I hear these don't have output transformers. Are those worth getting for the "NEVE" sound? I have chance to get two modules. I need advice on this. Do you have any experience with them? How they compare to 1073, 1081..?
Thanks,
Kostadin

Any thoughts? What they sound like? On the ones I'm planing to get, there is no power supply, so I can not try them.
I don't know if I should bother getting them, and then find somebody to build me a power supply..

Kostadin

Not sure about the 33122A modules, but I sure LOVED my 33114 modules... at least when they were working. The 33114s are surely worth having, they have an obvious Neve "crunch" character, the eqs anyway. The eqs are incredible. But... I no longer have my 33114s. I got tired of having them repaired, too unreliable. It's a shame, but reliability does come first... can't have things crapping out in the middle of a recording or mix. Those 33114s ruined a few excellent takes one time when the pres started going south... can't have that.

My favorite modern "Nevey" eqs are now the Vintech X73s. For the price especially, the eqs in the X73 will give any vintage Neve a run for it's money. Right before I sadly let go of my 33114s, I did do an A/B test, the 33114 and a Calrec PQ15S against the X73 (eqs only)... specifically on hard rock distorted electric guitar... the X73 won... seemed to have a wider Q, just a bigger, clearer, crunchier sound in general... very "Nevey" character indeed... good eq points too. Perhaps the 33114 and PQ15S were at a handicap due to age and wear... but that's partly my point... the vintage stuff, unless you are a tech and know how to keep it all spiffed up, will not sound and perform like a new unit... and you don't need old worn units failing in the middle of important projects.

So... while I cannot give you a specific opinion on the 33122A, I've tried my best to give you some sort of related advise anyway Little by little, thanks to all the modern "reissues", I have gotten rid of most of my unreliable classic vintage stuff and picked up lots of wonderful "new" reissue stuff... 1073DPA, X73, API, UA Classics, etc... thank god for reissues!!! No more reliability related downtime!

I love them, we have 6 at our studio.

The mic pre is classic Neve, and the EQ is really cool but quite different sounding (more "bite") from the 1066/1073.
The output stage is class AB, but sounds fine.

They are really a bargain compared to what you have to pay for 1073:s these days.
You have to get hold of the external tranny though!

If I remember correctly all you need to do is add some Marinair 2567 output transformers to the output of 33122A's and you're in business. The power supply thing is easy, all you need is a +24vdc power rail [and +48vdc if you want to add phantom]. While [again if I remember correctly] the module only draws like 250ma I would suggest something like a 2amp power supply so you can deliver proper "current on demand" to the modules for things like 'transients' and the proper formation of a bass wave.

In their "raw" state the way you describe I wouldn't pay more than like $850- each for them... but as always, YMMV.

Peace.

Allright, I'm no Neve guru or anything. So if I'm wrong about any of this, please be gentle with your replies. This is my recollection of what I've been told over the years.

The 33122A is out of a broadcast style Neve. The 33114, 33118 & 33122A are all basically the same module. The 33115 on the other hand, is discrete where the others are not. They are all Class A/B amplifiers. They all have the same preamp sections. The main differences are in the eqs. The 33118 has the most frequencies on the mids. The 33115 has the least. There are also preamps floating around called the 3405 and 3415 (I think???). These are just line amps converted to mic pres. They sound (pretty much) like the preamp sections of the broadcast modules. If I'm not mistaken, the 1081 employs the same preamp section as well but a much sweeter and more powerful eq.

The 1073, 1064, 1084, etc. are Fully Class A, discrete with very few differences from model number to model number. Most of which again, being eq points. Like a 1073 is fixed at 12k on the highs, a 1064 is fixed at 10k on the highs and a 1084 has selectable high end at 10k, 12k, 14k, and 16k I believe. Much like a Vintech X73.

Now that I've bored you with with all of that, the sonic differences are that the 80 series modules (1073, 1064, 1084 etc.) are a little darker with the big bottom and silky highs. The broadcast stuff (33114, 33115, 33118, 33122A, etc.) are more in your face and "harder" sounding. They are still great and very musical, but they do not sound the same as the 80 series modules.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't think you are getting a poor man's 1073 when buying a 33122A. They are both great. Just in different ways.

