Software tools I have avaiallable:

-Reaper
-Audacity

Is there a way (perhaps a plugin) to play a M/S stereo track (actual mid-side with mid on left channel, and side on right channel) and have a control that adjusts the width ONLY, and NOT also the loudness. IOW, a control that would vary the ratio of M to S, and not the absolute level of either. I'd like to be able to vary the width dynamically, in realtime, while playing the track-- but not have the volume of the track change.

I have Voxengo MSED, but it seems to me that I first have to apply it to my MS track to "decode" it to LR. Then, give a listen and, if I don't like it, I have to rerun MSED to "encode" it back to MS, change the level knobs (by guessing), and then rerun MSED to "decode" it back to LR. Then listen again.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

What I would like to do is listen to the MS tracks (with the plugin dynamically decoding on-the-fly, and while listening, I would like to be able to adjust the width (i.e. M/S ratio), with no change to the volume level. When I get it where I like it, THEN I want to decode the track to LR. (Just do the decode once.)

How can I do this?

I admit to being ignorant. It's only been the last year, or so, that I have started working with M/S. I really like it, but it is time consuming to determine where the mid and side levels should be set.

Thank you for any comments.

regards,

DG

Reaper has a simple routing plugin that will take a mono source (the side mic) and output it as L+ R- in real-time. Screenshot attached with correct settings.

From there, you can play with the channel faders to get the ratio correct.

Chris

MSED will do what you want already: it decodes as you play, and adjusting the side or mid level with the right mouse button held down makes the inverse change to the other variable. No need for the elaborate procedure you set out!

Cheers,

Roland

I use the Waves S1 Stereo Shuffler for this requirement. It's a very convenient plugin; I use is in every mix that has mid-side/Blumlein.

The 'Width' slider changes the the angle of the triangle to give you a visual impression. It's changing the relative volume of the mid versus the side. Read up on this; you may find it worth buying.

MS (or Blumlein, or any coincident array) is all about level difference - there is virtually no time of arrival difference - so adjusting the level of one signal relative to the other is always required to change the stereo image. But maybe I don't understand what you're asking... FWIW, I use Voxengo MSED but I used to configure MS processing 'old school' in the DAW: copy and invert the S channel and pan the resulting S channels left and right so that you have 3 faders controlling the stereo output. It's functionally the same as the plug-in but maybe it helps with 'visualizing' what you are doing with the sound stage?

There are some MS decoders that include a selection for constant power. (Metric Halo has this in their interface DSP). I don’t know which native plugins have this feature.

As I said above, the OP's current MS plugin - Voxengo MSED - does this anyway: the OP doesn't need anything additional!

R

Much as it is nice for all of us to be thanked in advance (!), it would be interesting to hear whether you have now got to grips with MSED, which can do what you describe as needing. If you haven't come across it, there is a useful manual for the plugin.

Cheers,

Roland

Thank you, all for your helpful comments.

I didn't want to be boorish by posting possibly uninteresting comments on my continuing encounter with this material.

Roland,

I did get Voxengo MSED, and it works fine. But, I have not found a way, yet, to use it "live", in Audacity. (I will explore it in Reaper after I get this current project out the door. So, maybe it functions differently in Reaper than it does in Audacity. I just don't know, yet.)

The way I am finding it to work is just like all the other "effects" in Audacity. I can not use it live/dynamically/realtime in Audacity. By that, I mean that I can select a track, set the gain and width knobs, and then hit "apply". Audacity will then process the entire track with those settings, to produce a new processed track.

What I would like is to be able to click "play" for a M/S track, and then be able to adjust the width dynamically (while the track is playing). That way I can hear the width tweaking in real time (and also independent of volume changes). I can also use the mute buttons to switch back-and-forth between a previously processed track and the currently playing track, and can thus compare, and tweak the knobs on-the-fly.

The way I currently perceive I need to proceed (in Audacity) is to process the track, which is then static, and then play the track (with its baked in settings) and compare to tracks that are the product of previous MSED processing (with previous knob settings).

I do not know how to use MSED to play a M/S track with the ability to adjust width (ratio of mid to side) while the track is playing. In my ignorance, I can only decode the track, and then go back and play it (with the settings that were baked in when the track was processed).

DG

P.S. Although it appears to me that Reaper will be more desirable, there is one thing I like about Audacity. That is the ability to set labels, and then, when exporting, have Audacity create a separate wav file for each labeled portion of the track. This speeds up CD creation. (I still find CDs useful.) Perhaps, Reaper can do this, too. I will explore whether that is possible. But, after I get the current project finished.

