Wow, that is quite a unique position!

From a financial standpoint, I'm not sure I'd go with either, to be honest. But you have to do what you're passionate about; if you're unsure, perhaps it's too soon to consider a business. You might be on good terms with your prospective Father-in-law now, but I'd personally be a little reticent to start a business despite his apparent readiness with the chequebook. I'd be inclined to give it a little more time after the wedding. Once everything's settled, then by all means consider moving forward with his kind offer.

IMHO go with what you are most comfortable with. It is possible to setup a studio for mastering even though you are setup for recording. THe more you can provide, the better your marketability will be. Many studios have smaller mastering/editing suites for the very thing you discuss. I work with A LOT of studios, even helped "build them" so to speak starting out from just a local demo studio to building out full facilities and thensome---but the one constant to do this right is---DO WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU. Don't build something to be different, it still comes down to what is best for your way of doing business. I know, so simple---but often forgotten!

As far as budget....again, get what you need. If you want to make this a successful business you can NOT cut corners, you must do it right. I know, that's simple too---but very hard. When I built my first house back in 2002 I decided to not have a basement put in and didn't expand the size of the garage. These were two things that haunted me later both when I started a family 4-years later and building a studio. Now that I have a new home (this one was already built) I made sure to get everything I wanted LONG term---no basement but not needed now. However the garage is PERFECT for building out a new studio, which this time I'm going to really do it up to look amazing. Do it once, Do it right, Do it long-term. When opening up a new facility, it's got to look and sound great----but also offer the clients value. IF you open up with a bang, word gets around.....if you open up sour grapes, well that does too. Actually, that spreads like wildfire.

I couldn't possibly disagree with Brad more. The last thing you (or this world) needs is a recording-slash-mastering room.

I've been a studio owner and manager - ran a 3 room recording facility which included a mastering room, before I split that off, sold my interest and worked in a partners room. Altogether I've been doing audio for for ages, specializing in mastering for the past 15 but doing it on/off for 20. Over that time I've attempted what Brad is suggesting at least 4 times. I've failed 4 times. Most recently I was working for someone else as a sound designer, and they just wanted to glom onto some piece of my former mastering client's budgets by trying to retrofit my very nice mix room for mastering - total disaster! I left the company within a year of that experiment. This was in a professionally designed, fully treated room, built for sound. Great mix room, terrible mastering room, even after we removed the giant reflector/resonator (aka "mixing console" and desk) in front, and added killer Lipinski mastering monitors, tweaky amps etc. At it's best this room was never half as revealing as either of my earlier dedicated mastering rooms. That means everything either took twice as long to do. Rarely fun.

I suppose basements and garages are ok for recording your band or cutting your teeth. If you've got budget, you can treat any space and use it creatively in recording - that's half the fun, right? But mastering's a whole different animal, and not something you can just "do on the side" in a mix room. I realize there are tons of folks with a high-limit credit card doing just that. Some will surely flame me here. But it's generally bad advice, and in the big scheme of things, how many half-assed mastering rooms and wannabe ME's does the world really need?

And where are you going to compromise what? No budget is unlimited, and the gear doesn't crossover as much as you might think, or manufacturers like Avid and Mackie (or for that matter SSL) might have you believe. So you're going to need racks full of both kinds of gear, and definitely will need a couple different types of speakers, as I'd never like to mix on my Dunlavys (back in the Lipinski room I had Mackie and Tannoys for mix/record in different positions - mastering speakers are too brutal, and can chew through time as you chase less-pain, more-comfort).

I digress... the room is the real issue. Layout, quantity and nature of gear required, and treatments are different for recording/mixing and mastering. You don't need/want racks of outboard, and definitely avoid patchbays in mastering. You don't want a big flat resonant surface tossing first reflections into your ears in mastering. For mastering you don't want a dead room, but it can't be live either - it has to be reminiscent of a real world environment in feel. Near field monitors are inherently deceiving in a mastering context - limitations of the box and the normal positioning of NFMs are wrong for the job. The fact that many small studios are doing it speaks volumes about what's happened to the industry over the past decade - desperate times bring desperate measures. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I've been there, done that. It's really bad advice. It's also one of the easiest things to talk yourself into, then after the fact, rationalize your bad choices to your vict...err... clients to pay for it all.

