I agree w/r/t the Result6s. If you can give one up for a month (given you seem to be mostly mixing on the SCM25As?), hit up either Amir at ASR or Erin at Erin's Audio Corner, both of them have Klippel NFS test rigs.

As for hi-fi vs studio speakers, Stereophile's got some measurements of the old IB1S 3-ways.

Thanks, guys. Yeah, in my research I did find that many of the speakers I was interested in (PMC Result 6, ATC SCM20ASL) didn't seem to have been measured by the ASR type third party sites, and in their forums, folks tended to lump all the speakers under a brand in with whichever model had been tested (for PMC and ATC it was their consumer line I think).

Anyways, first impressions are just that, but in direct comparison, the PMC's really did feel more hyped in the bass/treble and scooped in the mids. Not in a bad way though - things still felt balanced, it just brought different details out in the mix, and, for me, felt like I got more of a sense of how the whole mix was working together, whereas with the ATC's I zero in on the details but am still learning how balances translate. As an example, I had my girlfriend listen in the sweetspot and switch between both without knowing which was which. She preferred the sound of the PMC's and said they sounded like the mix elements were more "separated". My guess is she liked the more obvious bass presentation and the crisp highs, and that it was a more familiar, pleasing presentation than the ATC's to her. She does NOT have a trained ear and often shrugs when I ask her to listen for small changes or comparisons like different preamps etc.

All of these impressions are subject to change as I get more hours on them though. The PMC's seem to offer up a mix balance reference that is more familiar to hi-fi and consumer playback systems but still has detail and depth, which I could see being damned useful. Another way to put it - the ATC's show me what I need to fix til the very end (and even then, has me thinking "still needs work, should I try to make that even better?", while the PMC's might show me what my mix would sound like on consumer playback devices.


Again, my mind starts thinking that they would contrast to the ATC's very nicely, actually - do the heavy lifting on the ATC's, and switch to the PMC's for refining balance and giving me a shot of confidence like "hey this actually sounds really nice after all". Haven't had a chance to run a mix from scratch on the PMC's, which really is the ultimate test. My early attempts with the ATC's have been far and away better than what I used to get out of my old monitors in terms of translation, so I already am growing to really appreciate them as a mix tool. And then, of course, money doesn't grow on trees...

I am primarily on my 25's now. I once again took the PMC's down and have been only using the 25's and NS10's which was my plan all along. My mixes are all starting to translate well with my first pass so I don't feel like I need the PMC's up anymore. I bought the new KRK 10" sub to see how it sounds in my room after the only notes I would get were notes about subs and 808's being too loud. I just didn't hear them in my room.

I do plan on upgrading at some point to the Subwoofer Pro 12", but I was't sure how I'd like working with a sub. So figured I'd spend $500 first before I dropped another +$2k on monitoring since I just spent a good amount on the 25's (25's + Subwoofer Pro I could've just bought ATC SCM45's!) The additional subwoofer really turns the 25's into another beast. I was able to measure and tune it accordingly and just the slightest bit of sub information really fills these speakers out beautifully. I've been just getting my initial sub levels early on then muting the sub the rest of the mix to take advantage of the upper low end detail that the ATC's have.

My Result's are pretty much collecting dust atm, I could send one in buuut yeah idk lol. I don't have a lot of time to be shipping things out right now with my schedule. I'd like to see a frequency response but not that bad.

Also I used to work in IB1s PMC's a few years back, curious how those measurements read. I'll have to check them out.

Really cool to hear about the sub. In my mind that would be the ultimate route - ATC20's with sub and I'd use it just as you describe (and for client playback on the rare occasions I have them over). Seems like for nearfield it would be similar to having a full range system like the SCM50's but with even more low end extension... kinda feels like cheating. No idea if it's actually comparable or not though.

Some PMC monitors are not designed for on-axis listening. Take a look the following attached image of the Result6 suggested position setting. The tweeter on-axis is actually facing 0.5m of your back, not directly to your ears. You will get a much smoother hi, wider stereo image but still have enough hi details and without feeling fatigue if you work long hours. From my experiences with some much larger PMC monitors/ speakers (MB2 or BB5...etc.), slightly off-axis provides the best balance.

I've read a lot of people have ATC 20's w a sub and they love it.

