I am starting a new thread for this, since it has little to do with the transfer procedure.

I started transferring my old DATs and the first tapes I did went fine, they transferred to the computer without a hitch (and could be rewound).

Then I came to a bunch of four FUJI R-120tapes, and without exception the tape ripped immediately.

Furthermore, I tried to repair one of these (which had ripped near the beginning) using some sticky tape and making sure the repaired part was not being played back. But alas, although the tape sort of played I only got a badly interrupted signal on them, about 1s of music followed by 3s of silence, irregularly.

I tried to forward the tape but it immediately ripped again.

So I think I have found out that these FUJI tapes don't keep well.

Never mind, I lost a four less important concert recordings. Nothing to get worked up about, I always expected this to happen. Just interesting that it is so obviously related to the brand.

Edit: To be fair, these tapes were recorded almost exactly 30 years ago (on a portable AIWA DAT recorder).

I'm a machine service technician and transfer technician. It could be more than one factor.

Possibly there is a machine fault which these tapes have exposed or brought on. I wouldnt risk even trying another tape before confirming the player itself is still in good working condition. For that taking the machine to a tech may be necessary. Unfortunately skilled techs and spare parts are not as easy to find these days.

Possibly the tapes have a sticking issue, or have been exposed to a little mould, perhaps being more vulnerable to mould than other tape types.

These DAT tapes are very thin and vulnerable. Slight mould can glue the tape winds to each other resulting often in a tear across the tape as it unwinds from the reel, which cannot be repaired. That section of the tape must be removed and a clean new splice made with proper splicing tape. A proper splicing block can help a lot.

These tapes are designed so that the tape splices at each end of a tape never touch the fast rotating head drum. A splice can destroy the tiny rotating heads as they smash into the splice at high speed.

If I was about to transfer a large number of tapes, even one valuable tape, I'd be making sure the playback deck was in very good working condition. Over the course of playing tapes machines can develop problems related or unrelated to the tapes played.

It is quite possible your Fujis were bad, if the transport is OK. Also possible it was just that batch, and other Fujis might be fine. I've seen some metal particle video cassettes (Hi-8) weld the tape into a nearly solid pack.

I've also had situations where dozens of DATs would play fine, then suddenly the next one would not, even after a trying a cleaning tape. It requires opening the machine and carefully cleaning the transport, using chamois sticks for the helical scan heads.

Variability of DAT deterioration is a PITA for restorations.

Yes those and other Metal videotape formats can have problems. I've not seen any Metal tapes welded together but have dealt with 8mm tapes with a little mold which can glue the tape winds together resulting in torn or broken tapes when unwound. If the mold is not too severe there's a technique to unwind the tape under tension which can unstick the winds without the need for chemical mold treatment.
Here's a demo from Colin showing the basic idea: https://youtu.be/8IbpKwGfu74?si=fKZcH7Ym6mX-raht

Metal tapes are very intolerant of anything including liquids which might damage the protective anti oxidation coating over the pure metal layer.

The mechanical tape damage problem is often related to the fragility of these very thin based tapes. The same VHS or open reel tape being thicker and stronger can often be unwound and the mold "glue" is simply broken apart as the tape is unwound, because the tape is stronger than the mold, even though precautions need to be taken to contain the mold remnants which is a whole other issue in itself.

But often even a tape which has some vulnerabilities can be played successfully in a machine in excellent maintained condition and set up to compensate for the weaknesses of that type of tape. Unfortunately knowing little, some people especially of the more impatient and gung ho persuasion tend to just bang an old tape into an old machine oblivious to the risks involved. Best seek help before we get in too deep.

Digital hardware and restoration software is powerless to deal with legacy tape and tape machine issues like this.

I agree for the need to often do a complete manual clean of the machine's tape path, but as we know it requires skill and knowledge to do without causing more damage. There's a good reason manufacturers recommended using a cleaning tape but for anything a cleaning tape couldnt fix, they advised sending the machine to a skilled technician. And that was back in the days when tapes and machines were new! We know it's late in the day now and things can be more complicated.

Thanks for your comments GLouie

Thanks both for your sound advice, which I appreciate.