OTOH it's not hard or expensive these days to set up an EXCELLENT room for one or the other job. I'd encourage you to follow your passions. Invest in what you love, then partner with someone whose made a complimentary investment in the other direction. By supporting their investment with a share of your billables, you'll make that room better (whether it's the record/mix or mastering). By developing that relationship and becoming part of a community, you'll drive more work to your dedicated facility. Best of all, neither you nor your clients will be expected to compromise quality or convenience chasing false dreams and tolerating janky rigs. You'll have the best of both worlds, optimized for what you're doing right now.

Dave,

To be clear I wasn't stating ONE room to do both---but a secondary room for mastering.

I would consider doing neither.

Unless you are already an established engineer or producer, or are working with a team of such people, there is a very high likelihood that the business is not going to be successful. The last thing you want to look like is a loser to your in laws.

That comes across a bit ruder in type than I intended, and I mean it in a purely factual way, so I apologize for that.

I would either: A> get more experience, or B> get a job C> think of another business to get into

and as a distant D, if you must take this risk> I would consider finding someone with more experience to team up with, you provide the money, they provide the know how.

Matt

Oh I thought of another option for my list

I know a guy with a similar garage of cars that bought an established high end studio and had an experienced friend run that. It is still struggling (as are most studios these days) but keeping its head above water, mostly thanks to the good management by said friend. They didn't buy any new equipment to speak of.

So thats another idea, buy an existing established studio, but you will have to be VERY on to it, and experienced at running a business to even have a chance in hell at making it work. If it goes down it'll probably take a couple of ferraris with it.

Matt

Ahh... that makes more sense! In that case it's just a budget question. Assuming that's in the plan, sure.

That said, one engineer, two rooms makes for a pretty big monthly nut and a tough business plan to float realistically. I've found 2 big obstacles:
- mastering customers mostly flow through engineers, who might be reticent to point their clients to a competitor in a position to go after mixing and recording work. Mix engineers generally refer to non-competitive MEs.
- it's disingenuous and delusional for most engineers to master their own work, even in a different room. It can be done, but is rarely a good thing for inexperienced engineers to dabble in... as the ad says, it's like giving yourself a haircut.

Without referrals, and without a stream of one's own work, how does one pay for the mastering room and gear? Also does it help one's reputation professionally to glom onto every penny of a project's budget, and make choices that are generally self-centered?

I know a couple folks who "do it all". For whatever reason, that work rarely wins awards, or does well critically or commercially, even though it's well funded and very professionally presented.

Maybe music is inherently collaborative and social after all? It seems to me that the best music is most often made by creative teams, tightly engaged in collaborative efforts. Symphonies are great when orchestra and conductor channel the composer's vision. Abbey Road was a community as much as a facility, bringing more than rooms and gear to the table. Scenes from NYC to SF to Nashville shape sounds, and harvest ideas. Even Moby's solo genius-turn, Play, corresponded directly with samples of legacy recordings; absent those classic sources are there hits?

Then I would go with recording.

This may seem like a silly question, but which (recording/mixing or mastering) actually has enough demand in that area to keep a business afloat? You are coming into this situation without an established client base and without a local reputation.

There are very few companies that end up successful if there is not a clear demand for the good or service. For instance, while Apple in many cases eschews using focus groups and market research, their goal is to create a product and then show that there is an unrealized demand within the marketplace (think iPod/iTunes), but they have the financial backing to work on multiple ideas and then select the one or two that the company feels has the most real application and potential for success. For every product launch, there are dozens (or even hundreds) of ideas that never move out of the initial design phase as the company doesn't see the unmet need that the product will address.

