There is something both retro and "space age" (in a fun Jetons way) about the look of the VAX77. I would definitely use that as my main keyboard onstage!

Though looking at the pictures, I would never guess you could fold it in half. LOL.

It's a shame that most keyboard controllers are such unimaginative, plastic pieces of junk. Even the "higher end" Arturia controllers lack the fit and finish and perfect synth key action of my Virus TI2, for instance. And the Virus isn't even a "stage" keyboard (although apparently Depeche Mode used them as their touring keyboards for several tours). The Waldorf Quantum MK2 is probably my favorite modern keyboard in terms of build quality. The industrial design is out of this world. Not foldable though.



Five seemingly intractable problems in the MI industry come to mind that I would spend my days trying to solve if I won the lottery. While other people worked on world peace, ending hunger, and curing diseases, I would make controller keyboards that didn't suck as one of those five things.

Everyone deserves a controller keyboard that at least aspires to Quantum MK2 heights (in terms of aesthetics and build) to take on stage.

Oh yeah, don't get me started. For me, the ideal controller was the Kurzweil MIDIBoard, and nothing has really come close. For some reason people think an 88-key piano-weighted keybed shouldn't have polyaftertouch. The Yamaha Montage M8X is the closest anyone has come to it, as I have mentioned elsewhere I would love a dedicated controller based on it.

As far as the VAX77, Eddie Jobson toured for years with four of them (a two-tier setup with two in reserve), and never had any problems. Each VAX controlled its own MacBook Pro running MainStage; a third MacBook Pro was for his violin. The headphone jacks were the main outputs to the FOH Board! He was basically recreating his entire keyboard rig in software. For the CS-80 he layered Arturia CS80V with OmniSphere.

As much as I like to dunk on "dumb" workstation keyboards, I have to admit that I was super impressed by the Montage M8x, which I recently saw for the first time in my local Guitar Center (that I hadn't been in in over 10 years).

The M8x is imposing! I was mesmerized like the apes in 2001.



And the piano action is out of this world. I'm no concert pianist. But the difference between the Casio Privia "upright" electronic piano I have in my living room and the M8x is night and day.

But geez, it probably takes two people to move the M8x.

Fortunately, I have no plans to move mine!

My local, normally useless Guitar Center got one in, the sales guy led me to believe that Yamaha Corp. themselves were depositing Montage Ms in GC so that they could be demoed.

The piano action is slightly on the lighter side, but selecting the "Hard 1" velocity curve makes a huge difference. I am very happy with it as a piano controller. The PolyAT is pretty amazing, it is firm with a reasonable amount of resistance, very controllable, and it doesn't "squish" down. So there is this whole massive synth attached to my MIDI controller here, I am just scratching the surface of understanding it; it's like learning a new language.

Briefly back on topic: I prefer Pianoteq to the onboard piano sounds, but I have always been a big Pianoteq fan. The latest firmware update includes MIDI 2.0, so I am hoping to figure out how to implement High Resolution MIDI Velocity.

I didn't realize that "VSTs" stood for Very Silly Trousers in this thread. How silly of me to think we would be discussing plugins.

It was me. I didn't care much for being called stupid and lazy, and made a snide comment. Hilarity ensued.

Since I derailed this train (but let's face it -- this thread was already off the rails), here are the VSTs I no longer use:

Waves -- Purchased a *ton* from Plugin Alliance, both individually and the Silver Bundle. Then I got smacked in the sack by the WUP drama, so never again. I leave this as an object lesson for any other developers who might get the notion that double-dipping into your customer base is a good idea.

Beatskillz RetroKZ bundle: [sigh] I don't know what possessed me to buy this. Beatskillz killed this product.

Oh man, this list is looong.

In fact, I have blown so much $ on now-defunct plugins, it has made me reconsider hardware.

In the meantime, I'm only buying plugins from companies with a proven track record, ones that have been around for a while and support older products.

For all the hate they get online, I think Waves has been really good in this regard. Yeah, WUP kinda sucks, but they still update and support their very first plugin (Q10 I think) which is now thirty years old!

As for keyboard controllers, I currently use a Korg D1 which feels pretty great for the money but has no pitch bend and mod controls. I use my old Fantom X7 when I need that.

Yeah, and hey, I get it, I've dealt with some ~specialized~ circumstances where a Fantom or whatnot wouldn't cut it in terms of or on different levels, and yeah, I've always been the guy who would personally prefer to use my Mac and keyboard controller,

...but I fully recognize that is, or can be, a sliding scale... as things can go wrong.

Even with just triggers etc, on a big tour, you need redundancy... and 30 second boot up time isn't cutting it on that at all... and a lot of those real gigs and will find you in a problem. So you have to have redundancy with a switch in that case...

