Quantcast
Better than Waves S1? - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Better than Waves S1?
Old 22nd April 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Better than Waves S1?

I'm not a fan of Waves plugins but I've used the S1 imager and, though it wasn't clean enough for mastering I thought it was OK for other uses.

Are there any good VST shuffling imager plugins that are better or equal to Waves S1? I wish Aleksey at Voxengo made one because most of his stuff is sonically great and the prices are good too.
Old 22nd April 2010
  #2
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
The shuffler includes assymetry and rotation, which I personally haven't seen anywhere else. But for stereo width, and for elliptical style EQing, I would recommend try out some of the brainworx stuff, Mono maker does elliptical EQ, and stereo width does exactly what it says. Those features can be found in bx_control, and bx_digital which also contains a full blown M/S Mastering grade EQ that sounds mind-blowing!
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karim Sinno ➑️
The shuffler includes assymetry and rotation, which I personally haven't seen anywhere else. But for stereo width, and for elliptical style EQing, I would recommend try out some of the brainworx stuff, Mono maker does elliptical EQ, and stereo width does exactly what it says. Those features can be found in bx_control, and bx_digital which also contains a full blown M/S Mastering grade EQ that sounds mind-blowing!
Karim, I hadn't thought of elliptical EQ. All their plugs look really interesting, and designed for mastering! Thanks.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
DistortingJack's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Sonalksis - Quality Digital Audio Software
I like this one.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I use the imaging features on alot of my master buss operations. And their bx_digital on masters! Wouldn't want to part with them ever!
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #6
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack ➑️
+1 to the Sonalksis StereoTools
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The Sonalksis plug looks good but nothing I see on the website mentions Blumlein shuffling. When Blumlein invented the algorithm he had a specific issue in mind related to coincident and near-coincident minimal mic arrays used for ensemble recording. He, of course, also invented the Blumlein figure-8 pattern that's popular in stereo ribbon mics. His shuffler works only on frequencies below 700Hz.

Does anyone know if Sonalksis stereo tool has a Blumlein shuffler?
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #8
Company Rep
 
DrDeltaM's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
DrMS?
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM ➑️
DrMS?
I find it interesting that products which could compete head-to-head with the Waves S1 don't make any attempt to do so. Blumlein is an algorithm that's worth implementing and no one but Waves, to my knowledge, says they support "Blumlein shuffling."

It guess Blumlein shuffling could also be nothing more than MS or Elliptical technique, by a different name, and I haven't learned it yet. I often have outbreaks of ignorance.

Bottom line is I'm working with recording techniques that might benefit from Blumlein shuffling and I know it only because I used the Waves S1 some years ago in the dreaded DirectX format. I won't go there again, but I would use a Waves S1 in VST if it was truly mastering grade for high resolution acoustic recordings. The old DX plug had the right effect but the implementation was not worthy, IMO, of being in a quality mastering chain.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #10
Company Rep
 
DrDeltaM's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
I find it interesting that products which could compete head-to-head with Waves on S1 don't even make any attempt to do so. Blumlein is an algorithm that's worth implementing and no one but Waves, to my knowledge, says they support "Blumlein shuffling."

It could also be that Blumlein shuffling is really nothing more than MS or Elliptical technique by a different name?

Bottom line is I'm working with recording techniques that might benefit from Blumlein shuffling and I know it only because I used the Waves S1 some years ago in the dreaded DirectX format. I won't go there again, but I would use a Waves S1 in VST if it was truly mastering grade for high resolution acoustic recordings. The old DX plug had the right effect but the implementation was not worthy, IMO, of being in a quality mastering chain.
Actually I never developed DrMS with the idea of it becoming a competitor to some other products on the market. I just had a concept to expand the possibilities of MS, and didn't find anything like it on the market, so decided to develope it myself. The feature-set is mainly a result of my personal wishlist for a stereotool.