If there is no demand for a new mastering studio or recording facility in that area, then you had better have some differentiating factor that will set you apart from the others in the area to create a new demand.

While I am far from an expert in running either a recording or mastering facility (my experience is on the investor and entrepreneurial side), the simple truth is that you may want to think long and hard before spending a briefcase full of someone else's money unless you can realistically earn a return. I would also suggest that you set up a repayment plan. There is no such thing as a free lunch...

P.S. All that said, if after a lot of thought and research and planning, you feel that you can honestly and realistically make a go of it, then go for it!

Want to be my angel investor? We'll build an awesome studio out here in Ohio and you just sit at home and collect a percentage for being awesome! I can even teach you the trade and you can work your way up to 2nd engineer!

IMO, mastering is currently more future proof as far as making money in the recording arts go as it's more specialized, needs better and more accurate (expensive) equipment/rooms/speakers, and it takes a long time to learn about all of the technical processes and to develop a workflow that works. That doesn't even begin to touch on the actual creative skills you need to develop to do the job.

Future proof because even the best home studios will still need that final quality check.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that the average studio, build and run by professionals, has a life span of only a few months before it tanks. In this DIY world, spending any money on such a business is pretty much guaranteed to be lost forever, especially if you're just learning.

Are you sure this is the business you want? I know I'd probably do the same thing as you, but it's just something to consider.

That's an awfully sweeping statement to make that has absolutely nothing to do with fact.

I'd take a real hard look at the number and type of mastering studios already here in Seattle. You'll already find a range of established studios and mastering services in the area, from the real high-end to the smaller craigslist guys. If you want to jump into the pool and join the crowd, you're going to need make sure you have a plan that sets you apart from the competition. Especially since it sounds like you don't already have a client list that will follow you into the new business.

Protip: Quality vinyl transfers are steady business that fills up time between mastering sessions!

@ the OP: I hope you're an incredible engineer. I've heard better records made on 4 track tape machines than some made in half a million dollar PTHD studios and that is a 100% truth that I have several examples of handy. If you're planning to open a quality facility you had better be able to produce quality output right away on a consistent basis. The first time you make a bad sounding record it all starts to fall apart.

So, if you're just a so-so engineer I'd seriously start shopping for talent. You can get better with time but you want your business to be associated with quality right away.

Oh man...so much is wrong with this proposition...lol! I'm sorry, but you did post this on a public forum for advice so here's my two cents. Please keep in mind to take me with a grain of salt and also remember that I have no incentive here to steer you wrong. I'm looking out for you as a fellow audio lover and I have absolutely nothing to gain by saying this all. First off...do you truly love the girl? I ask this up front because I have known MANY dudes who have gotten themselves into the same exact situation. If you're going to solidify this relationship with her based upon financial gain...it will inevitably fail you. You'll be miserable, she'll be miserable, kids can get dragged into the mix, her parents will be out for your blood after they fork up this kind of cash, and you'll lose the business you open. If you truly do love her and decide to proceed with the offering, know that audio based businesses these days are suffering...badly...all of them. And the whole DIY ProTools mentality that runs rampant these days is proof that the death of our business is not far away sadly. As much as it sucks to say this...the world needs less recording/mastering houses...not more of them unfortunately. I'm not recommending you stop learning (which you admit you have more to do of) and I'm not saying you should stop freelancing or doing work out of a small personal rig. But to open up a huge house in this economy I think you would regret. Take the cash, open up a successful business more folks can benefit from (something more general like an auto garage that fixes imports or something), make a ton of cash, then live comfortably in a beautiful home with a beautiful wife surrounded with top notch audio gear in a private mastering suite in your home that shits on most mastering houses these days. My two cents...sad...but true...

So true I have to say it twice. There will always be room for QUALITY recording studios with clever engineers. Always.

I very much appreciate all the responses and welcome any further ones. This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for.

