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D-Box/Logic X Summing Issue
Old 18th May 2015
  #1
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🎧 5 years
D-Box/Logic X Summing Issue

Hey All,

Okay, so I just got the D-Box to work hand-in-hand with my Apollo Quad. I mainly got it for summing, but also intend to use it for its quality D/A conversion and monitoring capabilities. However, I'm not used to this new workflow and really need some help on how to get it going.

I know that when I'm looking to start summing my mix I need to group together certain tracks to be sent to outputs 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 in no particular order. That's fine. However, it's the rest of it that's confusing to me. I'm certainly no professional when it comes to analog gear, and I'm not used to having to create stems for my final mix because I've been mixing ITB. So can someone please walk me through this step by step?

I've watched Fab Dupont's integration videos and they've helped me wire everything up correctly, but the summing aspect is still super murky. Apart from summing, I have the D-box up and running from a monitoring perspective -- so it's all hooked up correctly. I know that a lot of integration is going to be within the I/O of Logic X. So how does that work? I know that I need to be running through SPDIF back into Logic, but I can't figure out how to do that in my I/O settings. I have it set up where "SPDIF mirrors monitors 1/2" in my console settings -- so that's not an issue.

As you can see, I'm all over the place with this. Please, someone just give me a basic step-by-step process on how to take my final, stemmed mix, sum it through the D-box, return it to Logic, and then print it in Logic.

I've attached a screenshot of a super basic track that I did strictly to test summing with the D-box with only 5 tracks stemmed out into guitar (going to output 1/2), lead (going to output 3/4), and drums (going to output 5/6). Please tell me what the next steps would be after where I am right now. Also, I assume that when I'm trying to hear the summed mix (once all this is made clearer to me), I have the D-box set to "sum" -- right? See -- lots of questions.

Thank you!!
Attached Thumbnails
D-Box/Logic X Summing Issue-screen-shot-2015-05-17-7.22.18-pm.jpg  
Old 18th May 2015
  #2
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🎧 5 years
I think the only additional step you need is to create a stereo track for printing in your DAW, run the Sum Outputs from the d-box into two of the Apollo's inputs and hit record to print the summed track.
Old 18th May 2015
  #3
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You don't run digital back to Logic as you said.. for one that would require the D-Box to have digital out and it doesn't.

Send out the ch's in pairs as you mentioned from Logic to D-Box..It's handy to set up 4 buss outs.. have tracks that are meant for say 1/2 to go to that first buss which then goes out to 1/2.. So later if you got all the tracks rolling with audiomation and what not.. You can reach over and turn those up or down as an over all level for buss out to D-Box.. if you follow.

Then you come out of the SUM out on D-Box into 2 analog Line inputs on your interface.

This would be what I call my 2buss: Then in Logic you and create a track or Aux (Not logic user so don't know what they call things) then you can add plugins to print with like compression/EQ Slate VCC or tape EMU whatever?

send that to another track.. to Print the mix.

Now for monitoring you can either use that 2Buss to send digital out.
or the print.. back in Pro Tools (before my Reaper days) I would monitor thru my Print track.. so I could listen as I mix but also listen back to playback if I printed.. Which ever track/buss you pick for your monitor out. Make that your Spdif out to D-Box.

Then on D-Box hit the button for DAW (if you are using the DAW AES in)
I monitor this way all the time.. I never listened to the sum button.. Because I want to hear the DA but also my AD converter going back in plus the fact you can add the 2buss plugins.. you'll want to monitor that.

