Hello y'all! I'm looking to grab a high-end set of b-speakers to work as an "equal but alternate" to by current setup (Adam S3H with Sub15 through a Grace M905). I've narrowed it down to these options, which are readily available in the United States. Here's some quick room facts!

- Treated -> Yes, though I'll probably be gabbing more.
- Room size/Dimensions/Makeup - Wood floors and a complete 12 x 13 cube I'm afraid. I luckily have Sonarworks to help out (does a bang-up job with the Adams).
- Music. Soundtrack, electronic, funk, rock, rap you name it.
- Typical monitoring volume - I usually mix and work at somewhere in the 55-70gB range. The Adams (with the Sub) have plenty of "impress the clients" headroom, so what I'm particularly keen on is an alternate voicing that makes me look at the mix through a different window. Some research on what I've foun thusfar.

Kii Three -> Excellent at small to mid rooms that are less-than-perfect and for working at lower-ish volumes. If I grabbed these I would probably be looking at grabbing the BXT extensions in the next six months as well. I've heard downsides about low-end distortion though, and given what I do can go quite low, I don't want low-end distortion mucking up everything else.

ATC -> I think everyone's absolute favorite here. I'm hesitant due to the common wisdom that you need a stellar room to get the most out of this range of ATCs (110/150ASL), and if I'm going to get a set of speakers at this level, I'd really like to do them justice. There's also been (again) mention of them lacking low-end.

PSI A25M -> The A25M seem to have a reputation as being quite good, and they're also the least expensive of the bunch (yay! more money for other goodies!). I've seen Muzzy (drum and bass producer) adore his, and that makes me curious.

Dutch and Ductch -> Somewhat like the Kii Three but with more low end (and the expense of precision and clarity).

Grimm LS1 -> I think until the Kiis, these used to be my dream speakers. I can swing for these and the subs at a later point. The biggest issue is getting these into the US.

For some quick Q&A:

Can't you just demo them?
- With Covid, not easily. I'm an immunocompromised asthmatic recovering from Stage II cancer, so even though I'm in Austin I can't just go demo them. Likewise, I'd like to avoid the amount of back and forth of shipping out/shipping back a demo pair.

Your room should come way first!
- It does. It's well enough treated, just not on the level of a custom-built room. Unless I blare music at ungodly volumes, the traps and absorbers catch about 70% in the issues.

DSP is awful!
- I use Adam S3H with DSP and Sonarworks for correction, so I'm not particularly convinced or worried about this. I get that companies that use DSP sometimes make compromised with componentry. That's just a part of making a product though, and with a day-job in software I get it.

So give me your thoughts and perceptions. I mostly just want to hear your encounters with each, listening/mixing experiences, etc!

The ATC 150 is about 2ft across the baffle and 2ft deep.
The ATC 110 is about 2ft across the baffle and 1-1/2ft deep.

I wouldn't worry about low end at all (except for your awful room dimensions and room modes -- no, dsp can't fix room modes; you can't eq those out). If you have a door(s) on your walls, I'd keep them open to change the room modes)
My point is they are much bigger speakers than your others (including the Adams you have.) And also weigh a lot more. They would be hard to position in your room with you sitting in a good place for your room issues. And that's before you consider your Adams also being in the room.

A better option would be the ATC SCM45A. You could probably stack them above or below the position of your Adams. (And you will probably end up ignoring the Adams after awhile anyway)

Ah! The SCM45a then. I spoke with Richard Devine a bit and he seems to love his! I hope I wouldn’t ignore the Adams! I do still love them! ������

Quick side note: we are planning on moving to a bigger place in the next few months. 20x15 room there, though still square. Carpet flooring.

How to tame a resonance at 22hz

Not saying DSP is an alternative to treatment, but assuming well treated room; adding a well tuned DSP (and possibly a pair of subs in order to avoid the floor bounce related dip in the 100-150 Hz range) can do miracles.

Flooring question

Ooooh. Thank you! Super informative.

Just quickly saying : AFAIK, room resonances don't change relatively to speakers volume. Whether your speakers play soft or loud, room modes length will stay the same. It's probably more likely that Fletcher-Munson curves make you hear more bass (an thus more low end modes) at higher volume.

As far as your speaker situation is concerned, here is my humble opinion :

- Your S3H + Sub15 is already a very high-end, very capable fullrange system. The other monitors you mentioned are not going to be better or worse, just different.

- If I were you I would follow Jens Eklund's advice : buying a second sub (same model), placing both of them on the floor very close to each S3H, high-passing the latter as high as possible in order to avoid the floor bounce related dip that Jens mentioned. It should also reduce room's width related modes, and lower the intermodulation distortion of the S3Hs.