@csl - I'll be the first to admit that I am ill-prepared at present; as I said, this coming to fruition would be several years down the road. Your site has a classy look about it. thumbsup

@Brad Lyons - I definitely agree with the second half of your post. Excellent advice. Regarding the first... My mentor has run a fairly successful studio for about ten years here and he has done recording, mixing and mastering. It can definitely work.. he has so much work that it's stressful to make deadlines, honestly. (He knows this is a good thing.)

From my experience and after many a conversation with musicians I've worked with... It seems that having an "all-in-one" type of studio tends to often give the initial impression that you're not really all that great at mastering, being it's own very delicate and difficult beast. Of course the product speaks for itself, but first impressions are what they are. Not to say you can't run a recording studio and master as well. Hell, with my ~$25k overall operation (mics, pre's, room, everything) I've "mastered" hundreds of recordings. " " . I suppose it all comes down to where the market is, but if I want mastering work around here I'd be hesitant to claim to do anything but that.

@Dave Davis - Your post is really enlightening. Things should be specialized for what they are from the start. Actually coincides with the second half of Brad's post. Can you clarify what you meant by "you're going to need racks full of both kinds of gear" ..the next paragraph you said "You don't need/want racks of outboard, and definitely avoid patchbays in mastering."

I understand about the patchbays and I know that you know what you meant; just want to be clear. Making connections and being part of the community is key, to be sure. The partnering idea is one that I won't forget.

@matt thomas - First off, there's no need to apologize. We're all adults here and every concrete view only furthers my situation and resolve. I really appreciate your honesty and that is what I come here looking for.

Reading back over my post, I easily come across like some stupid kid who knows next to nothing about audio or hard work and wants to just cash in on Willy Wonka's golden ticket.

I have made a living from my day job for years and have spent my evenings being the sound guy at divebars, playing gigs for beer and dinner, recording bands for free to make connections for other people, playing on the street with a friend so he could eat...etc...have had some lucrative gigs as well--- just saying I've paid my dues down in the shit too.

In the process I have made a fair amount of connections and despite the economy, there is actually quite a lot of audio work to be had around here. In response:

A> I make it a point to get more experience every day... This morning that means talking to you guys.

B> Have one. It's four 12's though, so my plan is to keep it and start a studio in my off-time until (hopefully!) I can run it full-time. (you may have meant a studio job, but those are awfully hard to come by these days.)

C> Not Applicable.

D> Certainly a good idea. I've known from the beginning I'm not even close to being able to do this on my own.

I'll of course agree with you that I don't want to be a failure to my in-laws... (especially with their money.) That is why I'm asking these kinds of questions.

I seriously hope the majority of people listen to your advice, because I'm sure you're right.

Can't stop though man.


@Nolan Walker - You said I am coming into this without an established client base or reputation, but I didn't give a full narrative of my situation by any means. It takes so long to say anything.... I was trying to be somewhat succinct. I do have connections with many musicians and several studios here, though not tons of them. I am originally from Alaska and definitely have a gem in that market, as bands there love to have a studio name in their liner notes from somewhere else, and I know just about everyone doing professional audio in Anchorage, including the gear retailers and their employees. I am also there several times a year for business.

You're absolutely right that there needs to be a demand for a business/product or else creating one is downright idiotic and foolish. As far as the free lunch....I'm no stranger to fearful sentiments of pissing away my in-laws money. ....thank you for the reminder though. Never hurts.

@trmchenry - I like that idea. Ohio is one of the only states I've yet to see.

The rest that you said has been my take on it. I've known that I would need more experienced talent than myself involved in this, but mastering does seem to hold a level of respect that recording has lost of late.

@Tarekith - Like so many of these, you're absolutely right. As I said above, I do have a client base to a fair extent but Seattle is by no means an untapped market and I very much appreciate your input as someone who lives here. If you have anything else to contribute I couldn't thank you enough for it.

Any opinions I have are what they are guys; I don't claim to be an expert and I am here asking for your advice for that reason. There are more responses that I need to reply to but I'm late for work and will do so later. Thank you all so much for your time and wisdom.