The rest in all ITB unless you start adding hardware in between.
Old 18th May 2015
  #4
Registered User
I don't know what skill level you're at, but if you're having problems with a semi-basic setup like that I am assuming that you're semi-new to engineering and mixing; if I were you, I would probably focus more on your ITB mixing technique rather than getting caught up with summing
An improvement in your EQ, compression, balance technique and knowledge would have a much more noticeable improvement on the quality of your mixes than summing OTB would.
I'm talking from experience, from spending heaps of time trying different ways to improve my mixes haha; I still learn heaps from hanging out with other engineers, reading books, listening to podcasts, experimenting, and just experience from spending time mixing heaps of music.
I love my d-box, and the summing really is a great bonus on top of the great monitoring, but a good music source, good mic placement, and good mix technique has much more of an impact on the sound than summing.
Also, I personally wouldn't bother summing OTB unless I'm doing OTB/analog processing on the stems, drum bus, master, etc.
IMO IME YMMV
Old 18th May 2015 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsteeno ➑️
I don't know what skill level you're at, but if you're having problems with a semi-basic setup like that I am assuming that you're semi-new to engineering and mixing; if I were you, I would probably focus more on your ITB mixing technique rather than getting caught up with summing
An improvement in your EQ, compression, balance technique and knowledge would have a much more noticeable improvement on the quality of your mixes than summing OTB would.
I'm talking from experience, from spending heaps of time trying different ways to improve my mixes haha; I still learn heaps from hanging out with other engineers, reading books, listening to podcasts, experimenting, and just experience from spending time mixing heaps of music.
I love my d-box, and the summing really is a great bonus on top of the great monitoring, but a good music source, good mic placement, and good mix technique has much more of an impact on the sound than summing.
Also, I personally wouldn't bother summing OTB unless I'm doing OTB/analog processing on the stems, drum bus, master, etc.
IMO IME YMMV
I don't disagree at all. I am semi-new to engineering and mixing compared to many of the people here. I've been recording/mixing/engineering for about 2 years now. 2 1/2 years ago I was making shitty demos in garageband and now I'm creating solid mixes in LX and PT -- so I've come a ways. Either way, yes, summing should not be my focus -- and it isn't. My main focus is still mixing ITB. After many months of frustration I've finally gotten a handle on compression -- EQ came very easily to me, and mic placement was literally the first thing I ever learned. I'm not saying I want the D-box because I intend to use it to solve a problem I'm having. I simply want it because my next step is to slowly move into OTB mixing. I've also recently added an outboard EQ and outboard limiter to my rack. My main goal is to learn -- not to use the D-box as a quick fix or anything.

All that being said, is LittleBoxRecords correct? You seem to have a solid handle on all this -- so can you please give me a good step-by-step. I completely admit that I'm learning and its early on in the process. I just need some guidance now that I'm dipping my toe in the more complicated waters of the OTB world.

Thanks!
Old 18th May 2015
  #6
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🎧 20 years
The Dbox will not add any color as you may have read.. But if you want to get your feet wet with going OTB a little can't hurt..

But the Dbox DA I think will be more useful to you then the summing.
It changed things for me. At this point I'm not really using the summing anymore.. For now sometimes I like to change things up.. But the DA really sounds great it makes eq,dynamic choices easier mixing.. Same with hearing fx with more detail.
Old 19th May 2015
  #7
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🎧 5 years
Here's an update on my D-box woes:

Stemming went fine. The confusing thing at first is that the Apollo recognizes output 1-2 as the monitor outs -- so that means that output 1-2 is actually output 3-4 in Logic, 3-4 is 5-6, 5-6 is 7-8, and 7-8 is 9-10. That's a mess as it stands, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct about that because all 8 channels are lighting up like a green traffic light on the D-box when I went to sum AND the lead stem (sent to output 9-10) responds to the panning knobs for 7-8. I created a bus for each stem, and sent all the busses to all to the appropriate outputs.

Summing them all together sounded great. Added headroom, gave the mix space. I was happy.

THEN: I went to print the track and POOF, all my progress was halted. I created a stereo track set to input 1-2 since the Sum Output of the D-box is feeding into inputs 1-2. I record-enabled the print track set to the stereo outs for monitoring. I start recording with my print track record-enabled and there is absolutely nothing being captured. The print track is entirely blank. Where did I go wrong?? I followed Fab Dupont's video to a T in terms of wiring and routing, so I know that's not wrong, especially since everything worked perfectly up until I went to print. I have all my busses going to the right outputs. The D-box is recognizing the signals on all 8 channels. Why is it not printing?? Someone please tell me that I'm just missing one step and all my problems will be solved. Thanks!
Old 19th May 2015
  #8
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I've never used UAD software so have no idea what you can and can't do.. but from using many other over the years.. I'm going to go back to what I was saying earlier..

it's weird that as simple as the D-box is for a studio unit it has given more people trouble then anything.. it maybe giving more trouble to guys who never worked on consoles or not sure.. But I seem to have gotten from day one.. I do find it hard to explain because either I over look something that I would think is common sense and forget to mention.. or I suck at explaining something I know to someone who doesn't..lol why i'm not a teacher.