A Blumlein shuffler is not the same as an elliptic EQ (which is a Side HPF). A full description can be found here:
Technical Crew Dictionary - blumlein shuffler

Such functionality was never taken in mind with DrMS, as Blumlein shuffling directly relates to a very specific microphone placement technique, while DrMS is mainly meant as a mixing and mastering tool for any stereo-source, regardless of how it was recorded.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Matthew, your comments are refreshingly honest and clear. I wish one of you stereo field guys, though, would put a Blumlein algorithm in your product. I anticipate a renaissance and don't want one vendor to have a monopoly on it. It is, after all, in the public domain.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Let me add that many people use spaced omnis for main acoustic pickup. The Blumlein technique works with various AB spacings, not just 20cm which was a specification for Jecklin disks. It also works for ORTF and other near-coincident arrays.

There is an opportunity here and someone besides Waves should make a product!
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Jesse Graffam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
Blumlein is an algorithm that's worth implementing and no one but Waves, to my knowledge, says they support "Blumlein shuffling."

It guess Blumlein shuffling could also be nothing more than MS or Elliptical technique, by a different name, and I haven't learned it yet. I often have outbreaks of ignorance.
http://i.imgur.com/44yzx.gif

There ya go. Figure 5 of British patent 34,657, showing "the two outputs from the sum and difference arrangement are modified in order to obtain subsequently the desired sound effects and one convenient circuit arrangement for effecting this".

Full patent here:
482,740
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #14
Company Rep
 
DrDeltaM's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Some sites define Blumlein shuffling simply as:
custom EQ employed to augment the low-frequency content of the difference information in a stereo signal
(Halfway page Mixguides Microphones Decca Tree Microphone techniques with Decca Tree Microphone Configuration )

If it's just that, it's quite easy to implement.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Jesse Graffam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM ➑️
Some sites define Blumlein shuffling simply as:
custom EQ employed to augment the low-frequency content of the difference information in a stereo signal
(Halfway page Mixguides Microphones Decca Tree Microphone techniques with Decca Tree Microphone Configuration )

If it's just that, it's quite easy to implement.
DrMS can do that with the filters, from what I remember of my short demo. And basically any MS/Sum-Difference EQ.

One good thing (of many) to learn from the patent...
Quote:
It has been stated that the frequency at which the brain changes over from phase-to intensity-discrimination occurs at above 700 [Hz] but is must be understood that this may vary within quite wide limits in difference circumstances and from person to person, and that in any case the transference is not sudden or discontinuous but there is considerable overlap of the two phenomena so that over a considerable frequency range differences of both phase and intensity will to some extent have an effect in determining the sense of direction experienced.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
rumleymusic's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Algorithmix K-Stereo?
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic ➑️
Algorithmix K-Stereo?
Not according to the website. It looks awesome, but has no Blumlein shuffler.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Jesse Graffam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
Not according to the website. It looks awesome, but has no Blumlein shuffler.
Actually, if the "HC" (low-pass corner frequency) filtering is effecting the changes to "S" (side), then with a "proper" HC setting it does indeed have ~ a Blumlein "shuffler".

They do have an email... [email protected]
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam ➑️
Actually, if the "HC" (low-pass corner frequency) filtering is effecting the changes to "S" (side), then with a "proper" HC setting it does indeed have ~ a Blumlein "shuffler".

They do have an email... [email protected]
Jesse, I sent an inquiry. I'll report back when/if I hear from them. Thanks.
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #20
Company Rep
 
DrDeltaM's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam ➑️
DrMS can do that with the filters, from what I remember of my short demo. And basically any MS/Sum-Difference EQ.
True, only if a very specific special curve is required it would be harder, but I'm not sure if that's the case for Blumlein Shuffling?
Old 23rd April 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
.... I've used the S1 imager and, though it wasn't clean enough for mastering ...
What do you mean with "not clean enough"

It just in- or decreases the S-Signal, how can such a process not be clean??
just askin
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I wanted DrMS but paypal doesn't take my CC from Lebanon. I always try to mix wide to give space for everything,and I read the interview with Dylan Dresdow using Dr.MS and I though I'd give it a try, but no cigar :( I'll have to figure out some way to get it. I don't like S-1 personally, it can get things out of phase pretty easily, resulting in a horrible non-mono-compatible mix
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
macc's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Graffam ➑️
One good thing (of many) to learn from the patent...
Very good stuff to know indeed - thanks!
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #24
Company Rep
 