-Aaron

Hi

Just thought that I'd chip in.... You can get 3114's and 5's in both discrete and IC versions but, whichever the case, they are still class AB. Either way, they sound nice and I don't personally hold with the "IC = spawn of Satan" audiophile freakishness.

The 33122 and 33135 both were designed to be used with the BBC designed T1801 transformer that always seems to have vanished when these modules are sold. A shame that because that's what they were designed to work with.

Fletcher's suggestion of a LO2567 will work but the alternate step up ratios of +4 or +10 fall neatly either side of the T1801's +6dB. I'd go for the +10dB like in the 1081 as the amp will drive it and you'll have gobs of output even if the gain steps on the gain switch aren't quite right.

Going back to the discrete/IC deal, the BBC hated the Neve 440 output stage because its single transistor input had sucky recovery from gross overload. If you imagine a radio/TV studio accidentally receiving a line signal into a mic path and sending a huge overload towards the transmitter... the broadcast limiter will catch that and prevent over-modulation but, meanwhile, the 440 is distorting like crap even after the overload has been removed.

Not good and Neve had to design a new board, the 512, with a true differential input, and these more expensive amps were only used on BBC consoles.

Then along came the 640 with a 5534 IC (with infinitely better characteristics to the 440) and the same BC441/461 output transistors. That's why you will practically always find 638 and 640 amplifier in broadcast modules.

Neve knew what they were talking about with the new amplifiers and the BBC were no slackers with their own design teams.

Roll the clock forward 25 years and folk see the IC, think "Oh God!" and feel morally inspired to replace them with discrete amplifiers... that are still Class AB.... and the IC's are full of very closely match discrete transistors anyway!

Anyway... my 2c

Just a thought:
If I didn't have the original transformers I would rather get a Sowter/Lundahl/Jensen transformer with the right 1:2 winding ratio (and at least 24 dB headroom).
I believe in being as close to original spec as possible as opposed to using a tranny that belongs in a different Neve module. But as always, YMMV.

Anyway, in our studio we got three kinds of transistor mic pre's: 1066, 33122a and API 512. I must say that the 33122a holds it's own against the others. As somebody pointed out it has a more "forward" sound than the 1066/1073 etc.
I really do like them and if I had to choose my desert island pre, I would go for the 33122a. The EQ is quite different sounding from the pure class A modules, which I love it for. It can get really aggressive while still sounding musical, and is a great creative tool for me.

The big point is: How much are you paying? I have to agree with Fletcher, max $ 850, as you are looking at a few 100 bucks for extra hardware.

They have a relay on the input that switches between the mic and line input transformers depending on the gain switch setting. I suggest you swap them for new ones (the original model still in production) as they are likely going to fail soon, if they haven't already.

Thanks for all of your responses!
Right now they are in mounted in a two-space thick rack plate. Where should I look for power supply? Do the places like Mouser or Digi-key have already built power supply I can use for the modules? Does anybody have pin out wiring for 33122A and Transformer Wiring info? I’ll find out about the price Monday.
You guys are great! This is the best forum!

Hi

I'd be very surprised if it was even close to worn out. A relay has a MTBF rating usually very high in the thousands (if not millions) of operations. I doubt that it has switched from mic to line a teeny fraction of that...

As for contact wear/corrosion, the relay is sealed with gold contacts.

It's a good policy to only fix things when they are broken. Now, talking about worn components... the EQ and phase switches might be in that category and a squirt of switch lubricator/cleaner like Electrolube EML would minimize crackles... and you can buy new switches from Stanler Components in the UK.

If my memory serves me well, the module has a lamp called a Bimdicator at the bottom. It's white and looks like a spring onion. The incandescent bulb inside probably burnt out decades ago but I have cut the moulding open in the past and slid a yellow or white LED and resistor inside the original casing.

Something not mentioned thus far is the module's mating connector and you should make sure the seller provides you with one. You can still buy them.