Well to me.. I would search to see if you have change the UAD default monitoring. I think my RME digiface defaulted to ch 1/2 as well but I switched it to ch 25/26 which are spdif. That goes out to my D-box..

You don't want to be monitoring off the UA D/A converters.. the D-Box is much better. if you can switch that to digital out.. then you should be able to go back to using your 1/2 and so on..so that it lines up with Logic ch's..

If you get past that part.. you don't want to create a stereo track to print to after you mix.. as I said you should have that from the start. It's important to be going out to D-Box and returning into Apollo. AND LISTENING TO THAT RETURN.. the whole time.. The A/D of course makes a difference in color/tone. So you want to hear that as you work.. not print and then playback to hear the difference.. that sort of goes back to the 2track tape days..

so you have signal going in.. so you can monitor.. don't monitor from that SUM button it's a waste of time.. it's fine to check what's going out to D-Box.
But if you monitor that return track as you work like I said you can add plugins to print and be hearing them.. and again this ch/track has to be going out digital so you can hear the D/A in the Dbox to take advantage of the great DA that's there..

you should then be able to hit record on the ch's you selected to be your return (1/2) and hit record.. if you still are getting nothing double check routing inside the UAD software.. I can't help on that end.. but the other main setup I mention is pretty much the norm for a D-box setup. if you want to hear all the converters and what they are doing as you mix.
Old 19th May 2015
  #9
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🎧 10 years
Ok. Don't listen to those people telling u to worry about itb just because u have minor beginning not begiiner questions

U did everythkng correct. Except u need to creat an aux track and bus that to a stereo audio track

Also go into logics I/o and fix that mess of a problem with the outputs not being correct


So
U wiuld have say vocals on out 7. Fx like reverb and such on 8. I use these for dedicated vocals and fx. I don't have to but I like the natural pan knobs

So now u put drums or whatever at 3-4 and so on with 1-2 and 5-6. Now u need to print the sum output back into logic

This is where it gets a tiny tricky but not really. U want to creat an auxiliary track so u can do some poor mans mastering or u want to comprrss and eq the final print. If u just kept it on an audio track them it wouldn't render the info when u export the final print from logic to a folder on the desktop or whatever. That's why u set up an auxiliary track so u can print those fx into that actual mix. Then that audio track will contain the eq or compression that u put in the sum output

U then simply click on that audio of the print in yor stereo track (the one buses from the auxiliary ) and export it to what ever destination u see fit
I know protools is command control k I beleive. Idk I do it so often that it just comes natural.
Old 19th May 2015
  #10
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See I forget things cause I'm not doing it anymore.. When I mixed in Pro tools then Cubase I did the Aux track thing as well to get FX printed..

but in Reaper now a ch can record it's own FX without it needing to come from an Aux.. so forgot that part.
Old 19th May 2015
  #11
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And also.. I just took a look at the UAD manual and you can like most units change your monitoring output to Spdif.. then run digital to Dbox DAW input so you can monitor from that DA.. use that as your speaker level not the UAD knob..

That will know allow you to use 1/2 and so on..so it will match up with Logic..
Old 22nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebenard913 ➑️
U wiuld have say vocals on out 7. Fx like reverb and such on 8. I use these for dedicated vocals and fx. I don't have to but I like the natural pan knobs
Mono FX?.. Panned? Lol, that's getting creative

I run FX out stereo, and bass and vocals mono, centered
Old 22nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsteeno ➑️
Mono FX?.. Panned? Lol, that's getting creative

I run FX out stereo, and bass and vocals mono, centered
I wouldn't call it creative , just more efficient.
Old 22nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebenard913 ➑️
I wouldn't call it creative , just more efficient.
So it's more efficient to run the FX in mono? Why wouldn't you just buss them with other things to save the stereo image
Old 22nd May 2015 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faderjockey ➑️
So it's more efficient to run the FX in mono? Why wouldn't you just buss them with other things to save the stereo image
Oh no!!! Don't do a face palm. It looks like it could hurt your closed mindedness even more

So we have two rebuttles

1). Why would you set rules ... The first rule u should remember is there are no rules.