However, these tapes are not precious. The effort of servicing the DAT machine is simply not worth the effort.

I have ordered a cleaning tape, just in case. I will also stick in some of the tapes which I already transferred, just to see, whether they now develop any problems, before I transfer any of the remaining tapes.

I am pretty sure that the FUJI tapes are the problem, not the machine (but I certainly am aware that I cannot be sure about this).

I have about a handful of tapes remaining, which are not on FUJI.

Sometimes just fast forwarding and rewinding a DAT tape before transfer will "cure" some of the problems. Best of luck! All good advice from TimTape and others.

At least two of them died when I did exactly that...

Fast winding is in a way the most dangerous as a lot of tape damage can happen in a short time. With DAT the tape is still fully engaged with the rotary head even in fast wind. It doesn't just wind safely inside the cassette.

Yes, I expected someone to write that. However, the tape was not rewound so I had no choice.

Some of the DAT tapes will go sticky. Some people have said that baking will help although I have never found that to work. What will usually work for me is putting the DAT machine into a deep freeze and doing the transfer cold. I have been told hard-freezing the tapes with liquid nitrogen will help free up the sticky layers but I have not tried that.

But yes, number one is making the sure the machine is clean and properly serviced. There are a lot of "rubber" parts on DAT machines that go bad and need to be replaced every five to ten years. We used to do an annual service when we were using DAT machines on a constant basis. Make sure the tension with the test tape is correct and you get a nice eye pattern before attempting to transfer old tapes with the machine. And if you run the machine in the freezer it's doubly important that the rubber stuff be fresh.

Or just send the tapes to Richard Hess. He has done good work with transcribing problematic DATs for us.
--scott

About the only DATs that I've had problems with are Maxell DATs which were stored in a fitted cupboard next to a north facing outside wall. There must have been some condensation because mould was starting to grow on the tape but the tape layers seemed to stick together even where there was no visible mould. Other makes of tape stored nearby don't seem to have been affected.

I also have some brand new sealed Maxell tapes which don't seem to have been affected.

I tried opening the tapes and very carefully peeling the tape from the pack but it broke very easily. I also tried baking a tape in the oven that I normally use for reel to reel tapes but it made no difference. However, I haven't tried freezing a problem tape - unfortunately I no longer have access to liquid nitrogen.

Yes the mould glues the tape winds to each other. Normal unwinding tears the tape apart, usually along a diagonal line. I experienced this about 20 years ago with Hi 8 tapes and last year with a Video 8 tape but it's essentially the same thing as DAT. They're all fragile, thin based tapes.

Again I give credit to Colin McCormack for demonstrating his tape back tension method. He was the first person I saw - professional or amateur - who demonstrated it, which is interesting as it's not exactly rocket science. It can work so long as the mould is only mild, the protective coating on the pure metal particles has not been breached and regulating the back tension is done with great care.

https://youtu.be/8IbpKwGfu74?si=t_wv27OR8h5ycfPI

Also 12volt vids demonstrates it but does it manually. I find this pretty crude. He touches the tape often which is not advisable. But again he has the basic idea right.

https://youtu.be/CYriajipTz0?si=fKNQoHFL6bECk98R


Instead of these 'open reel' methods I adapted a cassette shell and a small consumer cassette rewinder to allow what I find is more precise control of the back tension. Plus this way I feel the fragile tape inside the cassette is more safe from accidental unspooling, dust, fingerprints etc. With my jig the variable back tension is provided by two fingers pressed down on the supply reel flange while the motor pulls the tape from the reel. I have a footswitch to start or stop the the power to the drive motor. It makes things a lot easier and safer. As usual I could invest more time and money in making a more sophisticated device if I could recoup those costs via restored tapes charges. Photo of cassette below.

The only other discussion I've found on the mould sticking tape winds together on these thin (DAT) tapes and causing the tearing, is on the Great Bear site below. Interestingly even they dont seem to mention Colin's back tension method.

https://thegreatbear.co.uk/audio-tap...sticky%20mould.

I am pretty sure that glueing through mould is exactly what happened here with the FUJI tapes.

I don't have any Maxells.

OK. Can you upload a photo of the tape reel?

Too much effort...

