When the maximum peak of a recorded file is below -40dB and you tell Logic to normalize it, it'll tell you there's absolute silence. At the same time, the waveform zoom function stops to work. And while region gain will still work, it won't be reflected visually.
100% reproduceable.

This is absolutely inacceptable behaviour.

Then you should make a commitment and switch to Cubase, you get a good discount for cross-grading. If you wait during sales it’s fairly inexpensive to switch.

S1 has some weirdness (the hybrid buffers don’t work as expected for example) - if you want heavy duty then Cubase is strong.

Your mental health is too important to constantly allow a piece of software to disturb it.

I’ve tried various DAWs, the moment some workflow item is too consistently annoying and I can’t comfortably get around it, to the bin they go.

I’ll say though that Cubase isn’t great for small screens. Logic for me is better. Ableton and Bitwig are best for small screens.

If you have an external large monitor - all good.

I was thinking about it during Steinberg's last sale. But then, see my other posts, there's pretty good reasons for me not to switch.

Fwiw, if I really needed the features Cubase offered, I'd likely switched ages ago. But I don't. I was only mentioning them to display just how much Steinberg is ahead in terms of technical development.
Ah well, I'd really love "capture last take as recording" for audio - something Cubase also offers (from all I know even if you're in stop mode and just noodle around). In Logic however, it's even half broken for MIDI ever since LPX (in cycle mode). What a shame.
It's in fact one of the things winding me up the most. Break things and never fix them again - wtf? That's programming incompetence at display, no less.

My mental health is fine. And in case it's disturbed, it's certainly not because of Logic issues.

I only raise my voice because that's the only way to make companies act - and yes, there's some good examples of how this works indeed. Whether it works with Apple could be debated, they usually ignore any user impact.

That has been one of my concerns as well. While I'm usually connected to a larger monitor, I still work on just the internal MBA's 13" often enough so it might become an issue (fwiw, older LP7/8/9 versions were *way* better suited to work on smaller monitors).

And well, Bitwig is another contender I may check out one day.
In general, I don't feel like switching at all, though (27 years of Logic usage under my belt), but in the end, Apple may force me.

I also have a 13” windows laptop in addition to my Macs and both S1 and Cubase drove me nuts on it. Definitely not made for that size screen.

Regarding bugs I’ve mentioned before that the only guaranteed way to make them high priority is for enough users to open cases with Apple. Not on Gearspace.

If not enough people are complaining directly to support, then as far as support is concerned the problem isn’t important enough for a large number of users.

Bitwig and Cubase can’t use AU on Macs, so beware. I can’t be bothered reinstalling everything for VST support. I’m one of those people that always deselects the other formats and if that’s not possible I go delete them…

Ableton can use AU. Of course you may find it’s missing all sorts of other things. But you can make your own in M4L

Sort of the same here, but for the most relevant plugins I usually install everything (but AAX), kinda just in case (and well, I'm also using Wavelab, even if I rarely load plugins in it).

Fwiw, I also wish Apple never bothered to come up with the AU format. It has never proven to be superior or of any help to anyone. All it does is adding an extra burden for developers.

https://xkcd.com/927/

Unfortunately, that pretty much nails it.
If CLAP was around when Apple bought Emagic, things might have turned out differently. But then, Apple being Apple, I'm pretty sure they'd come up with the same nonsense.

Hi Sascha, I am coming in late in the -40db bug. I have seen some live recordings come across my desk with pretty low levels. may I ask what recordings you are seeing at these levels. are they from Live Recording Captures ??? or ??? thx sincerely curious. and I will check this when I get back home from a funeral later this week.

cheers john

In my case those low levels are a result of trying to find a) proper and b) reproducible input levels for amp sim plugins (which I am using quite a bit).

The main thing being that usually most amp sim plugins have their input level sweet spot to deliver "normal" (as intended) resulty quite a bit below 0dB. A lot lower than what would be "conventional recording 101 wisdom" (which would be to get as close to 0dB and then dial back a bit for some headroom).

Also, I want to use my pedalboard every bit the same as I would with physical amps (or modelers), which would include using boosting pedals.

