Hi,

I'm planning to upgrade my Apollo, but I have two choice, either wait for the TB3 option card for Apollo, or get a different converter with Dante option.

I never physically worked with Dante (just know the theory), so
I want to know if it is a wise choice compared to TB3?
Does it get obsolete anytime soon?
Is there any restriction/draw back?

because in future, I'm planning to have a 16 channel Dante (for mixing) and 2 channel Dante (for mastering) but I don't know if it is a good move to do with Dante?

I just converted my little home studio to RedNet/Dante. Its great.

Dougs, any pros and cons that you want to share?

I also transitioned entirely to Dante in my studio in 2015, connecting two (or more) computers, a digital console and a bunch of analog outboard and ADAT gear by a Dante-enabled 32x32 i/o ad/da-converter which is capable of bridging 32 ADAT i/o and 64 MADI i/o to Dante (Ferrofish A32 Dante). Audio-over-IP won't be obsolete anytime soon. In contrast, many of the younger point-to-point connection formats will soon disappear. Dante relies on long established protocols and can use existing, non-expensive networking infrastructure. A single cat 6 cable can transmit more than 500 audio channels per direction. You can use inexpensive network switches to expand the network anytime. Both routing flexibility and system expandability are dead-easy and virtually unlimited,

The good news is: In a lot of scenarios there's no need to get rid of the current gear to benefit from Dante networking. Plenty of bridging devices exist which can convert ADAT, MADI and other formats into a Dante network, like the Ferrofish VERTO (ADAT or MADI to Dante) or the new PULSE 16 DX (half the A32 Dante, also bridging analog, ADAT and MADI). If your Apollo has ADAT outs, you could just add the VERTO 32 which bridges the Apollo's ADAT outs to Dante and continue using the Apollo as the ad/da converter incl. its real-time fx. You'd need some sort of computer Dante interface (Dante PCIe accelerator card). These cards provide 128 Dante i/o. I'm using a Yamaha AIC128-D Dante card in my Windows computer. Dante latency can be set as low as 0.15 ms in the Dante-enabled devices (individually adjustable per device) and the conventional audio latency (daw) can be set to small values comparable to those of MADI devices.

In this video I'm showing some aspects of how I use Dante in my studio:



In the three years I've been using Dante in my studio and also on location recording I dind't find any drawback and never looked back to the time when I was using the Antelope Orion32 via USB (while its audio quality was fine). Dante is so much more comfortable, flexible and absolutely stable even with very high channels counts (> 150). With about 166 Dante audio channels constantly floating around in the background between my devices for a no. of different reasons (adding up to about 140 mbps of network traffic), my Dante gigabit network is still more or less idling. It's as simple as plug-and-play.

I hope this info makes it easier for you to take a decision.

Sonic Axiom, I understood all the parts except the PCI card. Is that necessary? Also, I use Mac only.

When you are using Dante-enabled equipment you normally also wanna integrate computers into this network. There are two ways to do this. You can either use a software driver called "Dante Virtual Soundcard", provided by Audinate (Australian inventor of Dante; 30,- $), which turns the computer's standard integrated RJ45 NIC/LAN port into a 64 channel i/o audio interface or you can purchase dedicated Dante PCIe form factor cards which provide Dante connectivity. Such a card needs to either be installed into a computer's free PCIe slot (in case of Windows) or into a PCIe-to-TB expansion box available for Mac computers.

Main difference between using the Dante Virtual Soundcard driver and a Dante hardware PCIe card is the higher channel count of the latter (up to 128 channels i/o) and also its significantly lower latency. While DVS has typical latencies of 5~20 ms, Dante hardware devices (and thus a Dante PCIe card also) have typical latencies of 1~5 ms or even less (depending on the specs of the computer). So, if your environment requires very low latencies (for example playing VST instruments live while monitoring them directly) you'd need to use a dedicated Dante PCIe card because you'd get too much latency using DVS. Other real-time audio tasks also require very low latency (like in live scenarios).

