Digidesign Icon vs. SSL Duality!

It's on!

Also:

Hmmmm? Should I make the Duality the front/back end for another PTHD system, or let it be the 'silver spoon in the mouth' for a large scale Logic Pro/Maestro/Symphony system?



Rob G..

Oh man, do you enjoy total carnage?heh

I mean, that's like throwing a Poodle in with a Pitbowl


It'll be fun to watch the response though... there just isn't any comparison.

I just wish SSL could pull off something similair but with about half the channels and price...I know, I know, NOT the AW9000 (and we can't have something or nothing). The "Duality" but with 24 channels or 32 channels would be nice though.

I love that they are making the board, but with the big studios going bye bye, they have to meet use somewhere a bit closer to "home." Pun intended!

-andrews

DIRTY HALO www.dirtyhalo.com

How much is it? You could get a 24-channel HUI (that's all you're getting), and an old SSL for that. And that's how much per channel? That thing had better mix your records, cook breakfast, and clean the toilets for that...

If it's hands-down, unequivocally the best sounding console ever made, I take it all back.

Yeah, me too. And the odds are...?

-a

Console with a control surface built in vs. a control surface.

300k entry vs. 80k.

Lots of differences. If you want to work in pro tools hit a button and mix on an analog console then the Dualityis the heat. If you want to do itb mixing then the Icon is a better deal and all you need. It is not a who's better thing, they serve some of the same fuctions but come from a totally different mentality.

Word is it's just that, and considering the price tag it will knock the bottom out of residual values on the existing 9000 series consoles that are currently installed around the world. New rooms outfitting with the duality will be able to operate more efficiently for less money, and outshine the big boys at a fraction of the entry price. I smell more death for overinflated commercial studios. The mid level facility is going to win big if set up properly.

Just to make a little reality check....

SSL sold 2000 E's and G's, 200 J's, and 50 K's.
I hear they have already crossed 200 with the AWS.

The market shrunk on them. They are adapting to the change and that is great!

They can no longer support the E's and G's because the parts are so expensive. Did those parts go up in price? No. SSL cannot justify the cost of a switch that is $15 if they buy 5000 per order and $35 if you only buy 200 per order. The E's and G's were built so well because they had lots of orders and were able to buy more expensive parts since they were buying in huge bulk orders. When designing new consoles they have to figure the new "smaller" market in all parts costs. So, overall, I would bet my house that there is a lot less of the tip-top highest of quality parts. But that is OK. They are trying to compete in today's market. Its a different world. I am sure they still make it AMAZING and WAY BEYOND OVER BUILT, but that is a consideration. Duality is a great console/control surface for most pro needs of today. It is sturdy, it won't go down, it doesn't throw off the heat like older SSL's, there are less internal parts, no external power supply, etc. so it is a much better design in many respects. In many ways it is far better than E's, G's, J's, and K's. But those older boards have their purpose, charm and sound. So, they all rock. Just my thoughts.

Over time probably the biggest advantage of the Duality over older SSL's is the power consumtion.

Word has it that it's supposed to be a LOT lower.

Comparing an Icon to an analog console comes down to one question, do you need a controller for ITB mixing or an analog console for OTB mixing ?

The Duality is a console with an actual analog audio path and processing, so it's really a completely different animal from the Icon which has been compared to a huge mouse.

there is no way you can compare the tight integration of an ICON to Pro Tools with HUI. they are light years appart. DIGI does not allow that level of integration outside its own product line.

no, whether or not that is what you NEED is a different matter. you have to decide if you want mixing ease and automation and plug-in control over PT, or, some degree of that and a 'sound'. and the prices are not in the same league....

you may also want to look at what Euphonix is doing.

Your marketing and prediction expertise aside, could you please point me to a place where I can read about (or better yet hear someone say) that this is:
"hands-down, unequivocally the best sounding console ever made".

Comparing both of them is as ridiculous as it is unfair ... to either one. Like comparing a boat to an airplane. Both can travel distances ... And both can be sofisticated and top notch high end blah blah bells and whistles luxuary whatever ...

They're 2 different things.

Seems like alot of people think that theses two consoles are two different animals. But, in a sense they're not. As an engineer, producer, or client you come in to a room, & you want to capture, & manipulate sound the way you want it to be arranged. Both of these consoles does just that. They're control worksurfaces. Granted one has analogue guts. Also both consoles have the potential to give studios, or clients that 'wow' effect.