So, in a quick update, my basement flooded again (no damage, as it's unfinished and I've been keeping everything off the floor), but I had to vacate again to get the water out and dry everything out. I'm back in a bedroom, and, quite fed up with the sound of this particular room and the situation in general, brought up all of my treatment and threw it up in the corners/first reflection points.

I wasn't going to haul the ATC's all the way up here, so the PMC's came up instead. +1 for being such light speakers in comparison. Before treatment, I knew I was hearing the room more than anything, and it wasn't great. But after I threw up the treatment, and moved my desk up a bit off the wall to leave room for treatment, I was able to hear the PMC's in a fresh light. The low end in the listening position is much more formidable. The stereo image is great. Lots of separation between different layers of the mix. To my surprise, I may be able to get some decent work done up here after all.

Brad is onto something with his "it's the room not the speakers" thread. Anyways, haven't gotten a lot of substantial work on them yet, but initial impressions continue to impress.

I’m glad you’re experiencing these loudspeakers..
At least I’m not alone praising them

Despite what you end up with, it will ve a win-win for you..

You experienced (lived) and understand what the room does, plus you get to work with the loudspeakers you intend to buy (despite the brand/model you’re choosing)..

So you make your OWN informed decisions instead of listen to my or other people blabber..

hats off for taking the time of doing this..
I think it’s an important part of the development of your own skills, ears, experience..
So it’s time and efforts well invested, because you invest on yourself.





Cheu

Thanks, Cheu. Your support and encouragement means a lot. You're a cool dude!

I'm definitely learning a lot, and the confidence that having speakers that reveal the mix and translate well is really eye opening. I still have a lot of work to do in terms of developing my listening and mixing abilities, but I'm determined to make sure the room and monitoring chain are no longer the weakest link. From what I can tell so far, with these ATC's and PMC's as options, it feels like I really can't go wrong.

My buddy also lent me some Behritones, which I hate the sound of, but am learning to really appreciate as a reference tool, especially when balancing vocals and mid range instruments. Very helpful as I get to know the PMC's and ATC's.

Mixing dialogue on the PMC's has gone well. I feel like I made similar decisions that I would have made on the ATC's, which is great, as I'm pulling out the resonances and sibilance that used to take me more time (or that I would miss because my monitors/room wasn't revealing them to me). The main difference is the ATC's do seem to have earned their reputation as "brutal" in comparison to the PMC's. They show you what's wrong and then some, whereas with the PMC's I made a few cuts and adjustments and everything sounded nice. ATC's keep you working because you really hear everything that bothers you. PMC's seemed to have translated just as well so far though, at least with dialogue.

There's another quality that I have a hard time putting into words, but will try to describe here. The PMC's feel thinner/lighter compared to the ATC's. I liken it to a big heavy deep pine guitar cab vs a small thin light one. All the frequencies are there, they just have less weight to them. Maybe it's the fact that the speaker cabinets are lighter, or the speaker magnets are lighter, or the amps topology is the difference (light class D vs big class AB), or the fact that they are ported vs sealed etc., but whatever it is, it does come through in the overall tone of the speakers. Is this something others have experienced?

I think what you're hearing with the PMCs is a hole in the low mids where the ATCs don't have that. It makes them sound a bit quicker on their feet, so to speak, but they feel a little empty. The hole is a result of the way a transmission line works - it's not like a port where you basically just have a helmholtz resonator tuned to a specific frequency, it's really more like the woofer is connected to a specific length of pipe 1/4 wavelength long of a given frequency. Problem is, it's also half of another, so there's inevitably cancellation an octave above tuning.

I think the ATCs generally have better performance w/r/t distortion and certainly midrange detail (they tend to have a slight midrange hump where PMC usually has a midrange scoop, which exaggerates the detailed-ness).

This corroborates what I've been hearing as well. ATC's make me want to cut low mids if they are bloated, PMC's don't. That and the high end on the PMC's seems to be more forward and the ATC's more receded. That makes sense with the ATL being the cause. It does lead to a pleasant voicing though, albeit a little thin at times.

What I love about the Result 6 is how punchy they are. I found transient information to be really detailed compared to a lot of other speakers of that size. I always thought it had to do with their frequency response.

I'm not sure how they compare to the ATC 20s in that sense?