Now, I could as well just say that I'd raise my input gain and dial the level back using the input trim of whatever plugin or an additional gain plugin. Which defenitely works well when just plugging in straight. But it doesn't cover the required headroom for the mentioned boost that may come from my pedalboard.

In addition, the most reliable way to do all this would be to keep my interface's input gain at one fixed setting. Which would be dialing it down all the way to zero (with my Motu M2 at least, but it's valid for many interfaces). That would be the only setting to cover any level from my weakest guitar to the hottest with some boost added (and I defenitely want those differences to be represented in my DI tracks, in the end it's the only way things work as with real amps).

And finally, add to this that I'm using my volume pot quite a bit for cleaning up dirt sounds. Again, just as I would do with real amps.

Hence I will end up with a situation that should cover any input from my weakest guitar /w the volume backed up to my hottest guitar with some additional external boost.
The only way to really do so is to dial my input trim all the way counterclockwise. And even with that setting, I sometimes need to be careful with the external boost as levels might already result in some clipping.

Now, one may or may not believe in that method, but it has been carefully explored by people really in the knows about all that stuff. In case you're interested:
https://thegearforum.com/threads/cal...r-plugins.816/

I will also add that this method is working *extremely* well for what I'm doing, how I'm usually dealing with sounds and what not (and it took me a while to be turned into a "believer", which you may as well be able to see in case you read the thread linked above).

Anyhow, using this way of "calibrating" my levels, it's pretty easy to run into recordings peaking well below -40dB. And why not? It works perfectly well and 24bit audio still delivers plenty of dynamic range below that to never become an issue.

If only it wasn't for Logic. And it's not just that things wouldn't raise visibility issues already due to Logic's pretty bad waveform display in the arrange, no, now it's even that the wavefiles aren't recognized properly, so some functions simply don't work anymore, most annoyingly the waveform zoom. So in case I recorded something with a rather low output guitar and the volume dialed back, there's *zero* visual clues about the waveform anymore.

And it's not even that this would only happen with extreme settings. Even if I would raise my input trim while leaving some rather typical headroom, as soon as you're dialing back a guitar's volume pot, levels peaking below -40dB are easily reached, especially when you try to clean up a pretty well overdriven amp (and that's quite a common way to shape guitar sounds).

Ok, sorry for the lengthy explanation, but as I have already been accused of doing things "wrong", this was possibly necessary to explain that I'm not deliberately failing or trying to create a hypothetic scenario. In fact, I only stumbled across that bug because I took great care to properly calibrate things to work well with various amp sims.

And finally, even if this might only apply to very little folks (Logic users also using amp sims, also following that very calibration method, also using their guitar's volume pot might result in a pretty small group of people), for a DAW this very defenitely is inacceptable behaviour, as it's roughly ignoring around 2/3 of the possible dynamic bandwidth of 24bit audio for some functions.
And it was only introduced with L11. And it hasn't seen a fix throughout 3 (or 4?) updates.
IMO this shouldn't even have happened in the first place - and it's likely a sign of them to either have too little testers overall, too little decent testers or they'd simply be ignoring things. None of which would be appropriate for the flagship DAW owned by the richest company in the world.

Two pages of rambling about ditching Logic in favor of DAW A or B. The same phenomenon was observed on the Sequoia thread when people wasted pages and pages talking about Windows, ARM vs x86, etc, nothing to do with the actual topic.

Guys, I hate to say this, if I (like many) was interested in switching to Cubase, PT, S1 or whatever, I'd subscribe to a thread about that. This is about Logic 11, not a features comparision against other DAWs. This is also not a "I hate Logic 11" thread. There are places for that. How can it be so difficult to stick to such simple common sense rules? Don't waste other people's time, come on.

Now, back to topic: latest Sequoia update seemed to have made LP11 11.2 more stable here. I no longer get that occasional hanging beach ball which is great news.

Peace.

