Everyone all the time is/was talking about NS-10's - just everywhere, but couple weeks ago Warren Huart on Produce like a pro youtube said that there are WAY better flat monitors right now to learn the mix/teach your ears what to hear and You don't have to go old school with those NS-10's or CLA-10's.

What is Your opinion?

Is it still important to teach yourself on the midrange speakers or Warren is right and for someone "new and fresh" it doesn't make any sense anymore?

NS-10s happened completely by accident. The story roughly goes like this:
Bob Clearmountain wanted a set of monitors light enough and small enough to carry by hand, so he could go from studio to studio and bring his monitors with him if needed. This provided him with a reasonably consistent mixing sound while working in otherwise very different studios. The NS-10s were not even designed for studios. They were home audio speakers.

Over time, legends developed around how they make your mixes translate better. Maybe so, maybe no. Likely depends on the engineer and source material. Plenty of great and terrible mixes have been made with and without NS10s.

The "NS10" of today is the iPhone. Some engineers literally mix to an iPhone.

My belief is that mixing on NS10s or other frequency-starved, frequency-odd playback systems is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to produce mistake-free mixes. The evidence supports this.

I used to own NS10s. Sold them. Used to own an Avantone. Sold it.

Dunno who’s right. Never had NS10s. I understand why they are a useful tool. Been in studios with them and they sound like a$$, but you can mix on anything once you learn how they translate in the real world.

My first pair of monitors that help me listen better were Dynaudio BM6a. Still love them, still have them.

my opinion is that with all the information out there, there is a lot of misinformation, truisms and old wive's tales. Seek out the counterpoint to anything you find online. Especially when you find it a lot.

The whole "legendary" gear thing is but just one example. NS-10's are not actually "legendary gear"; they are as gearstudent said, an accident of history.

it didn't even make sense back then. It was just a convenience for people who moved from studio to studio. And a big helping of follow-the-leader-ism for the guy whose skill mixed a lot of hit records.

In a way it's kind of weird that Warren Huart even has to make a video telling self-recording musicians they don't 'need' NS-10s to make good mixes. Much less to "learn how to mix". Back in the day, a commercial studio might feel they 'need' them because freelancers and producers booking their studio were expecting to see them there.

Of course, you are now reading about (and watching a YouTube about) how they are not important, but at least you are finally hearing the other side. But that other side has been around a long time.

Sure, some people love them, but just as many people hate them. I never used NS-10s myself until I got a job in a studio that had them as their only nearfields. I got used to them, but I still don't think they are a 'necessary' item. I certainly would never want them as my only monitors. You know how you are supposed to judge the low end on NS-10s? You touch your fingertips to the cone of the woofer. That's not a punchline. That's the actual advice.

For beginners?

NS10s have never been for beginners .. they sound quite bad and you really need to know what you're doing with them, have some experience, so you don't over compensate and ruin your mixes by using them.

People who love them , love them after they're already experienced and know how music sounds through them ..

Inexperienced newbees may *think* NS10s are what the pros use, so they must get them first .. to look like a pro, but that's all.

Newbees, more than most, need to be able to hear full range so they get to know what changes they make actually sound like across the whole frequency range, or how their mic techniques sound etc etc. IMO anyway..

And I'd guess Warren Huart has always given the same advice ... That there are much better monitors out there for the money.

That said, back in the day when my friends were finding gear to make music with, ns615s (exactly the same as ns10s but for the home) could be found for £20 at car boot sales, along with AR 18s or Heybrook HB1s , the other popular hifi speakers used for monitoring, so they could also be the poor person's monitor.. This the mid/late 90s. My friends kept trying ns615s but kept selling them on for profit for those who wanted ns10s .. never liking them.

I found that with a good amp NS10s sound better than most studio monitors under $2000 range.

Sure, they don't have thick bass but you can compensate for that with good headphones.

To me all studio monitors sound f-ing weird and make no sense, the cheap ones (all the ones I tried under $2000 at which point I stopped trying) have no midrange and that's the only thing that matters. I use my (technically spectacular but semi-useless in real life) Neumanns as 2nd reference for things like low end and resonance hunting, but I mix 99% on NS10s.