DrDeltaM's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karim Sinno ➑️
I wanted DrMS but paypal doesn't take my CC from Lebanon. I always try to mix wide to give space for everything,and I read the interview with Dylan Dresdow using Dr.MS and I though I'd give it a try, but no cigar :( I'll have to figure out some way to get it. I don't like S-1 personally, it can get things out of phase pretty easily, resulting in a horrible non-mono-compatible mix
Might have a solution for you as I just started setting up dealers. You can buy an iLok License Redeem code from a dealer that you can enter in your iLok.com account to get the DrMS License posted to your account.

Alto Music is the first to offer this (it's not even on their website yet, but they did sell DrMS already), ask for Thomas there. They probably can take your CC without issues.
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
lowland's Avatar
 
Verified Member
16 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by macc ➑️
Very good stuff to know indeed - thanks!
Blumlein was an extraordinary talent - I had no idea he died so young or the circumstances until I saw this just now:

Alan Blumlein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's another (more recent) pioneer who built on some of Blumlein's work:

Michael Gerzon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm still learning and don't write plugins; I just record acoustic music using some techniques that Blumlein understood very well.

What I believe is that Blumlein's shuffler converts time difference information (from near-coincident mic techniques) into intensity information so that the phase and localization are better for frequencies below ~700.

The importance of this algorithm, for me, is that it uses a natural psycho-acoustic phenomenon to "correct" or re-balance recordings made with mic techniques that have a well-known shortcoming relative to those frequencies. Rather than being an "effect," I see it as a corrective, like EQ can re-balance a mic that has known spectral imperfections.
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Jesse Graffam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
What I believe is that Blumlein's shuffler converts time difference information (from near-coincident mic techniques) into intensity information so that the phase and localization are better for frequencies below ~700.

The importance of this algorithm, for me, is that it uses a natural psycho-acoustic phenomenon to "correct" or re-balance recordings made with mic techniques that have a well-known shortcoming relative to those frequencies. Rather than being an "effect," I see it as a corrective, like EQ can re-balance a mic that has known spectral imperfections.
It's not an algorithm at all... I don't know what Waves marketing you've been subjected to, but it was just a load of... fertilizer. I even posted the patent and the circuit of the shuffler above. It is nothing more than a slow low-pass around 700 hZ with adjustable gain... a difference signal used to turn up or down the L minus R (aka side) signal under 700 hZ.
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
rumleymusic's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
It's not an algorithm at all... I don't know what Waves marketing you've been subjected to, but it was just a load of... fertilizer. I even posted the patent and the circuit of the shuffler above. It is nothing more than a slow low-pass around 700 hZ with adjustable gain... a difference signal used to turn up or down the L minus R (aka side) signal under 700 hZ.
I think you are right about the waves algorithm. It is just a shelf filter shuffler (the circuit you posted) and not a true Blumlein shuffler, which is designed to convert phase differences into amplitude differences. There is an interesting AES article on the subject that explains the difference.
"Applications of Blumlein Shuffling to Stereo Microphone Techniques"
Old 23rd April 2010
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Franco's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
"Better than Waves S1?"

My own M/S Matrix and the ability to insert all sorts of things on the mid / side channel independently; sometimes even a UAD Dimension D on the Side channel for example can get me some pretty cool "width".
Old 23rd April 2010 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Table Of Tone's Avatar
 
Verified Member
8 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Anything else is better than S1!
S1 = Ka Ka!
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 36 views: 22811
Avatar for Andrew Klimek
Andrew Klimek 14th August 2014
replies: 66 views: 19650
Avatar for DrDeltaM
DrDeltaM 19th December 2009
replies: 263 views: 25644
Avatar for Seltsam
Seltsam 27th February 2013
replies: 160 views: 27546
Avatar for GBP
GBP 2 days ago
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump