If you go to the BSO's "Google+" page, there is an interesting image.... I can't link to it, but will upload the jpeg here.

Mark Donahue, was this something you recorded?

If i remember correct I heard Everett Porter of Polyhymnia say he recorded in Boston for the bso a few times. Could very well be his setup.

Looks like a Decca Tree to me…

It's Soundmirror, but not me. John Newton did that recording. From Michael Lutch's picture you can't really see what's going on.
It is several different systems all hung at the same time.
LCR for surround
Onno for Stereo
the 4 TLM50's are ambience
and a bunch of spot mics.
All the best,
-mark

Thank you Mark!

Not having ever done a dual surround and stereo recording myself, I wonder if the character differences between the Sennheiser and DPA mic arrays ever concern you, as far as the tonal difference between the 2 mixes are concerned? Or do the surround and stereo release formats sound so different anyways that the mics character differences are almost negligible?

I am sure Mark will see this soon to answer for himself, but it is indeed the Soundmirror setup that you see in the picture. I believe what Mark told me is that they use either the double sized Decca tree with the mkh800's or the Onno main array setup depending on the rep. Those are 4006TLs on the bar in case you were curious.
Cameron

John Newton did that recording. From Michael Lutch's picture you can't really see what's going on.

So it is not the rep., but the format that determines what main array is getting used? Did you have a something like a grace surround speaker controller to switch back and forth between listening formats setup at symphony hall?
Merry Christmas Mark.

If you go to google and type in "Boston Symphony Orchestra", and set the search parameters for "larger than 1024..." You will see this picture come up, and you can download it. It's a big, detailed shot when found this way, I don't know why my uploaded images quality is so bad. But check it out, it's much clearer, and you can make out the many spots that are placed over the orchestra. The vocal spots are particularly interesting to me, as they are flown in.

Excuse for asking, what exactly is 'ONNO' in this array?
38cm spaced DPA4060's?

I'm impressed.

Cam,
It was not necessarily the mix format or the rep that determined what I used in mixing. The reality here is that for each program one or the other set generally worked better, sometimes it was a hybrid of the two. These were archival recordings so we never know what would be chosen for release and in what format so we always liked to have options.

I not positive what piece was being played during the photo, but I suspect that it may have been one of the Harbison symphonies that just came out last spring. It's available in both Stereo and Surround High res download from the BSO website.

THe Onno pipe that we use is made up of 4 4006 microphones. It was the system that he used for most of his Philips classics recordings.
All the best,
-mark

Onno once asked me if I used a real microphone.

I answered that , yes, I did.

(he meant an omni microphone of course.)

I am curious too. I think I see the 4 4006 mic's on that bar; hard for me to tell from this picture but it looks to be about 2 meters across, and I am guessing the two blurry black lines in the center are some sort of near-coincident arrangment and there are two on the extreme ends of the pipe.

Is this anywhere near correct?

Yeah looks to be about 30cm in the center and about 8 ft on the sides. A combination of good center imagery and good stereo separation. A lot cleaner than using 3 stands I guess.

https://gearspace.com/board/5692506-post91.html

The mics on the bar are 4006TL with silver grids

Thanks!

I should have seen the 3 meter spacing - it's not quite twice as long as the conductor is tall.

Are they sitting with vlns on the right and basses on the left, or is the image reversed?
50s for ambience is something I wouldn't have thought of. Where are they aimed at?

That was the first thought that occurred to me too. but the conductor would then be left-handed...and there's only a 10% chance of that being the case. :-)

I believe the orchestra seating arrangement in the USA often differs from the European tradition?

This is a German orchestral seating, as was common in basically all symphony orchestras before the second world war, also in the United States. Compositionally, the opposing violins have been taken into account by composers from Bach to Tchaikovsky and to do justice to their works, this is how an orchestra should sit.

Apart from that, this seating offers the best sound and balance for the audience, according to the way the instruments project. The basses being close to the treble is beneficial for the musicians.

There is a lot to write about this. I am very glad to see that more and more orchestras and conductors are returning to this lay-out.

Best,
Dirk

Yes, I like this arrangement a lot as well. I first encountered it while living in Austria, but it seems to be becoming more popular again in the US as well. Counterpoint between the violin sections often becomes much clearer. It also helps to have the double basses and low brass on opposite sides.

Oops, didn't see the 1st vln section on the left. That's what happens when you're looking for mics instead.

There are works composed for that seating, and others that seem to have the "American" seating 1st - 2nd - Va - Vc in mind. You cannot simplify so much as to say "this is how an orchestra should sit".

You are right, I should have been more specific. However, works that keep the American seating in mind really only popped up during half of the 20th century, e.g. Bernstein and contemporaries. They are very interesting stories about why this seating has been established especially in the United States with the advent of recordings - the violins sitting opposite of each other were prone to more apparent ensemble issues. Toscanini and Karajan really started the trend, but from a compositional point it is as late as Tchaikovsky and Mahler that the scores really request for a German seating. Do you know of any pre-WW2 repertoire which you would say "require" American seating?

By the way, one of the things I always found with the OHNO 4 omnis-on-a-row is the transparency of string groups, positively favouring the middle two voices, which makes it great for both the American and German seating. The higher sensitivity in those directions really helps to get a complete balance of the orchestra, amongst many other aspects that make this system unique. As Mark often wrote it is not so easy to get to grips with, but it is definitely worth the effort.

Onno told me something very interesting once, that Alan Blumlein already described a very similar system with filters applied to the middle pair (rolling off low freq.) as well as the outer mics (rolling off high freq.). Does anybody know more about this?

Best,

Dirk

Impressive rigging, not easy to do I'm sure.

American seating works better than German seating with any work that has 1st and 2nd vlns in parallel lines most of the time. This treatment of strings can be found throughout music history - as can the "ping-pong" or counterpoint treatment.
One should also keep in mind that "German" seating means the 2nd vlns radiate away from the audience.
Both seatings have their place.

We are hijacking the thread a bit . There is not enough room here to elaborate on all, but it is a common misconception that in German seating the 2nd violins are radiating away from the audience, originating often from the graphs by Jürgen Meyer ("Akustik und musikalische Aufführungspraxis"). The only thing that happens is that a certain frequency band is less pronounced than comparing with the first violins, however this can even have the effect of a more audible timbre of the second violins. In recording terms, I have found it not to be uncommon for the second violins to sound clearer on a main system with German seating, for example. Also, being separated, the second violins are physically not covered anymore by the firsts sitting in front of them.

As for parallel lines, this really is a matter of definition and expectation. Having the violin sections spread left and right offers more transparency when they are playing different material, and when playing unisono they are, simply, louder. This has been taken into account by the composers, at least that is what most experts say - again, countless examples that are difficult to sum up here. "Better" is an adjective that is a bit out of place.

The way the instruments function in the room (or, in respect to the walls) is another factor often forgotten, especially in respect to the celli and basses. That this has a definite impact on the chose recording strategy should be clear!

Best,
Dirk

The whole "American seating vs German seating" discussion boils down to a big and mighty IT DEPENDS. As was to be expected.

Well, no. Not at all. The reference still remains the composer's vision and intention and, as you can find throughout music history, the preference was for a German seating. Conductor Herbert Blomstedt used strong words during an interview and said it is "a crime" to sit in the American seating, "you can not do justice to the music". He was clearly talking about repertoire up until Mahler or so.

I don't think it is useful at all to say "it depends". That does not mean artists are free to choose what they prefer, of course.

Best,
Dirk