I think also that if the 'Duality' is 'Super Analogue' like all of the previous versions of the SSL 9000's then the console in the analogue realm will be spectacular. Possibly even more so due to the fact that there is less circuitry.

Icon = Pure Robot

Duality = Cyborg(Half human flesh, & Half machine)

Xl9000K = All Human


This is if you want to compare Human to being analogue, & Robot/Machine to being digital.



Thresholdstike

I agree with Chris. Apples and Oranges.

One passes audio, one does not. One controls the hell out of a DAW, one does not.

BOTH impress clients.

One heats up a room, one does not.

One is a full production system (rec, edit, mix), one is a mixer (no recorder/editor).

I'm sure the electricity requirements of the SSL, though not like a full size console, excede those of the ICON.

Apples and Oranges my friends.

If the Icon, & Duality are 'apples, & oranges'I.E.: 'two different things' then tell me why will they both be competing for the 'exact' same real estate in control rooms around the world? Agreed different in some respects but, then again not different in other respects. It's all about the 'real estate', & what you control things with from the precious 'sweet spot'. Go figure.


Threshold.stike

P.S.:Dont' be surprised when you see some Icons replaced by Dualitys, & visa versa. Maybe then you'll get my point.

Who knows how it sounds? They announced it like 28 hours ago

It's strong point is in its name. DUALITY.

DUAL. Console and Control Surface all in one. If that is waht you desire, then it rocks!

Would you rather have a 72 channel G+ and an ICON which would be about 150k less than a 72 Channel Duality? Personally, I would

It's probably a safe estimate to surmise that SSL has taken orders for at least 10 to 20 of these 'Duality' consoles. At 1/3rd to 1/2 of what an XL9000K would cost with the additional depth of DAW control not only will the high-end studios eat these things up but the mid-level to deep pockets private/project studios will jump on this as well.

Of course the Icon is going to continue to sell well. I don't think the market for the Icon has been saturated yet. But, then look how long the Icon has been available for sale. If I had a high-end facility I'd have an 'Icon' room(For those All Inclusive/Exclusive Pro Tools|HD folks), A 'Duality' room(For the Hybrid folks), & a 'XL9000K' (For the last of the Mohicans big pocket analogue stalwarts) room. Those three rooms would keep me booked looking at what's available, & in demand right now. Ten years ago I'd have put a Neve VXS in one room, & a 9000J one a piece in the other two rooms. Wow have things changed.

Threshold.stike

All,

Need to see how well session data can be transfered across the SSL line from console to console AWS900+ to XL9000K to Duality.

Rob G..

84K,

The desk is 'Super Analogue' just like the original SSL 9000J's, XL9000K's, & AWS900/900+'s. SSL has been consistent with keeping the quality of the 'Super Analogue' stream of consoles top notch. No back paddling here. Wait till you hear the reviews. You'll be impressed.

Rob G..

This is no contest whatsoever.
Icon is as today as you can get, and Duality is so yesterday.
Icon-hit, Duality-miss

Responses/opinions. Good. Some mild mannered. Some staunch/outspoken. Just what I wanted to hear. Thanks for those given so far no matter which way the pendulum swings. The floor is open for others.

Rob G..

I am sure it is AMAZING! I am not doubting that it will be a great addition to many great rooms.

That is not my point. I wonder how it will interface with different studio configurations with different goals. I also wonder about the guarantee for Pro Tools support? What if Digi drops the HUI profile? Does SSL have an agreement with Digi?

I think that if Digidesign dropped HUI support they'd get an abundance of protest due to the fact that an abundance or Pro Tools users use devices that work via HUI. I think the Duality is going to be a success. From feedback it was one of the 'major' hits of the 121st AES show if not the 'star' of the show. But, that's debatable.

Also I would'nt focus so much just on Pro Tools support. Logic Pro/Symphony/Apogee are getting 'alot' of attention. And, I mean 'alot'. Logic Pro, & Nuendo are trying to breath down Pro Tools neck. Granted it would be a monumental task to displace Digidesign from their current seat of power. But, as innovative as Apple is Digidesign better stay on top of their game.

Rob G..

