My clients know straight up what I deliver before they book, i have never had a artist say: sorry but we are looking for ITB mixing only !!!!!
If that should happen i would send them to some more local studios that do ITB, mostly likey they would come running back, I lose them and get them back all the time, not because of ITB or OTB.
Sorry i see a different direction, i see analog consoles coming back, maybe not tape machines, you cannot get ITB tone like you can out of a SSL Harrison, Neve, Neotek, API etc

I wouldn't be so sure, I had an API console and proffered the GSR.. but I could live without both and have something like an apogee symphony / ULN8.

These multi-platinum, multi grammy ITB mixers can't be wrong? Or are you saying they are? Because if they are I don't want to be right!

No not at all, do what brings the best out in you as a enigneer, a monitor keyboard and a mouse does not do it for me, that would be like having a blowup doll vs a real lady.
I'm OTB or OTD as in out the door.

What bugs me as i said in the past, the eq, compressor and effects dont get it done ITB, they sound small, thin, empty.
Also why so many guys wanting to stick a piece of hardware on the end of the mix, hardware ?, tape machines, etc!

Look at it this way, weather you are using hardware as in a console, rack gear, 500 series etc to track it or mix you are still using "gear"!!!!
I like using gear pre and post.
So with that said gear is here to stay, don't tell me one day we will use all USB or FW mics to record with straight into a convertor, if so you may have a great song but it lack just about everything.

Let me ask this, if total recall/automation was not ITB would you still demand ITB ? Please don't use the words easier, faster.
Anything great never came on a silver platter or
less expensive.

One last note, if mixing ITB is the way forward, why not have a computer, monitor, keyboard, mouse and break out box for live sound instead of digital consoles that are way bigger than the analog ones. I saw one the other night at the Diana Krall concert, looked more like a spaceship than a console, looked fake and plastic looking.
Btw they were using maybe 12 mics at most, 4 piece act.

Two products from Slate Digital, Virtual Console Collection and Virtual Tape Machine, have made in the box mixing much easier. If you haven't tried those plugins yet you should. Mixes come together with either/or but when combined mixes come alive and you have to use less EQ/compression than without those plugins on...it's hard to describe.

You can get Harrison sound, at least, ITB. See Harrison Mixbus

The console section is smooth, and uses the actual Harrison DSP code used in Harrison's digital consoles. Not analog, but still the 'Harrison' sound.

Hmmmmmm, interesting..

If this is possible since those all important transformers and opamps deliver so much, then guitar amp makers needs to get off there ass and make me a plug that sounds just like my vintage Marshall down to the specs.

I find the title of this thread to be misleading; "The Reason Most ITB mixes don’t Sound as good as Analog mixes". The real reason they don't sound as good is they can't given the laundry list of sonic advantages analog mixes have. Simply recording digital and not clipping is still not going to make is sound like a full fledged analog mix. It's just one less digital problem to deal with.

Yes sir, so true.

Analog rules

analog does not rule
digital does not rule
good music does!

+1!

Our goal as engineers though is to enhance that good music to the extent we can. Not tracking as hot as some people have taught us is one way to not fall victim to poor recordings.

As far as the sonic advantages of analog, make sure you're not comparing apples to oranges. A lot of newer gear is designed to be transparent/clean which doesn't always translate to "good". This is where character/colored (imperfect, on paper) preamps come into play.

The problem isn't digital recording, it's recording to digital incorrectly. Which is what this thread addresses. Or moreso, the side effects to tracking/mixing with too hot of a signal so people are aware of what's going on. Rules are meant to be broken, of course, so if you want the effect of analog saturation or digital distortion you can do that. But a lot of people may not have known that they are losing punch/openess to their sound by recording and mixing too loud.

The last 4 albums I tracked I mixed ITB as well as using outboard gear. You can see my studio, gear - digital and analog and some credits here: Phoenix AZ Recording Studio | Invincible Music I had mixed entirely in the box for 4 years straight, so I am no stranger to how to get the best out of the ITB medium. The different songs 2 versions were auditioned by artists as well as professionals in the music business (distributors and some other producers) and in all case the analog mixes easily won.

From my extensive experience and tests, even without digital distortion and many of the best plugs available, ITB mixes are simply inferior - plain and simple with only the occasional hip hop song to be the exception to the rule. So for now and probably to a long time to come, the artist I work with will have the many advantages of analog along with few advantages of digital as I am using a hybrid setup. The mixes will not be ITB unless 100% recall is needed. I do have a few clients that need 100% recall months after a project is completed so this of course will change my workflow to ITB mixes.

