It's not purely the sounds that make Roland Keyboards like the Fantom sell. It's the full package of hardware and software. No matter how good alternate software gets, playing it on a cheap plastic midi controller and carrying round a $3k laptop to boot is not happening. The average gigging musician will stick with their Roland/Yamaha/Korg because they are good enough. Much as I love Keyscape for playing at home, my Fantom 0 is staying.

The Roland synth sound is also a classic and is not going to be displaced by an upgraded anything. Like Moogs and Oberheims, Roland synths have established a sonic legacy that is desirable to many people.

I would use Omnisphere a lot more but it is close to the abandon pile because for all the nice pads, not supporting Sostenuto for live playing is a showstopper to me.

This is the sort of hyperbolic nonsense I hear all the time. You can get a brand new base model M4 MacBook Air for $999, which is more power than you will ever need for live performance. Even the "skimpy" 16GB of RAM and 256GB of storage is enough for a live rig.

Plus, who said anything about using a "cheap plastic MIDI controller"? Pair your MacBook Air with one analog poly that has a good keyboard action like the Behringer UB-Xa (which also features polyphonic aftertouch), and you would be set.

You are living in an uninformed past, my friend.

Weren't you just making a "no compromises" argument? And yet dumb, archaic Roland/Yamaha/Korg workstations are "good enough." Huh?

I guess just like the 1986 Casio SK-1 "sampling keyboard" has a cheeseball charm, the endlessly recycled, warmed-over Roland ROMpler sound going back to the 1990s has some appeal in certain quarters.



The modern equivalent (at least "spiritually"):



Roland synths like the Jupiter 4/8, Juno 60, JX-3P, Alpha Juno, MKS-80, D-50, JD-800 (which smartly steers clear of ROMpler territory) and even the JP-8000 are classics. The JV-1080 and successor ROMplers only serve to tarnish that legacy.

Since you didn't specify how far back hehe
Gigastudio
Garritan Personal Orchestra
Reason 3 - 6
Diva

Each to his own I guess..

Good or bad, I would almost bet there is more 'synth' music in existence that was made with the JD/JV/XV series and beyond than any of those 'classics'.

Hey, even I was seduced by the ROMpler madness that gripped the 90s! I owned a JV-1080, then an XV-2080 (with eight expansion boards,) and finally a fully-loaded XV-5080. However, I swear I used those synths on maybe five occasions over all those years. They just sounded small and shrill to me. My analog/hybrid synths, VA synths, and samplers sounded SO much better. Nothing has changed, really.

I keep thinking I should buy Zenology Pro "so I can have all those classic Roland sounds on hanad." But then I load up the Zenology player and listen to the sounds and say to myself, "There is a reason you used your Roland ROMplers all of five times. This stuff is pure cheese." So I put my credit card away. Of course, I then spend the money on something else I don't need.

But Zenology Pro isn't using ACB tech is it?

ACB>>>>>ACM...

I am in total agreement here. I was looking at Waldorf M just to get that classic sound, and Microwave 1 on iPad blew me away. Same thing with a lot of other synths on the market nowadays, there is some crazy iPad alternative that gets you like 90% of the way there... and you're gonna add a bunch of layers, effects and processing anyway, so who cares?

Except that hardware feel of course. But, it has been getting much easier to map midi nowadays with the abundance of big hardware controllers. You can clone any synth you want into "hardware" as long as you have all the knobs and labels for them.

Pay for the good stuff then... https://www.studiologic-music.com/

Same. Even bought a Roland INTEGRA-7... it sounded nice actually, but it was designed to be layered. Kind of crazy how all the zen core boxes are basically using the same PCMs of INTEGRA-7 (just a much smaller subset). INTEGRA-7 was really the precursor to the zen core architecture I think.

Zenology ZEN-Core is ABM (Analog Behavior Modeling), not ACM. And yes, ACB (Analog Circuit Behavior) is considered superior.

We clearly have a very different definition of good stuff. The studiologic keyboard feels dreadful to play. I'd rather suffer a Casiotone than that monstrosity.

As a fully paid up member of the weekend warrier club that still leaves their bedroom and plays live gigs with actual music for paying punters , that no doubt classifies me as living in the past.

But uninformed? Definitely not. The reality of live gigging is that absolute sound quality doesn't matter. Multi gigabyte sample libraries surpassed hardware years ago. Yet in a live scenario, no one will notice or care whether the piano is a 1980s Korg or Roland 100k sample or a VSL piano taking 300 GB. In fact, the Roland/Korg option usually will fit better into a live mix.

The key point is that sound quality is not the be all and end all. As long as it is good enough, a hardware workstation will beat an unergonomic laptop and midi controller on price, convenience, ease of use, reliability and setup/set down time. Laptops and high quality VSTs have been around for over a decade and yet the majority of gigging musicians still prefer hardware. It's another reason why VSTs get bought but quickly forgotten. Certainly not the main reason and no doubt a minority of people, but it still is a factor.

Yeah, it was a rhetorical question..

I don't get the thrill on Zencore personally. I really like ACB, but I don't need an integra-7 itb, or that by another name..

I can see why others might...

We can agree that sound quality is less important in a live context than ease of use. But how on earth is a workstation keyboard more ergonomic than a MacBook Air and an analog synth as your controller keyboard? Because they aren't physically connected? Huh?

Several affordable stands allow you to place a laptop over your keyboard (which you can affix to the stand with velcro if you are really paranoid about it getting knocked over). Something like this:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...547ee84f72256c

Pair the laptop with a "workhorse" analog poly like the Sequential REV2 and use its more generous complement of knobs to control your software synths via MainStage. If you really must have those Roland ROMpler sounds, buy Zenology Pro or get a Roland Cloud subscription to access all of the "Legendary" and Zenology synths simultaneously (something you can't do on a Fantom) and perhaps even configure them within the Roland Cloud "Galaxias" host plugin.

A setup like this will not only sound better, but be far more versatile.

Gigging musicians prefer workstation synths for the same reason my mom prefers a flip phone. Because that's all she knows. (And I hate to say it, she is lazy when it comes to stuff like this.) Although she has never tried, she is convinced she can't "figure out one of those new gadgets," even though a smartphone is easier to use than her flip phone. What can I do? I love my mom and thus indulge her. I wouldn't be so charitable with another keyboard player in my band.

And introduce more potential points of failure when you're just trying to get through the night playing Journey covers for people drinking cheap pitchers.

Just bring a serviceable workstation to the gig, plug it in, done. No fuss no muss.

a few years ago i forced myself to get aquainted with reason and studio one stock content. since then its only been that, a few softube fx and a couple rack extensions. analog lab here and there but thats it. unburdened my system of everything else

I guess if you are taking just one keyboard, that makes some sense. However, in that case I would bring a controller keyboard with a decent keyboard action (they do exist) and plug it into the laptop with a single 3-foot USB-C cable and connect the laptop to my keyboard amp or the PA via a small USB-C to audio adapter. (No need for an audio interface with a Mac.)

The USB-C cable is your only "point of failure" in that setup. And come on, who worries about a USB-C cable failing?

You don't even need power. The MacBook Air can run all night (literally all night) on its battery (while powering the controller keyboard). Again, what is there to worry about unless you are paranoid about your computer crashing in the middle of a show? But even that is not the end of the world, given that modern Macs boot in about 30 seconds (and your MainStage setup can be set to autoload). So again, what's the worry?

Anyway, I can bat away these silly concerns all day. But that's not the point of this thread, unless the unused VSTs in question were intended to be used for live performance, and it was all too much for the person to handle.

Some people claim unicorns exist.

Nah I get what you're saying re: Mac + controller, that'd be perfectly viable.

(But I'd be worried some dumbass would throw a beer into my Mac. If it was an old beater Juno-D I wouldn't care as much )

too many to list, which is why I dont buy any software at full retail anymore.. most of it ends gathering digital dust..

The unicorn does exists

It costs 10K and is called Rhodes MK8 with MIDI out (with PolyAT).

Bring that, a ROMPLER like Integra and a desktop analog (like the OB6 or OBX8) and you have a live setup that can do anything and will pretty much always work (if the synths break, just play the Rhodes electrically through an amp).

Contrary to your assumptions, I've done the gigging with a midi controller and laptop for over a year. That is why I first bought Omnisphere and Keyscape. I do have Roland Cloud and have used Zenology Pro. I've also used GForce OB-X, Korg M1, B3 organs and Moog plugins plus Steinberg Halion on gigs. Yet I got fed up of the extra work setting up the rig each time and being the one the band are waiting for. When you only have 5 mins to setup between bands, time is precious and fixing an extra tier to a keyboard stand, unpacking the laptop and cables, plugging in the audio interface all take it up. With a pressured day job, keeping everything simple and stress free matters. Computer free is another bonus. It doesn't get any simpler than plugging in a keyboard and switching it on. I sold my midi controller and went and bought a Fantom. Because it just works.