For production studio monitors are more fun as they always sound sweet and nice. But mixing is the whole different story.

Yep.

It all about the transient response.

But I also agree there’s much better speakers available now, and it’s foolish to go chasing a standard that’s no longer in production.

The iPhone is the modern day grot box, not the modern day ns10.

I like the kurzweil ks40a speakers. They sound nice. Will force your hand when you make a mistake. Are affordable. Do translate.

But it kind of still is, in the shape of CLA10a.

Speakers are getting better, and there are options, but if you're not in a mood to keep trying/buying/selling/returning speakers to no end to find one that does exact same job, and just want to work, NS/CLA seem like an easy "one-and-done" choice.

Even Bob Clearmountain says that the only reason people copied him with the NS10s is because he happened to have a pair when interviewed .. and that interview happened because he was having a string of hits at the time .

By the time he was pictured with them and people started copying, he had already moved on from them ...

Now, the OP has not mentioned what work they would be using them for ..

If they are tracking (or producing) you can't hear what youre doing on such a bass-light pair of monitors..

If they're mixing, and tracking has been dealt with , the midrange mixing theory is fine .. but good group delay is not exclusive to ns10s .

Yes, I know plenty of people these days who will now check their mixes on the phone. Usually for one pass at the very end of mixing.

I don't know anyone who does their mix on a phone. In fact, I find it hilarious - picturing an engineer sitting there with his monitors off, and the iPhone sitting on the table playing the mix. Hmm, needs a little more small room reverb on the hi-hat.

The CLA ones..I'm not 100% sure. Not heard them myself; those that have say they're not "the same". And yes - in that "small monitors, no real sub" category, I can see why they might be as useful as a small pair of KRKs or something. Or as a 2nd pair. I just think there are better full range monitors now that also have great midrange. I've always thought the Unity Audio Rocks have a similar midrange presentation along with better bass response, and the Amphions too.

Or just if you've always used them and been used to them!

It's the people aspiring to NS10s (and then adding a sub) I don't get. It's usually people who've never used them either.

I don't think that has a lot of basis in fact.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story

I believe this to be better researched and more accurate anecdotally?

I don't know when Bob might have "moved on" but the most up to date info on MixThis says he's got MSP7s doing a similar job. I don't think they were launched until much later?

I agree, it's just historically that's why they appealed (and were used), not just because some name engineer had them.

Right! I don't generally bother, but I do pump it to a boom box in the next room and do a car check too..if those things work, iphones usually work too..!

It's never "the same"! And that's probably part of the reason why these things become the 'aspirational' gear. It has to be discontinued or replaced by an inferior model. Like the older SM7s and 421s.

The only legitimate excuse as far as I am concerned. Coming to NS-10s (very) late, I am kind of "eh" about them.

I think we have to be careful not talk as if we "mix on" these things. Walking out to the car with a burned CD is not the same thing as bringing your laptop into the car and sitting there mixing in the car. Most engineers do not perch their iPhone on the console face up and adjust the faders to what is coming out of the phone's speaker.

It seems comical to me, but I have seen posts from newbies who apparently have gotten these ideas and are actually trying them.

I've got a pair of 80's NS-10s that look as bad as they sound, haven't used for years except very occasional mix checking. Would be happy to sell to an appreciative home.

It's something Bob Clearmountain said in a TapeOp interview and available on their podcast - I'll try to find the episode.

If he hadn't bother to say it that often before, I guess others will not be able to reference and cross-reference it as part of their research..

OK, but that doesn't make the observation any less valid; lots of great mixers used them for great balances.

The ProAcs are similar in approach of course; used by Serban to this day! The logic works, even if the details of the history are hazy.

Oh no, that wasnt a point I was making at all..

And anyway, I could find him say it either .. you know when you're absolutely sure that's what was said somewhere, but then can't find it? Well ... let's assume then he didn't say it for now.

However, he does say that after 120 Hz begining of bass roll-off, it's so lacking that he would have to visually check for cone movement to know whether to apply a high pass .

That's obviously not going to work for a lot of genres .. without some other reference, at least for producing/tracking.