A good song is always gonna stand tall. But look at Zeppelin's "In Through The Out Door" some great songs on it, but i mainly love the recording of the CD.
Robert Plant did "Now and Zen" again some really good songs but I cannot get into listening to that CD, if digital ever stood out the CD makes the top shelf...ouch.

It doesn't matter if its analog or digital, only that the music is easy listening. Studies have shown and scholars maintain that the stats and scientific constitution of easy listening music directly and proportionally inversely relates to the frequencies of supersonic oscillators in the vast minority of reverse triple blind deaf and dumb clinical studies.

Great Thread. Just to clarify Bob. Do you refer to tracking at -10, or after mixing say for instance a vocal track peaking at -10? ITB

Sorry if its a noobish question.

I try to not peak over -10 very often while tracking or -6 when I mix back into ProTools by routing my mix buss to a stereo track. Since we can't know exactly what the level is going to be, I always aim at levels that are too low rather than risk being too high. If I'm tracking with compression, I'll take a parallel flat track because I track old-old school which is blazing fast live with no headphones and minimal overdubs.

Obviously this wouldn't work recording most bands when the best way is to build a mix from the beginning that everyone can relate to during a Les Paul memorial overdub party.

CD quality versus analog is probably one of the least among very many parameters that caused the difference in popularity of the two albums, if at all. The Zeppelin as a super popular band (or commercial brand for that matter), the fashion of the day, the guitar of Jimmy Page are some much more defining parameters that quickly come to my mind. And that is only if we presume the quality of music is just equal between the two records (based on common taste). In fact I can strongly doubt medium had really any considerable role to play there...

Then you have not listened to Robert Plant's "Now and Zen" It was one of the first ITB mixes that "I" ever heard.

Re ITB-mixing sonically inferior...people find ways around it though, like with heavily colouring/pre-processing individual tracks...the "mixing" then almost becomes just some sort of stem-blending.

OMG.. What is this NooB forum.. Next

Yes, that is a great start. Especially with the gear you mention. Have fun and make good music!

Why is gain string even a concern . Just turn down don't let it get anywhere near within 10db of clipping on plugs and don't track hot. Seems a bit day one to me.
The day I used protools I figured out if I adjusted the first plug it helped gain staging. Except I didn't call it gain staging I called it don't clip dumb a*s.


I think hardware is just the better sounding tool real colourful if thats you thing or clean as well. ITB is great for what it does automation some plugs not EQ or dynamics except noise gate. Editing but if I had it my way everything would get real hardware EQ and comps. Iv never tried but to me it doesn't seem to matter if you actually mix as in fader levels OTB just get it in the console eq it comp it what ever and mix fader levels ITB this way you get all the tone from your OTB hardware with all the benefits of ITB mixing a true hybrid rig.
Set the SSL to unity and mix ITB . Seems a waist but its really just the sound you want maybe the panning so setting levels OTB doesn't make much sense to me. I love faders and I have them with my C24 that good enough for me.

You can get technical and a Minus sign. -18dBfs etc. I try and mix around there as it is how the UAD plug ins are optimal.

for a guy that uses SSL a lot, you seem to be forgetting that somewhere between + 14 and +25...there can be an incredible sweet spot on certain types of mixes.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this premise...I would say stay out of the red on your plugs and mix and you are fine.

seems like you think it's as cut and dry as that. It isn't. It TTALLY depends on the workflow. i.e. if you want to hand off a project that rough mixes itself with faders at zero...or whether you are going hard for sonics and weird gain structure is part of the thing you are going for.

THER IS NO "I guess I had it right all along" buddy.

Yep. I definitely had it right the first time.

IT DEPENDS ON YOUR WORKFLOW....no diagram necessary. Don't clip on the way in, don't clip your plugs and don't clip on the way out.

Pretty simple.

Use the diagram you made for a recording as suggested in this thread. See how you like the end result. That's all.

Wasn't there a link for a scale equivalents chart posted back somewhere within these 150 pages..?
Seems to me many instruments/track's averages are quite a bit more than six dB below peak. -10dBfs peak, is more apt to place your nominal target around -20 -- -24 or so.
http://hux.com.au/Soapbox%20Items/Wo...0Reference.pdf
This is one I saved and use for a ref.