m answer and the post to which I answered again.
Its of no interest of me and its of even less interest of the Profiler, to know how and why an amp has an unique character. If you can record the amp and hear the unique character (and thats a term brought up by the toob guys here) in the recording, then it can be captured.

If you dial in a sound you like, then that's it. Who cares if thats the sweet spot or the spot where others find the magic lies?

Especially with black box modelling you (and the developer of the modeller) doesn't have to know (in detail) how the amp works.

How do you express in non-technical words how a real amp feels and plays when you lower the volume on your guitar?

I'd prefer a nonsensical ramble over outright avoiding any description at all of what they listen for. I didn't ask for technical explanations per se.

A tech that is modding, building and doing component swaps, a recording engineer that plays guitar, a hobbyist who hasn't used amps in years, a session player, and a touring guitarist will all listen for different things. Even among those categories each individual will has their own way of listening.

All will have very different perceptions of what the character of an amp will be.

And they might argue on the internet about how well that character gets captured by an amp simulator.

The hobbyist that hasn't used amps in years should not insist that their perception is objectively right, and neither should the tech or the session player. No one should.

Why make it so complicated?!?

The AI doesn't need any perception of what the character of the amp is. It tests how the amp reacts (on a certain setting of the amp) to incoming signals over the whole frequency spectrum and the whole dynamic range and finds a way to reproduce that.

That's what profiling does. Certain setting of amp -> test tones -> build model on how amp reacts to those tones.

For what reason are you dodging cleaning up amps with the controls on your guitar?

I've been working all day, and then working on installing a Jazzmaster pickup in the neck of my new Esquire if you must know. Routing was a pita and the cat is doing laps from my lap to my shoulders so I am not as eloquent as I might be.

You want me to give a quick take in sorta-technical terms?

The EQ curve changes. How it changes depends on the amp.

In a standard Fender/Marshall/Vox tone stack, there is a dip in the mids that gives part of the character. A Fender differs from a Vox in that the dip is at a different frequency.

How much of a dip and where it's at changes.

Side note - Leo Fender and co. designed the tone stack like that to tailor the sound for his guitars- everyone copied it.

More harmonics start to pop up (sound brightens).

Subjective opinion: with a good amp, the transition to breakup has a wide curve, so you have a lot of room to play with. With a bad amp, it goes straight to from clean to clip (distortion) with no curve or a short curve.

If the speaker is being pushed hard it starts to gradually break up as well. I read a good white paper on what happens with speaker breakup but am too tired to summarize in non technical terms.

If there is IM distortion (beating in non technical terms) from a cheap analog circuit (cheapest solid state) or from aliasing, there are a host of things that can pop up. It's not always predictable. A flatter sound often is one. The layman's test for a flatter sound is just - is my vibrato coming through as well?

Or simply, a bad amp masks subtle playing and is less dynamic, while a good amp brings out subtle playing and then takes you all the way past breakup without a touch of the volume knob.

There is a lot more to consider but that's a start about what I personally think about and listen for.

One of us is open about their subjective take on things. Perhaps for someone else none of that matters. I might be able to learn from that person. I am interested in subjective takes and technical both.

The Kemper is still one of the best sims, imo, as compared to the Axe FX 3, Helix and QC. And I'm not aware of anything else which might be better except ToneX. Or maybe those nifty UA sim in a pedals. Which I don't need to try. Because they all have a similar sound and properties, and if someone dislikes one, they are likely to dislike all, imo,

That has nothing to do with your own take on what gives an amp its unique character.

I am guessing you don't rely on pure faith that the algorithm is good, Tonex take the wheel, thing, right?

That’s probably true.

Nobody is going to play a digital piano if they have a great real piano they can play. The same applies to amps, drums, brass etc.

Different worlds and situations. But I can say since I got into Tonex, I play guitar more and I play my amps more than ever.

How do you feel about the other compromised options? Amp into loadbox/OX, Iso cab and so on.

tender would.

I am not into the load box thing and see no need for them. The only thing it really works with is those hi-gain amps, and a sim works just as well for that.

I play pure clean a lot, no need for excessive volume, and in most cases I vastly prefer the sound of mic'ing a guitar amp/speaker in the air than a sim or going direct in any way. If I must have distortion at lower volume, I get better results with any decent tube amp and pedals than sims or load boxes.

I rely on my taste and if I like a sound I like a sound and if a sound fits a song and I like it I will use.

That's all I need to know.

If you care about if the algorithm is good or not: take an ABX blind test.

What you talk about never was showcased before Tonex came up. Now it is.

Wrong and wrong.

This is like a convo with a religious nut.

All you digi folks are too scared to share anything about your own perception. Well, at least I know you, yourself personally never considered this stuff before. Well, there is a lot more to it than my brief post, I will say that. Important things that by your own admissions you don't need to know because it's too technical.