.2)that's just one way to handle a broader stereo dimension. After all a mono tail from a reverb on vocals is still a mono take once printed.. Now if the reverb calls for stereo then yes I will set the verbs to its own bus. But why would u utilize two channels for a mono source if you had the opportunity to keep it true mono??? In essence by doing that you are keeping the true essence of the take. After all it's a mono vocal on 7 and now u can set 8 for the mono reverb ...

Your looking at this like "you have to do it this way ... Or it won't work"... There's no right or wrong way

I try to keep all channels as efficient as possible

So that means I necessarily don't bus all my drums to say 3-4. I may do that on my overheads. But as far as the individual instruments
If the snare and clap don't hit at same time then I'll put those on the same output... Why. Because nothing is going overcrowded with that channel Other words it's just like your daw busses when you have multiple sonics buildings up then it's easy to overload your bus and clip. Maybe that's one of the several reasons I do that

And again it doesn't matter. I still follow proper gain staging. I still apply proper tracking techniques.
Those are far more important and will carry u ever so far and then add a dbox. Boom. Great times.

Again though. There's no rigt or wrong way. Just the way of the session at that particular moment

And I apologize for what ever it was that I did to offend u so much as to get an impatient face palm


Yikes !!!!
Old 22nd May 2015
  #16
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LOL!!!! Good luck with that... here's a better one
Old 23rd May 2015
  #17
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🎧 10 years
Go ahead and look at Fab DuPonts videos of the dbox. He really will show u everything I just explained In a video. There's actually a few videos. I know it's a little to wrap your head around but once u get it going it will make sense

It will also integrate ITB mixing with your new hardware And that's the reason for the aux track. So u can print those fx to your actual Final mix. Hence being called a "Print"

Those videos should really help u out !!!
Old 23rd May 2015
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
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D-Box and UA Apollo Setup - Dangerous Music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yOWQ01r1y8
Old 23rd May 2015
  #19
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Template It can help.
http://dangerousmusic.com/products/d-box Downloads.
Attached Files

Last edited by M_Music; 23rd May 2015 at 06:37 PM..
Old 26th June 2016
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Bringing an old thread back to life. I have a setup just like the OP's, and I just changed a current project to use the summing features of the D-Box. I'm going to assume that the OP was able to figure out his issues, because he hasn't been back.

I was able to get output on my print track, no problem. I used the template that was included in this thread by M_Music (thanks!) for reference, and it doesn't use an aux track to bus to a stereo track; the Print Track uses inputs 1&2, which is where the summed output from the D-Box is fed back into the Apollo (I'm using inputs 7&8).

So the summing is working and I am able to record the summed output to the stereo print track. However, the plug-ins that were on the Stereo Out channel aren't working anymore, because it isn't being used. I was able to fix that by just dragging them from the Stereo Out to the Print track, but there is no way to monitor them in realtime, because you have to mute the output of the Print track while you are recording to it.

Is that why you folks are calling for an aux track - send inputs 7&8 to this new aux track, add the plug-ins that were on the Stereo Out, and then use it as the input to the Print track?

Thanks,
Doug
Old 26th June 2016
  #21
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Yes.. I no longer use Pro Tools.. but when I did you use the aux as your 2buss with plugs and send that to print like you said. .

I'd run that print or Aux ch out digital into Dbox for monitoring.
Old 27th June 2016
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Can someone who is using Logic Pro post some info on how they are doing this? I've got a feeling that my method is a bit convoluted.

Thanks,
Doug
Old 28th June 2016
  #23
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🎧 15 years
Here is what I did, and it's working, but it seems more complicated than it should be:

1. Created an aux channel strip called PRINT AUX using inputs 7&8 as the input. I moved my plug-ins from the 2bus to this channel strip. So far, so good, but...
2. There is no way to send the output of PRINT AUX channel strip directly to the Print track; you can choose no output, output to the various outs, or output to bus.
3. I chose BUS. That created a new bus, which I'll call PRINT BUS.
4. Now my Print track uses PRINT BUS as the input, and it works.

So the summed output from the D-Box goes to an aux strip w/ the 2bus plug-ins, which goes to a bus, which goes to the print track.

Is that the proper sequence?
Old 28th June 2016 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb415 ➑️
Here is what I did, and it's working, but it seems more complicated than it should be:

1. Created an aux channel strip called PRINT AUX using inputs 7&8 as the input. I moved my plug-ins from the 2bus to this channel strip. So far, so good, but...
2. There is no way to send the output of PRINT AUX channel strip directly to the Print track; you can choose no output, output to the various outs, or output to bus.
3. I chose BUS. That created a new bus, which I'll call PRINT BUS.
4. Now my Print track uses PRINT BUS as the input, and it works.