Also reading some of these responses about the Advanced Transmission Line and how it effects other frequencies is so interesting to me. I never really knew if I liked the whole "ATL" thing. It seems to have a greater effect on the larger PMC speakers compared to the smaller ones. The PMC IB1s that I used to use had such a deep and defined low end that was different than a lot of other speakers (especially larger ATC's like the ATC50 for example.) You could really feel the room shaking a bit with the IB1's. But with smaller PMC I've read mixed reviews about how effective (or even detrimental) the ATL is.

The transients on the ATC seem equally sharp, if not sharper. I think the difference is in the frequency response as you suspect. There is more high and end and high lows for that punch you describe, and the dip in the low mids leads to a feeling of more separation between the bass and the mids. This lets me hear the bass in a way that makes more sense to me than the ATC's, which feel deeper but also harder to distinguish in a way. I've read that lack of low end distortion can feel odd at first, so it might be that I'm still learning how to use it. The result, though, is that my mixes get the low mid dip that the PMC's have 'baked in' - which, I think is actually a point in favor of the ATC's. On the high end, having more forward highs leads to a sense of crispness that is more overt than the ATC's because they are louder, but to my ear all the high end information is there on the ATC's, it's just tucked back slightly. The PMC frequency response is definitely more similar to consumer playback systems, and so they do sound immediately more familiar to work on than the ATC's, which, as you also mentioned, have more of a learning curve.

I found it was difficult at first to determine the top end of a mix with the ATC's, where as the PMCs started screaming at me when I went too far with top end. Probably because they are bright in general so once you go too far it's almost unpleasant to listen to. That was the biggest reason I kept my Results with at first with my scm25's was to really figure out top end.

Really loving this thread btw, thanks for documenting all of this!

That's really interesting and a good point. I haven't, yet, mixed something too bright because of the ATC's, but I'll watch out for it. The funny thing is, the PMC's are helping me with the low end right now on the ATC's, so sorta the opposite. Yeah, it's fun to nerd out about this stuff. Looks like I found my people!

My first few mixes on my 25's were very bright Everything sounded good on them and I was just guessing a lot. But I learned after a while where the top end sits. In the end whether you go with the PMC or ATC's your mixes will translate great, it's really going to come down to which speaker makes you work in a way that you prefer.

And yeah regarding this thread, I rarely come to Gearslutz (err, "space") to check on a thread, but this one has me checking once or twice a day depending on my schedule. This has been a great ear-break spot for me lol

I bought 25’s for my space which is 4.5m by 3.5m and so far I’ve not felt the need for a sub.

The mid-range on the 25’s is incredible to my ears, the amount of detailed information on offer is incredibly useful for getting a mix perfected.

I find ATC monitors very unforgiving of anything but the perfect mix - mix errors stand out like a soar thumb which is a great news in a mix monitor.

One thing I find is to be careful with is volume as the 25’s have very low distortion and it’s easy to have them too loud without realising, I keep a meter handy and stay around 77db most of the time, definitely the least fatiguing monitor I’ve ever worked with.

It’s also worth getting the tweeter height right in relationship to your ears, they come with specific instructions from ATC and IME it’s worth following those set up instructions. The listening sweet spot is very wide in the left right plane but more critical in the vertical plane.

I have my tweeters on the inside orientation and the bass ports, which are open, to the outside.

I’m using mine in a 65” triangle which reading and looking at peoples set ups these days almost feels like I’m using them in the mid-field.

My only other reference is a pair of late 70’s Auratones.

Thanks, Russell. I agree that it's so easy to crank the volume on the 20's and not realize it. I think, for me, a sub would help with that a bit as it's the low end I'm looking to zero in on oftentimes. Tweeter height is definitely very important over here as well.

Cool to see you've get Aurotones as a reference. I mentioned this earlier but my buddy lent me some Behritones and they have been useful in learning the ATC's as sometimes there is so much clarity and separation in the mid range that I don't know if a vocal is sticking out too much. The Behritones are a nice reference check, and I'm getting a better feel for the ATC's with time.

Well vocal level is tricky no matter the reference as there’s no absolute right or wrong, I always run off alternative mixes with the vocals up and down a dB.

I use my Auratones to check the bass and kick are speaking well in the low mids when bass response is all but absent.