@strdsk -

Honestly, your notion sounds pretty damn good to me and it has more than crossed my mind.

I've always loved helping musicians and being involved with this beautiful thing we all love here. I suppose I've felt lately that I might be in a position to carry the torch, so to speak. I at least want to explore every possible way of doing so before going another route.

Just really concerns me where music is going if even those with the most fortunate of circumstances don't try to break new ground.

I would never allow my career to be dependent on my relationship with her or with her parents. The music business is way too violent of an economic roller coaster for that especially these days.

Today's entertainment business is all about personal relationships with clients as opposed to relationships with facilities. It is not at all uncommon to have clients require one to travel or even relocate.

I meant that it's prohibitively expensive to have TWO piles of gear, especially when it must reside in different rooms, and one of those rooms is inherently allergic to patchbays (between the extra cable, connectors and patch cord you can see very significant degradation in signals - running them between rooms will make this worse).

From a marketing perspective, you'll "need" some outboard for each activity. In mastering, the price forces a degree of focus on quality and attention, alongside the maintenance and calibration any outboard might require. So you tend to buy a few great, flexible pieces that meet critical needs, and build from there.

You're faced with very different requirements and demands in both areas, with little crossover possible or desirable. Combine this with Brad's clarified point (need an additional room build-out) and you have added a lot of cost, but not necessarily increased your income much.

seattle needs a disc cutting studio... the only one just left.

set that up and i'll shoot all my vinyl business to you! :D

but please only hire a good cutting engineer.

In your position i would build the best mastering studio in the world

but wait a second . . where is engineer? lol

Is this a trick question?

Why not use this opportunity to create a business that actually brings in some money, in other words, totally unrelated to the music business and then do the audio thing on the side, since you're saying you still need a lot to learn about audio engineering, in one of the wings of the mansion your pops-in-law is certainly going to give you two after the wedding?

Reason why I say this is because bottom line, if your wife's father is willing to invest in you to start a business that will eventually sustain your wife and children, I don't know man, but I'd be considering a business that generates more money than audio engineering, especially when you have no experience in an industry where many professionals are leaving the commercial 9-5 setting, and doing it from their homes.

I'd personally look into Franchising. When you have a ton of money, this is an option where you can invest the money and almost let the franchises run themselves (since you're constantly guided by the corporate entity).

Old joke about the studio owner who suddenly won a million in the lottery:

When asked "what are you gonna do now?" he replied:

"Oh just keep running the studio till the money plays out".

What! give up show bizness?

Cheers, JT

If money is no object....just buy out someone else's studio that they have already done all the hard work for.

Now you have all the work done for you and none the wiser.

Get in to audio sampling, a sample pack online distribution company just sold to Beatport, not sure exactly how much but definitely over a million. That's where the money is, not mastering! Sell your samples, when your earning enough from them set up a small studio and get a few interns, open the studio up as a commercial project as well as for internally producing samples and grow the business and your rep. 15 years down the line sell the samples company for a few mill, invest it in the studio, record the next Michael jackson and buy your girlfriends dads mansion. Bam! Live the dream.

do both imo. Recording studio with a mastering suite

Hook up with John at Panic, you do recording, let him do the mastering.

equipementtalk shurely can be fun , but clients dont pay for your equipmentlist.
they dont care bout your comps , limiters , daw`s , ad/da.....
they pay you if they got the feeling they can trust....
it`s all about the man behind
it`s all about YOU.

example : there was this guy doing engineering. his father had lots of money , paid him house , paid him well equiped studio.
he never came into good reputation becouse of his personality.
he failed.

the questions are :

1- are you already a nice , reliable ,established and reputated sound guy in your local area , are you known as THE guy doing good jobs on sound ?
do people already prefere you to others?
are people happy if you work on their sound ?

2- are you conscious , self reflecting and present ?

3- do you love that girl ?

if you can answer these 3 little questions with yes , go for it.

love, light, sound and mohnkronen too you outta the audiobomber`s headquarter