- Then, for a really different mixing flavour, maybe buying some Auratones or other small speakers. They will be much easier to place next to the S3H than the big speakers you mentioned (thus compromising the placement of the S3H less), and will give a complementary rather than comparable listening option.

- Buying one additional Sub15 + a secondary pair of small speakers will be much, much less expensive than any new pair of the speakers you mentioned.

- You could also sell your S3H + Sub15 and buy another system. Only the Kii Three + BXT, thanks to its tower arrangement, will prevent the floor bounce dip. Distortion of low frequencies is only a problem without the BXT module. The latter brings 200% more woofer radiating area to the Kii Three, making low end reproduction much easier. BTW, speaker cardioid directivity is IMHO nice but overrated as far as room acoustic issues are concerned. They send less signal to the rear, but sound going forward and sideways is still going to bounce everywhere and excites room modes. Their most noteworthy bonus in my mind is to reduce front wall SBIR in the low-mids (if said front wall is not treated and speakers are right against it).

- It is, in my opinion, better to have one fully optimized monitoring system rather than two compromised systems (the small second pair of monitors like the Auratone would not bring much compromise to the main monitors).

Interesting thread! I'm looking at PSI ATC Kii myself, just waiting for dealer to open for demo again.. F covid ?

12 feet or meters? Perhaps consider shaping an 'internal' room within that one, otherwise you'll be fighting an uphill battle whatever you choose.

High SPL is only useful if the room can handle it, there will be an optimal SPL level (limit) before it starts to fall apart. You might find the Kii's (which I use in a GIK treated room) spot on.



They measure great. I'm using the internal EQ/filters and a touch of MathAudio Room EQ, which is far better than Sonarworks imo (coming from a Trinnov).

How high is the ceiling btw?

@ pentagon know's his stuff, listen to him :¬)

Que?

That was quite ambiguous. I meant louder = more obvious reflections etc. Quieter mixing/playback levels can lessen issues when using mind/nearfield.

You are talking about spending $20,000 on a pair of speakers based on some else's opinion?

There is nothing that deserves one owns personal opinion in the studio more than monitors/speakers. The choice is always based on one's personal biases/likes and dislikes.
You either feel you can get on with them when you listen and work or you don't.

If you really are considering a pair of ATC 150ASL, its worth it to wait until you can listen to them in person. And if you can't get a demo in your space, then just wait for the dealer in your city/country to set one up for you(hopefully they are setup in a space that is properly treated).

As has been said the cabinets are big and heavy. One person alone cannot lift them. You will need someone to help who hopefully is strong. Because they are so heavy you need custom stands. Also you are limited in terms of speaker locations. Lastly because of their depth in your current space you will have SBIR issues even if you push them up right up to front wall. If you have to bring them out to treat front wall SBIR or Modal issues you will have new issues because you have to move your listener location closer to the center of room which creates new issues.

The 110 depth is not as profound, but you will have new issues in terms of influence of side wall SBIR.

Acoustics is linear (at least up to about 194 dB = 1 atm), so the reflection level relative to direct sound does not change with playback level. What could arguably change is the perceived level due to masking at low level and the different shapes of the Fletcher–Munson curve at different levels.

In order to change the relative level difference between direct and reflection, you need to either treat the areas related to the reflection or move the source closer to the receiver. The first option is naturally the better one since the latter can only reduce the reflection level in relation to direct sound somewhat, but it can never completely eliminate the reflection (unless receiver impractically close to the source that is …).

Spot on. I'm currently reviewing a small pair of DSP monitors that are only 90cm from cone to ear, at low levels (still entirely usable) room interaction is minimal. Still depends on room size, placement and treatment of course.

Fantastic looking company you have there, congrats! Would love to hear one of your rooms/mains. Any technical specs available?

Thanks!


Some info on our main speaker system can be found in this thread:
Cardioid speakers

Specs for our bass system can be found on bottom of this page:
https://shop.holonor.com/en/all-prod...lonor-121.html

Last week, AlphaAudio did a live broadcast of a listening session with the Grimm LS1be, Dutch&Dutch 8C and the ATC SCM100A...

It's available on Youtube. It's all in English, worth watching (and listening) for reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NELvyX822IU

If you have a proper room with proper treatment definitely go with the ATC. They're hard to beat.
Don't listen to the "your room is too small for ATC 150" calls ...
There's a good thread touching this topic with Thomas Jouanjean (northwardacoustic) fully agreeing on it.