For the price of an expensive pair of ns10s, you could get a tatty pair or B&W 801s/802s, the sealed cabinet Series 80 versions.

Different strengths but ultimately everything comes down to getting used to your own monitors in your own room anyway - and the NS10s are not magic, they need the same getting used to, if not more due to their frequency response. They simply have some qualities that some people like .. but they still have to learn them like anything else .

I guess the main thing about ns10s is that people copy each other rather than trying new things for themselves.

Clearmountain only moved to ns10s because his KLH hifi speakers were shot - he wasn't on the look out to change because he felt the 70s low value hifi speakers were bad and hard to mix on . . He'd already mixed a load of hits on them..

Obviously he kept using them because they worked too.

People generally are now too afraid to be judged on the internet for not being professional enough in their choice of gear ..

- trust your own ears and abilities and judge by result.

I disagree. No learning needed because they already sound like all consumer speakers you heard your whole life. Their frequency response is "normal" actually, something everyone's ears are used to.

"Flat" is not normal, I never heard any stereo that sounds like studio monitors. Everything is different about them. When you mix on "flat" you have to convert normal hifi sound into flat and then guess/understand how this will convert back to hifi on consumer devices. So instead of hearing straight away what it needs to be, you have to do these 2-step conversions in your brain. You just add completely redundant processing steps to your listening process, that's all. With NS10s you don't need to. They deliver the real sound stripped of waveguided aural cream and glitter that doesn't exist on peoples laptops, airPods, phones, car speakers, whatever cheap speakers sitting at an odd angle on the office desk.

A lot of people are going out of their way to protest NS10s, and not follow the established standard, like some kind of rebels, like it makes them cool or something. NS10 is a great tool, far from greatest, but perfectly sufficient and capable of allowing you to make a stellar mix with some aid from headphones or whatever studio monitors you have. Now if you're not able to make a good mix on them and need something "better"... it's on you.

That's completely absurd. I have no idea who the f this Clearmountain guy is nor do I care.

I got my NS10s because I was looking for something that works like that, and it's the only thing that professionals unanimously agree on and I didn't feel like wasting my time and money trying every odd recommendation from some nobodies on GS with some psycho anti-NS10 agendas.

And guess what, they worked exactly like I expected. Problem solved, I could move on to mixing.

sure, we believe you, and we take your opinions on NS-10s all the more seriously because of that.

plenty of professionals right here in this thread who are not agreeing
I don't have an "anti-NS10 agenda" as that would mean that I care deeply about them. I just don't agree with the idea that they are God's Gift To Mixing. In fact, I would label a passionate belief in the latter as the more 'psycho' of the two positions.

You're the one who went all the way to capitalize "passionate". That's quite a passionate thing to do.

Nobody said they are Holy Grail. They are just a tool that gets the job done. Most well known and established. And most readily available on used market hence always recommended.

No other speaker has such a long proven record. Lots of people asked what's the next NS10s and noone has any answers that can be substantiated with a mile long record like that of NS10s. A few people like something else this, a few that. That's nothing that goes beyond "one person's opinion". I wouldn't put any money on any of those recommendations. Besides things that are 20x the cost (Barefoots etc). But I've seen too many people with Barefoots in their studios who also have NS10s in between them.

GS has a lot of dumb cults with idiot followers and NS10s bashing cult is probably the biggest one of them.

I'd say that the NS10s of today are rather those JBL wireless speakers like Flip, Charge etc. They seem to be literally everywhere.

I still have my NS10s and still use them regularly. I am actually used to them so while I have a set of much better monitors, I seem to almost be unable to resist doing most of the 'sensitive' checks on them.

In addition, my favourite music is from the 80s and 90s therefore I enjoy the 'romantic idea' of being able to hear all those tracks the way they sounded on the mixing studio prior to release(well, kinda).

Dude you're making a complete ass of yourself; quit while you're behind.