This really isn't something that bothers me any more. It is my own fault for not storing these tapes well, and what is on them is not important enough to justify any more effort.

Did a DAT transfer about three weeks ago on my trusty Sony DAT deck. Everything went well. The DAT tapes were Sony. I have four DAT decks and all of them are in good condition.

My DA-88 that I had for years finally had a cracked head problem so I gave it to my mentor for spare parts. Those were the days...

Thanks for the links to the videos - the tapes that I have are worse than the ones in Colin's video although I haven't tried pulling them directly - it is actually difficult to unwind a long enough length of tape to get a good grip.

You may also notice that I already commented on the Great Bear post from last year.

I never had much to do with DAT cassettes. Looking at one it's obvious that like like compact cassettes they have only tape cores rather than full tape reels. That makes them difficult to handle out of the cassette and even more difficult to use Colin's back tensioning method as there are no reel flanges to grip. My modified 8mm cassette technique wouldnt work. Oh well, another complication.

Yes I see your post thanks, and Great bear's reply. Speaking of DDS I recall transferring some DAT audio tapes some years ago. All except a few transferred fine. The ones that didnt were marked DDS tapes which I think were for computer data. Some sort of incompatibility with standard DAT audio tapes but I dont now recall what it was.

IIRC, DDS tapes should be fine, except they can come in lengths far longer than DAT machines were meant to handle (60meters for a 120 minute tape?), potentially leading to tension problems. I heard a rumor once that DDS tapes were actually better than DAT, being from the center of the slitting web and tested for dropouts or some such. I never used DDS for DDS, and I might conjecture that if DDS was preformatted with data in some way, that might cause a problem with DAT. Or they just might have a problem with bit rot, I don't know. I have used plenty of DDS tapes for audio DAT and never had a problem, including archival retrieval 20 years later. And we did have a giant tape degausser tht definitely could erase DAT tapes if needed.

What a combination: super thin tape base layer, and pure metal data layer protected from oxidation by a super thin coating which degrades when wet. One would have been bad enough. No wonder the problems down the track unless stored very well and played on gear in stellar condition.

An Update:

I got a cleaning cassette. It is a DDS cassette, I read somewhere that they should work for DAT as well. However, that seems only to be half true. It does play for a few seconds but then the recorder stops and rewinds. Not really very helpful, especially as only the first few seconds of the tape will be used that way. Not sure what the way around that would be.

However, I decided I would risk it anyway and go on with the transfer process.

First I played back a complete recording which I had already transferred, just to see whether there were any mechanical problems with the machine. No problems whatsoever.

Then I started transferring the other tapes. I have now done 10 tapes, not a single problem. They all play back just fine, no dropouts, no mechanical problems, no ripped tapes.

It seems the problem was only with those four FUJI-cassettes. It is definitely mould as it is visible through the plexiglass. None of the other tapes had any visible mould. Most of those were Denon plus one TDK. More TDK to come.

These tapes were recorded between 1991 and 1994, so considering that they are well over 30 years old the failure rate is pretty amazing - except for those FUJIs.

I had a much higher failure rate with CD-Rs burnt in the early 2000s.

I suspect had I stored those DATs in a better climate (they have been sitting in a box in the basement for the last 15 years, humidity is often higher than it should be...), the FUJIs would have been fine, too.

That's good news. It seems the Fuji tapes were not quite as resistant to mold as the others. Even so, I'd keep an eye out for visible mold appearing on any of the other tape types and put any suspects to one side until after the clean ones are digitised.

Done. I transferred a total of 20 tapes. Of those 2 had problems, one tape ripped after about 45min, and one stopped somewhere but was able to play after I had forwarded past the problematic section (a few seconds of silence - the tape had not been rewound and was stored at approximately this position). Both of the problem tapes were TDK.
The four Fuji-Tapes are not included in this count, I could not rescue anything from those, but didn't try hard...

The rest of the tapes copied flawlessly.

BTW, pedantic I know: Speaking of "digitising" would be wrong, as the content was already digital. I transferred the digital data via TOS-Link.

Anyway, I am glad I did this, I have had a bad feeling about the se tapes, even though it is not likely that I will do anything with the recordings. But I like archiving things properly.