I now have more flexibility than ever. I have a powerful single board solution that I can supplement with a laptop whenever I choose. I can bring another of my keyboards or synths, I can add any VSTs I want. The Fantom makes the perfect midi controller with 16 parts available at the touch of a button for any combinations of layers and splits with both it's own internal sounds and external boards. It also has pads for triggering samples and a sequencer (not that I use them - but maybe one day I will). It also includes a sampler so I can record any of my VST sounds and play back alongside the built in tones.

So, for me, a workstation is the ultimate solution. And it isn't either /or. I have the choice of gigging with a laptop any time I want to. But right now, it is more hassle than I can be bothered with. Workstation wins every time.

Okay, if you have tried it both ways, and you prefer the Fantom, more power to you.

If money is no object (and you are unconcerned about playing live with a $3,000 keyboard,) there is no question that a Fantom 6 EX is a nicer keyboard than an Arturia Keylab 61 mk3, for instance. The lighted encoders and sliders on the Fantom are a particularly nice touch:





I'm just doing the math (which is a different issue from which is more convenient):

Fantom 6 EX: $3,199

Arturia Keylab 61 mk3: $549
13" M4 MacBook Air (16GB RAM, 256GB SSD): $999
Apple MainStage (including all Logic instruments): $30
Zenologoy Pro: $220
TOTAL: $1,798

I (obviously) would prefer to pocket the $1,400 difference (beer money!,) especially knowing that I wouldn't have to haul around a very heavy keyboard (the Fantom,) and could use the laptop to pull up song lyrics, etc. while at the gig (and would also have a great travel laptop for vacations, etc.).

But to each his own.

EDIT: People keep mentioning the "extra setup time" and "audio interface," etc. However, as I pointed out in a separate post, if all you bring to a gig is the KeyLab and the MacBook Air, there is literally nothing to set up. You connect the controller and the laptop via a USB-C cable and run a single stereo audio cable from the laptop to the amp or PA. You don't even need to plug in the power! The setup time for this is less than a minute. But whatever.

Claiming to speak on behalf of all gigging keyboard players while calling them stupid and lazy? Damn -- where do you buy your pants? Is there a boutique you can buy them off the rack, or do you have them specially made? I mean, with balls that big...

Fantom 06 $1,599

Obviously for those of us who aren't professional musicians, money is no object as we get paid for our work.

It's groovy I guess

I hate to be 'that grumpy guy', but I think this thread is another example of the often misunderstood use of terms in our field.

The OP asking about "VST"s - obviously has had a large number of replies assuming he means virtual instrument plugins. But VST is just a plugin format like AU and AAX, and they can be EQs, dynamics, reverbs etc.

VSTi, on the other hand refers to plugin instruments in the VST format, but are usually available in several formats. I prefer to drop "VST" and rather call them VIs, virtual instruments, independent of their formats. Anyway they're all "plugins".

"VST" is just the "Kleenex" of our time.

I hope you don't go around correcting shoppers who ask the store assistant, "Where are the Kleenexes?"

But yes, let's get back to discussing unused "VIs" and not the merits of using a laptop for live performance vs. a workstation keyboard and most definitely NOT ridiculously overpriced men's slim fit wool slacks.

FWIW, if I were still gigging it would be my VAX77 and a laptop, all fitting into a rolling suitcase. I love hardware, but I wouldn't be taking my Minimoog Reissue out- it would be a Boog, but for all intents and purposes a VST would fill in fine.

I have seen folding phones. But who knew there were folding controller keyboards!



Can you place your laptop (or another keyboard or module) on top? It looks a bit curved, and thus like anything on top might fall off.

Infinite Response produced them from 2010-13; they were incredibly well/over-engineered, unfortunately the cost of manufacture pushed the MSRP through the roof. I was an early adopter, having checked out the prototypes at NAMM in 2009; they were the only thing available with polyphonic aftertouch. They came out with a Rev. B. in 2012, I sold my original and upgraded. It was the main MIDI controller in my studio until just recently replaced by a Yamaha Montage M8X. My VAX77 is now on its way to a new owner.

The top is flat, but it is just a bit too shallow for a laptop. But you could place a second tier immediately above it.