So the summed output from the D-Box goes to an aux strip w/ the 2bus plug-ins, which goes to a bus, which goes to the print track.

Is that the proper sequence?
Yep, running through the "buss" in Logic isn't affecting the sound at all. So essentially you are going straight from your 2bus aux to the print track. Just pretend there's no buss in between.
Old 29th June 2016 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougb415 ➑️
Here is what I did, and it's working, but it seems more complicated than it should be:

1. Created an aux channel strip called PRINT AUX using inputs 7&8 as the input. I moved my plug-ins from the 2bus to this channel strip. So far, so good, but...
2. There is no way to send the output of PRINT AUX channel strip directly to the Print track; you can choose no output, output to the various outs, or output to bus.
3. I chose BUS. That created a new bus, which I'll call PRINT BUS.
4. Now my Print track uses PRINT BUS as the input, and it works.

So the summed output from the D-Box goes to an aux strip w/ the 2bus plug-ins, which goes to a bus, which goes to the print track.

Is that the proper sequence?
That sounds right for your setup.. I'm in Reaper and I just send Aux(2buss) ch to the print track with a send... But in Repaer you could also right click record button for any track and have it record (print) the plugs that are on that track.. But I just do what you tried to do and send it to Print track.. But if you can't sounds like your work around will do the trick..
Old 29th June 2016
  #26
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🎧 15 years
Thanks guys!
Old 14th September 2016
  #27
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🎧 15 years
For some reason I am still not able to monitor the plug ins that are on the PRINT AUX in real time. I would think that if I bypass an EQ or a compressor while playing a project, I should hear an audible difference. Nope. Audio is passing thru the plugs, I can see the change in the levels. If I do an EQ sweep, I hear nothing, but if I print a track when I'm doing that EQ sweep, it gets recorded... but I don't hear it until I play the print track back. I am baffled.

My summing process is the same as how Fab describes it. I have the D-Box Input Select set to DAW and I've got the summed output from the D-Box coming into inputs 7 & 8. I created an aux channel strip called PRINT AUX using inputs 7 & 8 as the input. I moved my mix bus plug-ins from the 2bus to this channel strip.

I set PRINT AUX's Output to a new bus, which I call PRINT BUS. PRINT BUS itself has no Output selected, but my Print track uses PRINT BUS as the input. Everything works, *except* for being able to monitor the plug ins on the PRINT AUX. If I try to bypass the AUX track and use Inputs 7 & 8 with PRINT BUS, I get no output on my Print track. That means that the AUX is receiving the input, passing it to the plug ins, and then sending the output to the print bus. So why can't I hear any changes made to the plug ins in PRINT AUX in real time?
Old 14th September 2016
  #28
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Are you making sure that print track is solo enabled? So it's grayed out... Which would allow you to always be hearing it.
Old 14th September 2016
  #29
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🎧 15 years
I think I know the answer, and I don't know the work around, but there *has* to be one - unless there is literally no way to do a real time monitor of the D-Box output. If I route the output of the aux strip to the Stereo Out, then I can monitor the plug ins in real time - or should i say, almost real time. There is a nice slapback when monitoring the output from the D-Box, which makes it very difficult to listen to the mix. I can't come up with what it is that I could mute that would allow me to listen to the aux print strip only. I don't want to make it a two-pass process, where I have no plug ins on my mix bus, then print a track and add my mix bus plug ins to that track.

I found this at The Womb: "I just send my Summed outputs back into the DAW. I have the track I'm printing to set for monitoring and in Solo safe mode. This way I'm monitoring the the 2track I'm printing at all times and the effect the AD going in has on the sound."

So how do I do this in Logic Pro? It doesn't look like PT's Solo Safe and Logic Pro's Solo Safe is the same thing. How can I monitor only the Print Track?
Old 14th September 2016
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
When you're printing the summed mix and want to hear the plugins you're using on that track:

Make sure "DAW" is pressed on the d-box and software monitoring is enabled in logic. Make sure to mute the apollo inputs or you'll hear doubling.

OR

Same as above, but use UAD plugins for your bus comp etc and monitor from the Apollo inputs
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