And for the most part, let's face it, even while I am not a workstation/rompler person myself at all, I recognize and respect what they bring to many... and for a gigging musician, or a songwriter that just simply ffs needs access to competent sounds to get down/present their idea/sonics.... cool.

that is how it is actually done in most realities I encounter.

And yeah, I've been the idiot who brings the cpu onstage in Japan, after flying from Australia after New Zealand and coming off 30 shows in either Europe or the States... and when something goes wrong.. I've been fortunate enough to have techs and other hard working people to rely on to make the a/b change...

and that simply happens 'less' if you can do what you do just using a good workstation synth etc if you aren't pulling from outside the norm in terms of certain things..

and is safer....

I've been there in Lisbon or Paris or damn Dallas when my MacBook Pro playing patches etc goes down, (while I'm playing guitar or whatever as the synth or sound was ancillary but still important to the show and I was responsible for it's trigger and providing)... and it sucks if not with an attentive tech, or having to deal with that...

TL/DR: I get why gigging musicians playing general stuff would probably be better off using those devices than personally what 'I' would prefer in terms of the studio recording or whatever nonsense I have in my brain...

You want what works. And what you can trust. And I haven't seen a Roland Fantom crashing onstage ever as opposed to the other, ... but also understanding that said Roland Fantom might not cover the needs of a performer on all levels...

but if it does... good. go with it.

There are too many people who talk about things without having actually played 1000's of shows and whatnot in different countries and different situations...

and what they think reads well on paper does not translate to real world security and comfort and reliance of execution without additional expense and concern.

Just is what it is.

The Mpc 2 software, not quite a plugin , but can be used as one , I brought that when they added maschine controller support , used it once with the maschine controller, I did spend another afternoon converting Mpc kits to load them in maschine , which I never used.

Logic Pro , I brought that 10 years ago , to replace cubase , which I sold , so I could buy a maschine studio , had some apple vouchers that I got cheaper than face value , so I think I paid £90 for it and at the time it was £120 .
couldn’t get into it , due to it being different to cubase , especially 10 years ago , and it didn’t play nice with maschine , so it just sits on my desktop, and gets updated when available, but never really used .
Really Wish Apple would let you used the fx plugins and wot not , in other daws

I haven’t used the laptop on stage all that much, just did a mini tour in 2023 where I used it with GigPerformer as a sound module, because the backline wasn’t consistent in every venue.
It was actually rock solid, the only thing that caused occasional problems was Roland Cloud wanting to phone home to the mothership, usually during soundcheck, thank God. It would not load the instruments until I had gone online and log in to my account yadda yadda, very unprofessional, especially as I pay annually so why would it need to, other than once a year.

I have traveled and used my laptop on gigs abroad when I wouldn’t know what keyboards would be provided, but that’s really the only thing that has popped up as a potential hazard. Honestly, before Roland Cloud I never had any issues.

To be fair, I usually only have it do auxiliary sounds using the keyboard on the top-tier, while using the bottom-tier keys’ internal sounds for meat and potatoes like piano, EP, clav etc.

The one time the computer really messed up on the job was when I was foolish enough to rely on Apple Music for the playback of two songs at a wedding. I downloaded the songs, did the soundcheck and it was fine, but when they were supposed to play during the event, nothing. It was bad.

yeah, lol, I don't think I would be relying on Roland Cloud to not have a hitch onstage over time across different time zones etc...

(btw: they make it crystal clear they need to check in at least or around every month or so, so no surprises there)

(and that doesn't mean I don't love what I love about Roland Cloud,... I just wouldn't want to be sitting in Detroit or London and having some login issue kinda thing... no...)

Hell, we all know at this point on a tour etc to have a backup system ready to go... and one that relies on damn online 'checking in' is not one I would prefer to go with... and why certain products dropped off the menu...

I've worked with many engineers who had to deal with side playback/recording doing certain things/tracks and other things with PT etc, but when they (Avid) started f'ing with that..I guess they modified what they were doing... or not or whatever...

I use VSX all the time. It's been a big help since my room is not optimal. Soundtoys I use in pretty much every mix, especially Echo Boy, Decapitator, and MicroShift.

I use Melodyne for all my vocal tuning, and Superior 3 for most of my midi drums. Certainly not the only option, but my favorite.

I have NI Komplete Ultimate 12. For composing and doing production FX in songs I regularly use Damage, Evolve Mutations, Rise & Hit, Hybrid Keys, Ethereal Earth... Especially in conjunction with the Soundtoys effects.

Yeah, guess I didn’t read the fine print. By the time this first happened on stage I wasn’t gonna rebuild the entire show without RC, so I decided to just deal with it. Would have been bad if it happened in a place where there was no network…

To be fair, I complained about this and they did say they that “a future version of the annual membership may offer that functionality” (i.e. turning off telemetry).

We’ll see…

Hey, I don't blame Roland (or you) for that... ffs.. but I do hate assets that need to "check in" , and it would be really inconvenient if you had to do so on stage .... for f*cks sake again... not cool and bullsh1t....

Hell, I've gone to the arctic circle with it and used it, but I checked in 'prior' ... (it needs a one month window or so)... but yeah... nothing like inconvenience right? not so much for me in the arctic circle for that as you on stage....

SlickEQ GE. Realized I prefer the Pro-Q styled EQs way more. Sounds great though.

lol I quite often do the exact opposite. I use the analogue rig to compose (zero latency) and then sometimes replace ALL the hardware synths with VSTs. Depends on what I am going for. I do track down some modular stuff that I could not produce exactly. Love the sound of some VSTs. Zero noise, zero distortion. Rich, warm if you want. Never quite cracked a real TB303 sound so end up using a real one or abstract instruments Avalon.

Slick EQ is mostly parallel. So not an equivalent comparison. I have the mastering version and love it. I replaced Pro Q with Kirchhoff.

I don't like the way they sound. Haven't tried them all. Probably some good ones.

The few times it happened, I could just hotspot the laptop and get it online. But what if this had happened at a venue where there is no signal? Screwed.

To me, the only Roland Cloud plugin that can't be replaced by better-sounding alternatives is the D50. Nothing sounds quite like it. Of course, the D50 isn't a staple of most live players' sets, so that probably isn't a consideration for most people.

I suppose one could argue that no plugin can replace Zenology Pro either. But there are plenty of ROMpler-style plugins (e.g., Korg Triton Extreme) that can cover similar territory. Even HALion 7 would be a better option, in terms of sound quality, variety of sounds, and versatility, IMO.

So there doesn't seem to be much reason to use Roland Cloud for live performance. I suppose if someone were just starting out and didn't have the budget to replace the various Roland Cloud emulations with those from Arturia, Softube, TAL, et al, a Roland Cloud Premium subscription might be attractive. But as much as I am an advocate for using a laptop for live performance, I wouldn't want to risk having to connect with Roland Cloud at the worst possible moment. There are times when I can't use my phone as a hotspot because I don't have cell reception. Like you said, you would be screwed.

I like Zenology Pro. It is basically all of Roland's rompler sounds from the last 30 years. Not quite all, but close to.

While others may have emulated their classic synths, AFAIK their rompler stuff is theirs alone. Roland has its own sound signature, and I like being able to access that ITB.

But yeah, the telemetry is a reason not to use them for live performance.

To address the first issue, in regards to "checking in" with Roland Cloud... it's not like using cloud iLok or something... as you only have to do so once a month or so... so if you did it this morning or last week it's not a problem... I've never had it pop up at an inopportune time kinda thing..

I've literally used it in the Arctic Circle, and on boats in the Adriatic with no internet, or limited or whatever... and just "checked in" before going there. Then I turn off the RCM whatever and move on... it has never been a problem in that regard.

I'm not personally a fan of romplers and the Zenology stuff 'myself', as it's not my thing or targeted at what I do (but I get why it is for others absolutely)...

but I having or having had the OG units, I haven't found any software that beats the ACB modeled 'legacy' units of the Roland Cloud (or their previous standalone plugs etc).. and I honestly like TAL and love Uhe etc, but having an sh-2 or 101 in front of me, or Jupiter 8 etc, they aren't better than the Roland acb models at all... (but are good instruments in their own right without question)... and certainly wipe the smirk off anything Arturia plastic for sure... but I also get playing live in a venue is a different creature in terms of discernment on that kind of thing if that is what is being discussed here... it's not as microscoped as in other areas with all else going on...

And yes, I completely get not wanting yet another damn subscription service ffs..... as enough already of that... and not for 'live' work reasonably....

I get why I, or others would use a cpu based system live or whatnot, as familiarity and comfort with it, and with techs and backup redundant systems etc, or just being on top of it... but I also understand why someone would want a one stop solution that is "good enough" that you aren't worried about all the rest of the faff and gets it done... as I don't think the audience in general is going to be scratching their chins in disappointment over whether that mellotron patch on a rompler/all in one/workstation matches up to either a real mellotron, or GForce's excellent version etc for the most part... but I guess all these things are context dependent, and what one feels secure with.

I guess I should have been more specific.

The bread and butter rompler stuff is just outdated and can't compete with modern instruments. But there are certain sounds (mostly of the Eric Persing variety) that have become classics for me, and I love having them around.

But for live keyboard performance, some of those sounds just kind of work. The detail and richness that newer sample libraries have do not always translate well in a live setting.

So while I use the new stuff, I've noticed that I get there quicker when I mix in some RC and Korg Collection. Not nearly as realistic, but easy to make them work in a band context.

In all honesty, that could just be because I have a history with them and know what works and doesn't. It's just so convenient to have these keyboards from twenty years ago in my laptop.

But your comments on the ACB stuff have got me curious. Gonna go back and look at those.

Oh I totally get you... and yeah, a lot of the nuances of 150GB scripted Kontakt libraries are not needed live in that regard (again,... depending... as all of this can be different for a range of musicians/artists/performers etc...)..

and as you said, knowing where to go and what works in specific situations with certain things you have that amazingly can be done now fairly effortlessly with an m-chipped Mac book or something whereas before etc.... those machines really hold their water in terms of performance and whatnot.. it used to take a lot more you know?

And yeah, I'm not saying one 'should' rely on RC stuff for a live show if they don't want to or anything... I'm just saying that it shouldn't be seen as an impediment if one wants to... it's not like it will shut off if it can't connect or anything like certain plugin protections require...

and regarding acb, I was a real doubting thomas on their announcement (hell, a decade ago?).... and said so here and whatnot on this site... and ended up apologizing to Roland and their people ultimately in person, as they DID get it right with their tech on that...

I'm not saying every interface they make to deal with their stuff is perfect or whatnot... but sonically... I've sat there with a lot of the real counterparts, and messed around the extremes of the parameters (where things tend to break down),... and while it certainly is more cpu intensive (and was on my 5,1's back in the day etc...).. it's not a problem for apple silicon or modern machines in use... and while I'm not a purist in that sense... I just like the musicality of them, and a few other devs in particular like Uhe and GForce etc that seem to respect either what they are 'emulating', or devise a user interface that is encouraging to be creative on..

Nope, but SlickEQ M and Nova are parallel EQs.

I've done well to limit my plugin purchases to what I know what I'd like/use, so most of what I have that I don't use is freeware (wish I could say the same for microphones, guitars and fiddles). Looking through my plugs the only ones I paid for and don't use are EL's BIG FrEQ and some of the UAD plugins that came with the bundle that included all of the native UA plugs, so I don't know if that counts.

I bought FrEQ because I love Arousor, no knock on it I just have plenty of other EQ's that I'm more familiar with. Same with the UAD plugs - none of them are bad, I just have others that do the same thing just as well (and I wouldn't have paid for them if they weren't in the bundle).

There's just so much good freeware out there whether by independent devs or say a PSP freebie, that if I'm going to pay for something I'm going to trial it first and it better knock my socks off. A few that did:
Inspirata (reverb)
UAD Hitsville, Sound City, Verve Analog Machines
Arousor
Cherry Audio Wurlybird, Chroma, Lowdown, and Blue3 (nee GG audio)
UVI for sampler stuff - I just gel with it much better than NI

I'm not a "Doubting Thomas" as I own the Arturia, TAL, and Softube versions of the Roland ACB plugins. All I can go by is my own ears. And the Roland stuff doesn't sound any better to me than the competition. If anything, the Softube emulations sound more authentic.

To me, it comes down to the UI and preset browser, where Roland's are objectively the worst. TAL is the only developer who gets it as far as the UI is concerned. Their interfaces make much better use of screen real estate by rearranging the controls in a more sensible layout (at least for a software program).

Arturia seems to have kicked off the unimaginative skeuomorphic design trend of simply mimicking the hardware keyboard, complete with a pointless keyboard. I suppose Softube is even worse by adding faux scratches and blemishes to their UIs. If their plugins didn't sound so good, they would be cringeworthy.

But hats off to Arturia and Softube for including proper browsers that support collections and tags. Of course, neither company's browsers are on the level of Spectrasonics' and u-he's, but they are certainly better than Roland's.

I've forgotten all about those and I'm very happy. Ignorance is bliss indeed. They're not on my drive as I typically with time clear out stuff I don't use.

Some ridiculous $1 purchases comes to mind, but the names are forgotten. I vaguely remember some being quite well sounding. But I had other tools.

I too have several plugins that I bought and rarely ever use, some of them by brands that are very much revered here on GS (Black Rooster, Klanghelm, Fuse Audio or Tokyo Dawn). I don’t fret about it, because the prices were all rather low, and it just so happens that I don’t gel with them, sometimes because of the UI/UX, sometimes because they are too complex and in recent years, I just seem to prefer the simpler stuff.
I also have hardware that I bought and don’t use anymore, my DSI Evolver has been sitting in its box for several years now, and some guitar pedals I haven’t even looked at in a long time.
I never sell software that I don’t use anymore, can’t be arsed, but I will sell cheap-ish hardware that is of no use to me or for which I have better solutions.

I was warned long ago about how it's easy to get way too many plugins and never use them, so I buy with that in mind, and I try to stick to full manufacturer bundles to save money and limit my spending a bit. I was super excited to get the Arturia V Collection, but I can't even remember the last time I used one of their VSTs. I turn to Roland Cloud way more frequently.