Ah, that is very odd: I had no idea that the MSED plugin could work differently in Audacity. It certainly works fine in Reaper and can do exactly what you want there. Good luck with it all.

Cheers,

Roland

Audacity is the wrong software for what you are trying to do. I can tell you this because I tried long ago and then started using Reaper. I still use Audacity for simple things like transcribing LPs. Reaper will do everything you want, including rendering individual tracks from markers in the main project. It will take you a bit more effort to 'learn' Reaper but it will be worth it (and there is lots of support on the Cockos forums and Kenny Gioia's YouTubes). Good luck.

"Ah, that is very odd: I had no idea that the MSED plugin could work differently in Audacity."

Maybe it doesn't. That is, maybe it works the same, but I have something misconfigured. What makes me think that is the screenshot in the following link:

https://forum.audacityteam.org/t/mse...-voxengo/46375

Note that the Voxengo MSED plugin displayed there has some transport buttons at the bottom. This suggests (to me) that one could click "play", and expect MSED to operate on the current track, and that one could tweak the knobs while it was playing.

When I bring up the MSED from the "Effect" menu, there are no transport controls at the bottom. The UI looks the same, otherwise, but I can't do anything except apply the operation to the current track, or cancel out. I can't play the current track, dynamically. So, I must have something misconfigured.

"Audacity is the wrong software for what you are trying to do."

After years of using Audacity on my projects, I now think you are right.

Especially because I have noticed a large decline in "support" from anyone Audacity developers. I have only had occasion to attempt to get help from their forum a handful of times, over the years-- but, in the past couple of years, I find I can no longer get any answers, and bugs have increased. For example, I'm experiencing crashes upon exiting Audacity (starting when I updated to the current version), but (even when reporting the error number and the crash message) can't even get acknowledgement that there is a problem. I note that others have posted about this, too, but-- no explanation or fix. Just on the face of it, the Reaper community seems to be more responsive.

Also, Audacity behavior has changed, a bit, in the last couple years. It is now too easy to lose track selections (they don't "stick" like they used to) or synchronicity. (Almost nothing worse than working for a while, and then discovering that tracks that were "off the screen at the bottom" were de-synced, and now I have track material of different lengths, for the same concert.

Anyway, I now think Audacity is better suited to creating content, rather than working with (extended-- like an hour and a half) material I have recorded from a concert and want to load in and edit, mix, master, and "print" to CD.

DG

MSED in Reaper (and I assume elsewhere) doesn't have or need transport buttons: you just use those in the DAW and play around with the variables in MSED (or other plugins) as the tracks play (or play a repeating short section if you want).

Cheers,

Roland

It sounds like the ideal would be that you’d like to play the track with MSED or Waves SI Imager or similar width manipulation tool (there’s also one built in to Reaper’s plug in collection, as shown above) engaged, and then vary the width manually while the track plays, and to record your width manipulation also, so it’s baked in as an effect ?

Reaper can do this…if you look up ‘writing automation’ in Kenny Gioia’s ‘Reaper Mania’ videos, or search for the issue in the Reaper forums …and perhaps post it as a query if you find it’s not already been discussed there. You’ll find the Reaper forums are both friendly and helpful !

I think the answer to your question is, "Yes". Except for, possibly, recording my width manipulation. I want to play the track and manipulate the width as you describe. When I have the width established to my preference, I then want to render a new track (that is, a new L/R track derived from the M/S track), with that width "baked in". I don't need the history of the "knob twirling" I performed to get to the desired setting.

DG

The reason for recording your width variation moves would simply be so that you can sit back and listen critically to your manipulation and make notes/observations…..without having to be engaged with your mouse or control surface plus eyes and ears, as you adjust and observe the parameters in real time. You’ll be recording your parameter movements so you can listen to them purely as a ‘critical observer’

The main factors you’ll want to focus on are the various write/read modes in Reaper, and the manual plus tutorial videos will help you a lot with this (check out links I’ll add below)

https://dlz.reaper.fm/userguide/ReaperUserGuide727c.pdf

In the 3rd column on the right, in the link below, click on the word ‘Automation’ :

https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php

Ahhh... of course... good thought.

The possibilities with Reaper are amazing and automation is a powerful tool, but I have never tried what @ studer58 suggests. I tend to keep it simple and I usually just open the MSED fx window in a corner of the display and twiddle as I listen, leaving the width where it sounds right. Sometimes the goniometer is helpful to confirm what you think you are hearing (but one has to take care that the eyes don't trump the ears!).