Why do you need a BIG Studio Monitors even in the small Control Rooms?

If your room acoustics are mediocre and you can't or don't want to invest more; go with the Dutch&Dutch 8C.
Kii Three are nice as well but I had them both in my studio and I personally prefered the 8C.
More headroom, more musical and relaxed and physical bass.. whereas on the Kii's I heard the bass but couldn't feel it.

While I had both 8C and Kiis I ended up with ATC 100 and couldn't be happier.
My 2 cents

I have heard ATCs sounding great, soffit mounted in a fully treated room.
Keith

Their conclusion is that D&D are more surgical, as in you can hear more layers in the instruments and spot flaws easier, and ATC sound bigger and warmer but color the sound somewhat. The general consensus was that ATC were more pleasant to listen to. They are bigger speakers after all. I think I would still prefer a more precise tool when it comes to mixing, but I first need to hear them side by side.

Be sure to demo the Kii's. Myself and a couple of others here picked them over the 8c (and ATC) due to wanting a more neutral/surgical presentation. Apparently they tried to get them for the comparison but there was a waiting list/backorder.

Having said that all of the monitors in question are incredible tools. Whatever floats your boat.

Recapping the conclusion at https://youtu.be/NELvyX822IU?t=8668 in short: the D&D are sounding very energetic, punchy and natural, very versatile.

ATC: Big sound, fun, not the most natural, but very pleasant to listen to. Difficult to work with for different music styles.

Grimm LS1be's are "in its own league" in terms of accuracy, detail and to listen to. The Hedd Tower 1's got mentioned as well as it had some similarities to the clarity of the Grimm's.

I can't say much about the ATC's or D&D's myself, but I tested the Kii Three (without sub) and LS1's side by side before buying. I was blown away by the Grimm's accuracy. The sound of the Kii's was, compared to the LS1's, lacking depth, and the Kii's felt very "in my face" and clinical.

Listening to the Grimm's was a more "natural" experience, showing details in music that didn't show on the Kii's either. For example small delays of short sounds got buried by the Kii's, but were clearly audible on the Grimm's. There was room for it in the sound stage. The Kii's sounded too "compact" and compressed for my liking.

On the Grimm's it sounded like every little sound had a little envelope around it. I'm not sure how else to describe it. It was much easier to follow along with all elements, instead of being thrown all elements "in my face" with the Kii's. I obviously went for the LS1's and have not regretted it.

I had a similar experience until getting the Kii's in the sweet spot. They sound as you describe the LS1's. Worth noting that I use a Grimm clock for my whole system and feed the Kii's AES as to avoid unnecessary ADDA when monitoring.

BTW, Bruno Putseys was hired by Grimm to design the LS1. It was 100% his design bar the legs, which was Eelco's idea. Post LS1 he started Kii Audio, and designed the Threes using the same (and more advanced) tech. His own words. I'm guessing you didn't hear the Kii's at their best.

You need a stellar room to get the best out of any monitor. This idea that a cardioid speaker is going to solve all of your room issues is nonsense. It may alleviate or eliminate some specific issues you can encounter in some (not all) rooms, but ultimately if you're spending this much money on speakers you should *always* be putting them in a good room.

Choose the speakers based on which is going to give you the presentation of music you want to hear. I'm an ATC user and fan myself and have tried other monitors with no success so far. Can't speak for the Grimm's but neither PSI or Kii gave me the resolution or fatigue-free experience I get from my SCM20s. The bigger ones are a level up again.

Loudspeakers are completely characterised by their measurements so that is where I would start.
You might also look at two new design/measurement led loudspeakers the GGNTKT M1 and Mesanovic RTM10, we haven’t received the RTM’s but the M1’s are superb ( and cheaper)!
Keith

What you have described could be explained by the fact that the Kiis are DSP monitors and that extra digital processing step (plus the AD/DA conversion around it) is eating away some of the fine details. That being said, the DSP is there for a reason and probably fixes some of the issues that you might find in an analogue speaker, maybe even the Grimm! So it's really down to your personal preference: apple or orange. Also we are getting in the area of .1% sound improvement and crazy diminishing returns when it comes to cost of the equipment.

How about the M2? I have seen posts from some people saying that they are reviewing small nearfield DSP monitors scheduled to release around this time of the year, my guess is that's the M2s.

It's not the M2

The M2 is the larger floorstander, that won’t be ready until the Spring.
Keith

No, you hear more through the Kiis, just more.
Keith

I disagree with Keith on this.

I’d recommend listening with your ears, rather than relying solely on measurements.