Personally I've never heard them and could give a rat's ass either way, but from an outsider looking in it's my impression that:

- These weren't very good speakers from the start, let alone compared to what's out there now (and what a surprise, given how old they are)
- Oddly, they seemed to become popular in part because of that...basically, if you could make a song sound good on these crapass speakers, you'd make it...any-where (sorry Sinatra)
- They also become popular because once people started seeing them in studios, the sheeple effect took over
- So to sum up for the OP's question, IMO it doesn't make sense for anyone, "newbie" or otherwise

In fact, while there are exceptions, on the whole I really don't get why people would want to go "old school" with any gear. Tech continues to get better, not worse, and by quite a large degree.

I do know that you can get really good monitors for way (way) under $2K.

Wow! 'psycho anti-NS10 agendas' !!

A LOT of professionals don't like them.

I'm not a professional but i had a pair and they sound terrible as hifi speakers for which they were designed - that peaky mid and bright treble sounds horrible,nothing like what people listenes to at home in the 1980s/1990s when they were moat popular, nothing at all .

You say it yourself - you copy people's recommendations, and only from people you first believe as worthy of trust - probably because you see a pair of NS10s on their metre bridge and have an unshakable idea that this is the image of a professional.

They're a hifi speaker ... there a thousands and thousands of hifi speakers out there that sound great, that have many great attributes for studio work. Why NS10s and not the others?

Partly, i bet it's precisely *because * many people hate them that some people are obsessed by them rather than simply being another tool they could swap out with another tool and still get on with their work just fine ..

They're not magic .. they have some attributes like good group delay and a stiff cone, that other speakers also have .. and it's a simple matter of taste.

"Psycho anti-NS10 agendas'"

Do you know what 'capitalize' means?

He put it in bold.

It's not a passionate thing to do, it's reflecting emphasis in speech - if one types as one might speak, it's natural to do.

Unless of course you think that anything outside of a monotonous voice is passionate? A matter of perspective..

Remember that every A-list studio with a pair of NS-10's on the meter bridge also has a giant pair of full-range soffit-mounted monitors costing many thousands of dollars because those allow you to hear everything. NS-10's, like Auratone's, are valued for what they don't reproduce. They're an alternate window on your mix that helps you understand if it will survive an objectively awful consumer playback chain. Treating them as your main or only monitoring tool is like painting while wearing welding goggles. If you're an amateur, your mastering engineer will know right away that you mixed on NS-10's because they will have to clean up the mess.

Well, let's just say you came pretty close. And many of the newbies have certainly come away with that impression from reading people like you on this website. If there is an imbalance at GS, it is in the direction of anointing certain gear as Holy Grails. We see it all the time, mics, preamps, compressors.

Actually quite the opposite. There are too many answers. The world has changed, and now there are many companies making something to fill that niche. That market is now fragmented, no longer dominated by one speaker.

When you ask what are the "next" NS-10s, you are not asking what's a newly made good speaker for mixing, for which there are tons of answers. You are asking what speaker has a near-monopoly on that secondary speaker thing. It's like asking "what is the next Blockbuster"? At one time it was close to the only game in town, but times have changed.

Yes "also". That is another vote against the idea of NS-10s being God's Gift To Mixing. It is saying the NS-10s are useful to them, but not useful enough to be trusted as their only speaker.

What are your "bigs"? What are you using for real speakers in addition to your NS-10s?


I don't know what website you are reading, but on the
Gearspace that I come to, the "cults" here largely consist of putting certain pieces of gear on a pedestal. I see it every day.

Just because some professional engineer (who actually uses the gear in question) is not buying it doesn't make them a "basher". Although I suppose it may seem that way to member of a cult that worships that gear. It's sacrilege! How dare they? I don't think its "bashing" to put NS-10 worship into its proper perspective. It is not bashing to say they aren't God's Gift to Mixing, which is the strongest criticism I have.

We have NS-10s at one of the studios where I work, they are OK, but if they did not have any alternative speakers, I would bring my own. OTOH, if they did not have the NS-10s I wouldn't be fazed.

And with that, I will leave you to your Barefoot-Bashing. Enjoy.

Transient response. Time alignment of instruments bass and kick is more obvious on them. And when placed in a big console n in a professional control room you get a mid forward presentation. A reference. Sealed box in the near field position in a well treated control room makes for a useful reference for mixing.

Many amateur stick them in a small room with insufficient treatment and have them too close to the wall and then wonder why they don't achieve the results.