Yeah, Digidesign better make a move, & swiftly. Especially before the Dual Quad Core Mac's come out. That Apple/Apogee partnership is breaking some new ground. Now only if Apple could make Logic Pro's user interface/commands as intuitive for recording/editing/mixing as Pro Tools. But, thats asking for a miracle. For now lets be happy with the newborn(The Duality).

Thresold.stike

P.S.:Be watching for some high profile client orders on the Duality.

mixerguy,

Well it's not like the Icon will be sitting where an SSL4000 used to sit, & the Duality will be stuffed away in some tidy machine room. They both would occupy the same space in the control room. Let's make a list of similarities.

1-They both will have monitors placed on top of them.
2-They both will be installed in the same space in a control room.
3-They both can control Pro Tools
4-They both have an abundance of knobs relativly configured to perform similar purposes
5-They both control channel EQ
6-They both control channel dynamics
7-They both are relativly shaped the same
8-They both give control rooms the 'wow' factor
9-They both can control machines
10-They both can control sequencers
11-They both can control MIDI events
12-They both have control room/mini monitor control sections
13-They both have the same relative amount of track metering
14-They both can handle 5.1
15-They both have relativly the same amount of faders
16-They both have fade/mute automation
17-They both are considered 'large scale/format' consoles(the Duality will probably be nominated into the same 'Large Format' console TEC award category for 2007 as the Icon was for 2005).

And, so on, & so forth(I can go up past 100 if I had the time to do it) etc,......

Do you jayfrigo, C. Lambrects, & others get my point yet? Agreed they're not 'exactly' the same. But, they fulfill the same function in many many ways.

Threshold.stike


P.S.: And, you know that if you see these two consoles in pictures of 'Mix' magazine, 'SOS', 'Resolution', & etc. they'll both be pictured/placed in the same section of all featured control rooms. Put down the magnifying glass, & check out the big picture once in a while.

84K


"I wonder how it will interface with different studio configurations with different goals."


-84K



Probably much easier than would be an Icon. The Duality is a Hybrid. Works analog, & digital. Duality is also much more flexible being that it works Nuendo, Cubase, Logic Pro, Sonar, Digital Performer, & Pro Tools. Don't get me wrong. I 'like' the Icon. Best controller of Pro Tools so far but, anybody that's got their eyes on the next 5 years of audio has also got to take into consideration that Digidesign might not remain king of the audio realm much longer.

Apple has gotten slick. They start you off by more deeply penetrating the computer market. Laptops, desktops, servers, & all. Garageband is installed on just about everything for the consumer. Once you want to go semi-pro there is Logic Logic Express. When you graduate to being pro then there is Logic Pro. The Apogee/Apple alliance was an extremely 'crafty' move for Apogee, & Apple to make. A Mac Pro already out powers a Pro Tools HD system with a 6 slot expansion chassis. And this with only a Dual Two Core processing set up. Dual Quad Core processing is only 12 months down the road.

Pro Tools is in dire trouble. The price point for processing is strongly against Pro Tools HD. Digidesign is going to have to perform a miracle to stop this train that coming down the tracks. Go figure.

Thresholdstike

P.S.:If I had to have a 'high-end' console to control DAW's, & I had my eyes researching current technology, & what's going to be available in the future but still retain analogue clients my hand would be forced to get an SSL Duality. It's a controller for practically everything(all DAW software that's of some degree of 'high-end', or 'pro' notariety).

As soon as the Duality hit AES, I KNEW we were gonna have another one of those 'ICON vs Duality' threads.... seeing that the previous AWS vs ICON threads didn't go anywhere, I don't see how this thread will either --- It's the same discussion all over again!!! heh heh

Oh well..... Anyways, to the topic at hand: I heard of the Duality a few months ago and was considering whether to sell my AWS900 and get this one. I still might... thinking about it pretty hard. I do know that *IF* the Duality could control PT via ethernet, I'll put in my order right now.

Would be nice to see some more info on it. Anyone know the dimensions of it? I mean for the 48 channel one?

And, oh yeah, wouldn't have it been cooler if the name had numbers in it like their previous offerings instead of going the "Amek route" with naming consoles?

Heya Threshold

One is a console that audio passes thru (that can also serve as a control surface). One is a control surface. To me, that is the big picture.