A Power One linear dc power supply with a rating of 24v dc at one amp minimum will power a couple of the modules.

I've had a pair of the 33114a's for about 12 years.They are one of the most distinct sounding pre's that I've heard.They shape the mids like no other pre/eq and are indespensible on guitars.My only problem is that I cheaped out on the rack job and sometimes have issues with them being slightly inconsistent and the output pots aren't reliable..Along with my V 72's(which I can never seem to keep matched) I have to say that I plan to never rack any vinatge modules again.They are great to have but maintainance is a real drag.When my one of my Chameleons had a problem the manufacturer shiped out a replacement and I wasn't without the pre for a day.Does anyone reccomend someone that repairs and racks these sorts of modules reliabaly?
In response to the original post I will say that the Pre's sound great,If anyone has any specific info on my modules I'd like to hear about them.

What about vintageking custom rack? Are those reliable? Maybe little over-priced, but...

I can agree with you on the relays. Some of the modules we have came out of a console that was in daily use up until 1999, and some of the relays did crap out.
The owner of the desk decided to swap all of them at the same time to avoid further problems, so I just though it might be a good idea.
I stand corrected

I can't recall seeing them with the light bulbs, maybe you are thinking of modules that were in recording desks, rather than the BBC consoles?

To original poster:
You might want to check the Wunder Audio Black Box, it gives you phantom power as well as beeing able to deliver a lot of clean current at 24 V.
If you get any more 24 V modules later on, it will make a worthwhile investment.

Thanks for all of your responce! I've got them! I paid $1800 for a pair mounted on two space thick rack plate. They told me Dan Alexander did some job about output transformers and wiring. So they come with two transformers:
This is what is stamped on them:
"Marinar
(Radar) LTD
Harlow Essex
Telephone 24786"
and It has 8321 # on the side.

Also has some Capacitor and couple of the resistors. I'll post pictures later.
Is that a good transformer for them? Sould I replace it?

My other question is; To power them both with the current Chandler LTD power supply?
Thanks,
Kostadin

Hi

What is stamped/engraved in the top of the transformer? Are there numbers from 1 to 8 or does it say levels like +6?

Is there a model number like T1801 or LO2567?

Here are the pictures from the transformers:






Also, I ordered Wunder Audio Black Box Power supply, thinking of adding more modules in the future (Gearslutz!)
For 48V, should I just put the switchers in the wires going to the connectors to be able to On/Off 48V?
Thanks a lot,
Kostadin

Hi

Yes, that is the correct BBC spec/designed + Marinair Radar built transformer for that module and its sibling the 33135.

33122A too?
Also Can you please help me how to incorporate a 48V switcher? I'm getting Wunder Black Box and it produces 24V and 48V. I'd like to be able to control 48V for Ribbons, so should I just put a switcher on the active 48V wire coming from the power supply to the connector? I'm just careful (not enough educated in electronics), and I don't want to screw up something (Mic pre, microphone..)
Thanks a LOT Geoff for valuable information you provide us,
Kostadin

Hi

First point is that virtually every big Neve 80** console (including 58/68/78) went out of the door with the 48 volts permanently connected to the mic XLR's. The reason for this being that it doesn't hurt ribbon mics because, with the 48v applied equally to both sides of the balanced signal, there is no voltage potential across the microphone.

Now, if you used a flakey mic cable with one connection lifted and/or broken then it might cause some harm and, if you had a mic patch bay I suppose you could leave a jack half inserted.... but this just illustrates that it wasn't a major issue back when.

Answering your question, I presume that your modules have got a mating connector and the wires aren't soldered directly to the pins so it should have a pair of 6800 ohm resistors wired to pins 1 & 2. The tops of those resistors are joined and connect to 48v.

If you want switched 48v, just put a switch in line with the power to those resistors.

By the way, one thing Dan is famous for is not connecting grounds to his Neve modules. They need a ground and the module will be more stable at high gains and less susceptible to RF if it's grounded. So the power supply should have a three pin ac plug and ground should be one of the cables going to your modules.