If you do not require real-time audio processing or monitoring, you could very well use DVS. Also, if the computer running DVS only has to play back prerecorded audio or is used to simply record without using direct monitoring, DVS is absolutely appropriate, providing the considerable amount of 64 audio i/o's.

This is the Dante PCIe card I'm using: DANTE ACCELERATOR | Interfaces | Products |
Yamaha. The system requirements for Mac are shown in the list. Retail prices are around 1.000,- $. Similar/identical cards are currently available from SSL and Focusrite (RedNet PCIe).

Mounted into my Intel i5 Windows computer (not the most powerful machine on earth) I can set the latency low enough to be able to play VST instruments live incl. a no. of VST fx plugins on top of the intrument. Apart from that, it allows me to route up to 128 audio channels to and from my daw. Those channels originate mainly from my ad/da-converter and a Dante-enabled digital mixing console while the daw's output channels are in turn routed to my SSL Sigma summing engine for mixing and to my analog outboard. As shown in the video, Dante-anabled devices auto-discover themselves within seconds after they have been connected to the network or powerded on and you can route arbitrary channels between any of the devices with a single mouse click.

For live recording tasks, I'm using an Intel i7 laptop (Windows) running Dante Virtual Soundcard which is directly connected to a Focusrite RedNet 4 (8-channel mic/line preamp) and a Dante-enabled Yamaha 01v96 to record up to 24 audio channels via a single cat 6 cable. I'm using a small manageable Cisco 8-port gigabit switch to connect all three devices.

What is your environment like and what requirements do you have? This determins if Dante is suitable for you.

PCI card helps to get more input and output, also you can decrease buffer to get less latency when you record.

On cubase(MAC) I can get 1.8ms input and output latency at 128 buffer, 96kHz. There's no DSP mixer on Dante system so you need to monitor thru DAW.

As already mentioned, "conventional" PCIe, TB or USB interface is necessary for reasonable latency performance with Dante setup. Straight connection to computer Ethernet port and use with DVS (Dante Virtual Soundcard) isn't suitable for low latency situations (although it might be fine for pure recording up to 64 channels, where higher latency doesn't matter, if you use some kind of outboard monitoring).

RME recently announced Digiface Dante USB 3.0 interface, which can help with low latency monitoring mixes and Dante connected outboard devices, because compared to mentioned PCIe cards, it has its own DSP mixer controlled by TotalMix, so it essentially behaves like standard RME interface with Dante gear for I/Os.

Michal

Thanks all of you for your replies.

I explain how I work, then you guys can help me if I’m over shooting (by buying Dante) or it is a right choice because future is heading that way!

I mainly mix and sometimes mix and master the song. I only record single instrument at a time (not a full band, due to my limited space)

I use a lots of VST since the music I worked with is mainly Synth based.

For live shows, I use Presonus to route every channel into Multirack to process audios and back to Presonus. (so something that I can use both in studio and live shows, would be helpful but not necessary)

I don’t work in multi-room commercial studio. It is a single room with many analog hardwares.

Which Apollo and Presonus models are you using right now?

Apollo 16 and Presonus RML16ai

Everything started as I was searching for 2 channel converter for mastering. and Hilo was a good choice, but it has a TB2 (obsolete) or Dante! Then I though maybe get Hilo and combine it with Aurora/Burl which have Dante, and sell my Apollo 16

My needs are different (simpler) then the others who've posted here. I am running the Dante Virtual Sound Card. Instead of monitoring through my DAW I am running the RedNet X2P. This is a 2 in / 2 out unit with a headphone amp and a mix knob.

The mix knob allows you to mix the backing track from the DAW with the analog inputs during tracking for latency free monitoring. This bypasses the need to monitor through the DAW and with it the need for me to run the physical Sound Card.

I also have the RedNet AM2 which is a 2 out Dante enabled monitor controller and headphone amp.

Additionally, I have the Focusrite Red 4Pre which provides 8 analog ins and 8 analog outs, plus a ton of the other IO (including Dante, Thunderbolt, optical, etc.). Although I don't use it this way, this unit allows you to setup latency free monitoring (again bypassing the DAW) by routing monitor mixes and sending them out the 8 analog line outs.