Hi Sascha, thank you kindly for the clear explanation. all info is good. i will take a look at the link. and you mention this has just begun with v11. i always keep a few older version renamed and available. so should be easy to see. and let me say I have always had issues with Logic Waveform drawing. sometimes seeing a flat line while i am hearing good audio, and knowing that i had proper levels going in. Amp Sims, i will be doing some recording using them shortly and will keep all you have mentioned in mind. thx for bringing this to my eyes (and ears).

cheers john

Where can I find these "rules" that you are talking about? And which exactly are the topics that are allowed in a Logic thread?

Hey, just to inform you: This thread isn't about praising Logic 11! Or is it?

Same here. But very obviously, I'd actually like to make use of some features that are added in newer versions.

I mean no disrespect, but I've seen you rumbling about this -40dB bug thing several occasions before. Have you complained directly to Apple? Can't you just get on with it?

Almost 15 years using Logic professionally here - ie I make money from working with Logic, that's what I mean by "professional" in this case - and this issue that you are so angry about has never ever even been noticed here. It's annoying to see long posts about this stuff over and over again.

I get it, you hate this specific thing, but we all know about it by now, shouldn't we just move on? Ball's on Apple's court now, or at least it should. You are not convincing anyone to ditch Logic because you cannot stand this specific bug and claims the whole DAW to be unusable, when it's clearly not an issue to 99.999% of people.

Yeah, my turn moaning about the moaners. Maybe I'm too old for this.

Peace.

I assume you have sent or called apple logic pro support with these issues … i will make a call in to apple support as well to bring this forward in their testing. they do have some good people there. i have been a beta tester for another DAW and understand the more info they can get helps !!! so, lets all help quash this !! Real Waveform drawing for us, all the way down to the lowest levels.

and Yes Yes … using the cool new features is what we all would like to see !!!

cheers john

Of course. More than once.

No.

Feel free to either skip all my posts or just put me on ignore. Problem solved.

Dude, just stop.

You do realise that your fixation on this bug makes you appear to be more than a little demented? You're not achieving anything other than irritating other members and clogging up the topic. There's nothing constructive coming from your continual posts about this, it just looks a personal gripe.
You honestly won’t convince anyone to stop using LP11 just because some minor bug really annoys you, because most don’t come across it and care even less.
You really should just move to Pro Tools or Cubase - problem solved.

I'm not fixated on that bug alone at all. It's even provable. Look at post 183. Nothing about that bug. Look at post 199. Nothing about that bug.
Those were the two relevant "complaining" posts of mine during the last weeks. The rest were merely answers to others.
I'd rather check your reading skills before making unfounded accusations.

please just stop logging in

I feel like I've made this even worse by complaining about how much off topic every single thread seems to go these days. I'm unsubscribing from this particular one, because I honestly don't have the energy to bother anymore.

I like the poster in #195 would seriously encourage you to try to move to Pro Tools. As long as you don’t jump the gun and jump the gun and move to the latest Mac OS before they approve it, problems are very little and they have very solid support. Most of the problems actually end of being third party plugins…because even though they might improve a new OS a third party plugin in you use might Not. We have 4 recording studios and a lab all running Pro Tools flawlessly. And as far as the yearly cost it really isn’t much more than the average DAW. If you buy a perpetual, you don’t have to upgrade every year…just like every other Daw and if you do a subscription all you need is the studio version $299 a year or artist version $99 a year. And then each year they do a 30% off (they just had that). Another option is digital performer which is similar to Pro Tools in many ways - I used to use it many years ago…it is a very nice Daw - in fact if you purchase one of motu’s interfaces they give you the kite version for free. DP is excellent software. It really depends upon the music you make too and budget you have. They were running a special over the holidays where if you bought Mbox studio you got a perpetual license of Pro Tools free which was amazing. It looks like Thomann may still have some for $599. You could check there. Just some ideas…

First off: Learn to quote properly. The post you've quoted has absolutely nothing to do with your reply.

And then, as said, use the ignore function.

You win. I’m just going to go back to setting my input levels properly and hitting record. Have a BLESSED day sir

thank you .. this was just getting old to watch .. now lets get back to trying to help each other fix issues ...

back near my rig now and will try to check some things on these waveforms ...

cheers john