Connect it to pin 29 at the far end of the module back connector. Also, those green wires hanging off the output transformers are the interwinding shield and they are also supposed to connect to ground.

Anyone questioning the wisdom of good grounds to audio equipment should go through the archives of Geekslutz and read the posts about folk getting tingly sensations and electric shocks off their microphones! Scary stuff!

If there is any issue of a ground loop (which shouldn't happen if things are wired correctly) then all one has to do is lift the shield in the output cable from the module output transformer.

Here are the pictures how it looks from the back and front:









I measured my Chandler LTD Power supply and it has +/- 28V and 48V. So I decided to get Wunder audio one, ($100 more than Chandler's) and it has lights on the front showing 24V and 48V. I'm getting it tomorrow. I can wait to try those baybies...

Mr. Geoff Tanner I see the resistors you mention to put the switch on.

Kostadin

Hi

I can't see a wire to pin 29 and only see two power cables so, as predicted, there's no ground going to the module despite the pretty green wires everywhere.

Bad, very "non-Neve"

tutt

I'll "fix" that. heh

After Carefull inspecting on the units, One of the Philips 24V 470mF seems like it was disconnected on one pin, and seems blown. Any replacement for can use for that? I can not find Philips's exact replacement.
Kostadin

Hi

If it's 24v it's a power supply decoupling capacitor, probably for the output stage.

Just replace it with a capacitor of similar value and voltage. You can probably get one by another manufacturer from Mouser.com

Is 470mf 35V is going to work? There is three of them 470mF 24V and the bad one is close to the knobs on the front pannel, in the right corner. There is two more on the back by the connector.

The one of the unit i tested it, and seems that has lower output gain comparing to the other devices I have; Chandler LTD-1, Demeter, ... and if I go with the gain to -60 or -70 dB with regular Shure SM58, it distorts, not badly, but you can hear it. Is it normal?

I can get more gain on the output if I chain it with compressor (Disstressor, Purple MC76...) but I don't know what level it supposed to have at the output.
It is new unit to me...

Thanks,
Kostadin

Hi

Good, and if you look closely at the unit, there's no ground on the proper "ground" pin 29, but there's a silly green wire linking the 0v of the power supply to pin 3 which is actually the anchor pin for the shield of the mic cable.

Multiple earth to 0v links are pointless. Especially when there's no @#$% earth!

The power supply should connect to ground via a 3 core cable and plug. The power supply 0v should be connected to ground at the power supply, i.e. at one point only.

Then you need a nice gauge ground wire to go to pin 29 on both modules. Cut off that silly link to pin 3.

When Neve consoles were built there was no connection at all between the 0v and the console frame. Then, when the console went into test department, they would anchor the 0v (B-) bus bar to ground at one point, indeed a point where they got the best noise figure.

Ground is your friend and, provided that everything is at the same ground potential, you won't get any potential differences that would cause ground currents to link via audio cables.

So, by completely ignoring ground and the needs of the modules, the rack would be more likely to cause a problem by getting its ground from a fortuous connection via a rack screw or down the audio cables.

Logical, that is not.

heh

Hi

470uF 35v works fine.

You shouldn't need 60 or 70dB gain with a dynamic mic. If the front panel says 70dB that's the gain you will get. It sounds like you are overdriving the pre... is there an output level control set to low?

If not, it sounds like there's something fishy with the modules. Is this the module with the bad capacitor?

No, That was the other one. There is no output gain on this setup.
I'll check the other one later, just to pu the capacitor in.
Mozart

Hi

What sort of output level are you expecting?.... the module should easily match the gains of the other preamps you mentioned. There's also at least 26dB of headroom so you shouldn't be distorting unless you are trying to get over +20dBu on the output and are overdriving the input.

If you are going into a A to D, what sort of level is that expecting to see?

Hi.

So, what are the 2 resistors and the cap and resistor in series on the output transformer??
I have one of these, and i have just attached the cables to it, and it is working fine!
I guess that they change the output impedance in some way.
Does anyone know the values??

Regards,
Dennis