Most of my modest needs are covered by the 2 in and 4 outs (of pro level AD and DA) I get with the X2P and AM2. I picked up the 4Pre (which brings me up to 10 ins / 12 outs) for the rare occasion when I need more IO as it was on sale for $700 below regular price. (BTW its still on sale at Sweetwater until the end of May as that might be a unit for you to look at.)

Why did I move to RedNet/Dante:
1) The units I have are a very affordable way to get top quality AD/DA conversion.
2) The flexibility of Dante (even in my small setup) is a big advantage. I can track and/or monitor from anywhere in the house.
3) I'm on Windows and so getting off the USB "umbilical" was a plus for me.

DougS, my setup is this way (current and future)
DAW (16channel) -> Analog Summing-> Master Bus Processors -> Hilo (wishlist) -> DAW

I usually insert other hardware before summing, and stay in analog domain until the end.

So Dante, can improve my work flow in any way?

Thanks,

Sorry, I'm not Doug

This is similar to what I'm doing: I'm feeding 32 DAW outputs (in fact 16 stereo stems) out via the PCIe Dante card and then to the Ferrofish converter via Dante. The Ferrofish spits out 32 analog channels that are then summed in the SSL Sigma mixer. The Sigma's stereo output is routed through analog outboard gear for analog mastering and the processed stereo mix is finally recorded on a dedicated DAW track. I'm also inserting analog gear into some DAW tracks before mixing.

Main benefit of using Dante is to overcome routing restrictions and to facilitate expandability of the existing setup in the future. These benefits show their full potential if you have several Dante-enabled devices. In your case, it would mean that you'd have to swap the converter and then find a way to get Dante into and out of your Mac. The new RME Digiface Dante may be a nice option do accomplish this, if your Mac provides a USB3 port. The Digiface Dante would be able to deliver direct monitoring through TotalMix. This setup wouldn't been a real audio network but at least you would be able to expand it easily when you desire to do so and you wouldn't run into connectivity issues like TB being abandoned one day. However you'd be depending on a functioning USB 3 port.

SonicAxiom, so chdck this future setup and tell me if it’ll work?

DAW + Sonnet expansion box equiped with Rednet -> Burl/Lynx -> 2-Bus+ -> Analog hardwares -> Hilo -> DAW

Now is there a way to avoid patchbay in Dante domain? so I can insert anything anywhere?
(like what Tegeler Konneltor do!)

I have the Focusrite Red 16 Line + A16R +SSL Nucleus 2 so have the choice of being able to use Dante, TB3 or HDX.

It is great to be able to put Talkback on the Dante network (using the Nucleus 2).
It is great being able to ditch the patchbay and just put things on inserts.

I do maintain some things on a patchbay- for instance, if you want to have a channel strip made up of a separate preamp, compressor and EQ then it makes sense to manually patch them rather than going through 3x stages of A/D/A.

Octatonic, how did you ditched the patchbay? (a an efficient or proper way without harming the signal)
because that’s my intention if I go with Dante option.

I haven't ditched it entirely.
Anything that I use on the front end (preamps, tracking compressors and EQ's) are still on patchbays.

Things that stay on the busses (STC8, 2500, G Bus, Hammer, Nail etc) are on inserts in Pro Tools and I use them like plugins.

I wouldn't ditch the patchbay entirely- imagine you had a preamp on channel 1 and a compressor on 2 and an eq on channel 3.
If you want to chain them then you would have 3x A/D/A stages which would be undesirable.

But anything I want on drum bus or mix bus etc can be left fixed to Dante inputs/outputs and used as an insert.

Hi -
I've just started integrating Dante. My main room is running a Red 8Pre and I have a second room that runs an Apollo 8pre... what would be an efficient way to get the audio from the Apollo console into the Dante network for live recording from this room to the main room? (that doesn't involve replacing the Apollo with a red device . Would the Ferrofish V32 do the trick as mentioned in an earlier post by using the ADAT outs on the Apollo? I basically don't care about the computer in that room for now, just want to route the mic pre signals. I assume using some combo of the Apollo Virtual outputs and Dante virtual sound card would likely mean too much latency for live recording (if that would even work). The ferrofish would show up in my master RedNet Control 2 app for routing once connected to the network? Thanks much for any insight!