Good points all around. I never thought of running several mixes at once with the vocals up and down. That's a great tip for a car test. Will definitely use this one, as that tends to be one of my main areas of revision. Also, my bass tends to work really well on behritones but I realized I'm lacking attack on my kick and relying too much on the thump (habit picked up from mixing live shows with lots of sub I imagine). Very useful tips here, Russell!

Agreed it's easy to listen to these too loud, I was guilty with that as well. While they're not too fatiguing, I found my old Neumann KH310's to be much less. But that was due to their "relaxed" midrange. The 25's at a lower level are good for long periods of working tho.

I didn't think I needed a sub either, but in my space I just felt that lower octave needed a boost. I keep my sub VERY low, its on the slightest amount just to even out the frequency spectrum. They actually remind me a bit of the larger PMC's now, with them having insane mid range with the ability to rumble the floor a bit. Is the sub needed? Not really. But for the genres I work in it helps determining where those deep 808 and synth basses should sit.

The 25's have been life changing tho, I don't think I'll ever work full time on another speaker outside of the 3way ATC line again. I too keep mine with tweeters as since the ports are on the outside. I've actually considered porting them with the sub, but I've got to run tests and haven't had the time to do so.

Remind me what sub you are using again?

A lot of folks love the 25's or the 20's, but seems not many have tried both. Would be super curious how different and in what ways they really are.

I'm just using this new KRK S10.4 sub, but I plan on getting a Subwoofers Pro Sub2-10C in the future.

I know it was popular a while back to use plugins like Waves MaxxBass to get the bass to speak a bit clearer on small speakers by adding harmonics to the bass fundamentals but I never seem to get on that well with these things - maybe my own genre of music just doesn't need it and I've done better just working with EQ/compression and being careful with my arrangements.

But yeah, vocals and bass those are the two mix elements that I'm always thinking up a touch - down a touch - is that is it - just one more mix!

I read someone on this forum say - a mix is never finished you just reach a point you feel ok abandoning it and moving on

I agree, ATC 3 ways are a great mix tool.

I assisted mixing some tracks on ATC 150's - now those monitors in a great room are just crazy good - also stunning for tracking and hearing back the raw sound - amazing!

Sorry if I’m hijacking this thread.. My dilemma Currently I’m on PSI A21m with a dynaudio 18s sub and have them in my 13x13 moderately treated room. It seems to work, however I’m thinking I want or need more resolution in the mids without going to a three way. How loud do you work at, 80+ db, without a sub how do your projects translate in the lower register?
Thanks

I don't mix too loud. Probably 80 or below. I used to mix with a sub and translation in the low end was always an issue (room wasn't properly treated).

Currently, with the ATC's and PMC's and no sub, I'm getting better low end translation, but I still need to jump in the car or play stuff on the stereo to get the balance right. Still learning the monitors.

I just did a mix from the ground up on the PMC's and it translated excellently. It helped that the band was a three piece with a single vocalist, and they do rockabilly stuff so everything already has its own space in the mix for the most part and they have a fairly stable dynamic range. But the PMC's continue to impress. The band I mixed on the ATC's from the ground up was more of a jam thing where everyone was playing a lot all the time and was much more dynamic, so I think it made for a more challenging mix, but the low end was harder for me to figure out on the ATC's. However, mixing dialogue, the ATC's definitely have more mid range resolution. Much easier to notch out issues, and translates to a smoother dialogue mix on other systems than the PMC's.

I'm going to have a really hard time deciding which to keep.

The question really is are the ATC's worth the extra $3500? They very well could be if you find them a better fit for what type of work you do most. If you find both the PMC's and ATC's are so similar that it isn't drastically shortening your work time or making your mixes sound night and day better (on the ATC's,) then your decision shouldn't be too difficult. The difference in cash can either be put towards something else like room treatment, or saved. My opinion is PMCs + room treatment will be better than ATC's in an untreated room.

I spent an extra $4kish to go from the KH310's to the ATC 25's. Both could have gotten the job done fine but I can do a ton more in less time on the ATC's, so the difference in price made sense for me. I had every intention of returning the ATC's if they weren't a night and day difference to the Neumanns. But they were, and my mixes have greatly improved since then, and I can get much more work done in less time which helps me either A - have more of a personal life, or B - take on more projects. I tend to choose B most of the time lol.

Just trying to put it into perspective, easy in theory but much more difficult to make the decision so I get it!