Easiest way to connect both devices is to connect the Apollo 8pre's ADAT outputs to the Red 8pre (16 channels max. @ 1x sample rate). Once inside the Red 8pre you can route those signals via Dante or any other of its output connectors. Using Dante, you will need at least another Dante-enabled device, a computer running Dante Virtual Soundcard (up to 64 i/o @ fairly high latency) or a computer fitted with a PCIe Dante accelerator card (128 i/o @ very low latency). Not sure what the benefit of using Dante would be, given your current setup.

Alternatively, you can hook up a Ferrofish Verto32 to the ADAT ports of the Apollo to have its 16 ADAT output channels bridged to Dante. In this case, a single cat 6A cable between the Verto and the Red 8pre would be enough. This might be beneficial if the distance between the Verto and the Red 8pre is longer than an ADAT connection can handle. Network cables used for Dante can be up to 75 m long and carry hundreds of bi-directional channels.

A Ferrofish PULSE16 DX or an A32 Dante would render the Apollo obsolete as they are analog-to-Dante converters. Using them only for ADAT-to-Dante bridging is overkill.

You should explain in more detail what your setup is and what benefits you are aiming for. Dante is beneficial if you have to route between multiple devices, locations and computers, possibly involving long distances and high channel counts or if you wanna render your setup easily expandable in the future by integrating more networkable devices or computers.

Thank you for the reply! Apologies if that wasn't clear, the two rooms (one with red 8pre and the other with the Apollo) are on opposite sides of the building, maybe 85 feet or so... I can get network cable over there after a jump or two from a switch or two but probably not anything else. Seems like the Verto32 might be the answer, yes? The remote room with the Apollo houses some large acoustic instruments that I'd like to record from the main room.

Main room = Red 8Pre
Remote room = Apollo 8pre

I also have an AM2 headphone box, which I guess I can use to send a mix to monitor in the remote room for the musician?

just getting my feet wet! Thanks so much for the info.

I guess for monitoring playback, I can also send the audio via the Verto32 to the ADAT ins of the Apollo coming into the Apollo console to monitor with the Apollo's head phone amp, correct?

Thanks for the details. Yes, at this distance, the Verto32 is a good choice. At 1x sample rate you could transfer 16 bi-directional channels. Monitoring could be provided using the cat 6A -> Verto32 -> ADAT -> Apollo -> analog outs or via the AM2. In the latter case, you'd have to add a network switch to split ethernet between the Verto and the AM2 (not sure if the Verto's secondary Dante port can be configured to act like a switch).

The Verto would enable you to add 16 more tracking channels by connecting another ADAT-equipped converter in the future.

Fantastic, thank you!!

you're most welcome!

And do I use Dante Controller software to mange the routing? Or can everything be done in the rednet control software? Thx!

yes, Dante Controller manages the Dante routing between devices. For the internal signal routing of some devices like the Red 8pre's assignment of its available ins and outs to its Dante ins/outs, you have to use the 8pre's own control software. As far as I remember, its config panel is only accessible via its thunderbolt connection. This may have changed in the meantime, though.

RedNet Control software is intended to remote control Focusrite devices only. While it can also change a few basic settings of other devices (like the sample rate), this is better done either in Dante Controller or in the menu on the respective device.

??? thanks!

integrating the Verto32 into your setup as a Dante bridging device won't create a "real" Dante network since it's only replacing an ADAT point-to-point connection (not possible due to distance between devices) by an ethernet point-to-point connection. This is probably the best way to go. However, once set up, you don't have to do anything else. The real Dante audio networking fun starts when you are connecting more than just two devices via Dante that occasionally require changing routings. This is when it starts to reveal a little more of its enormous potential.

I do love the idea of getting an H9000 or a large Dante enabled io box to patch pedals and other processors into and then use the Dante Network as a patchbay. that's sort of one major interesting use case yeah?