I've been running a PA for a while now with 2x QSC K12s and one Mackie SWA1501.

Group circumstances have changed a bit, and I'm dealing with all the PA gear now... and I have a bear of a time dealing with getting the mackie around my house, and in and out of the car by myself.

My question is this. I was looking at replacing the mackie with 2x 12" subs, maybe a Electro Voice SBA2 / SB122 pair, one on each side of the stage.

Would I really lose any sound, or would it be minimal?

The spec sheets say the Mackie is 500w continuous, and the EV is 350.

Also, the Mackie goes down to 36hz and the EV's look like they bottom out at 44hz.

It's physics: the area of the LF cone X displacement of the driver is what makes the difference in LF supply, but it really depends on what you're putting through it.

Do a demo. Only good way to know. If you're buying from a mail-order house, order BOTH with the promise to return the one you don't like within 24 hours of opening the boxes, and return it in "as-unopened" new condition.

If it was me, I'd stick with the Mackie, which gets you to about 122dB on average, rated at 128 peak. And add another with the money you want to spend on the EV stuff. Of course, I also pull a trailer with a roll-up ramp, and my entire small format system is cased, and on wheels.

I used the EV Sx series "subs"... once. Immediately went back to the big, bulky Community 15" cabs I was running at the time. The dancers were not impressed. The 122s don't even specify an actual max SPL (the 128 they quote is "calculated") and strongly suggest a 40Hz HPF to keep you from blowing them up. The SB2As don't even go that far... no SPL spec at all on the eBay ad I saw. They don't seem to be current product as far as the EV website is concerned. Definitely try before you commit to buy. Do a direct, side-by-side comparison. Prepare to be underwhelmed... If they work for you... well, OK, then.

However... the laws of physics dictate that a 12 cannot move as much air (which is all a sub is good fer, really) as a similarly rated 15 (half again as much piston area) in a similarly loaded box without (1) scads more power (2) a much longer cone excursion (3) a larger, more efficient box. A pair of 122s with 700w between them might come close, but without the cojones or headroom. If you go with them, to get them a couple of dB louder, either stack them or array them on the floor/ground in the center so you get a bit of coupling. With subs, size and proximity do matter.

In fact... I find it difficult to do live alt country/bluegrass/wedding party cover band gigs without a pair of Mackie 1801s... one of which will eat the 1501 for lunch and look for dessert. If you can find a used EAW SBX220 Dual 12" Compact, High-Powered Subwoofer, and have a 1500-2,000wrms power amp laying around... well, then... an honest 130dB. Bottoms out at 38Hz. Weighs a ton (well... 105 pounds). Would kick some serious booty, comparatively.

You might want to take a look at the Rcf902. They are single 12 and about the weight and size of many tops, but with more punch than expected from the size.
Gunnar

Why are we shying away from the dual 12" QSC subs for the K series?

First, manufacturer spec's (especially when it comes to speakers) should be taken with a pinch or two of salt and if you want to know anything real you need to measure yourself.

Second, if you use your PA indoors multiple subs will be better since you excite room modes less. As long as the subs are relatively close (in relation to wavelength) they still "couple" to eachother, especially in the direction towards a crowd.


/Peter

On the off chance you’re still reading GS: How would you feel if you bought something (say a microphone) thinking you’re buying a brand new product (aka an unopened box), and when you received it, the box seemed unopened, but in reality it had already been opened by another person, touched, breathed on, sang into…?

Many companies have a sale category called ‘open box’, which attaches a discounted sales price to cover precisely this situation. It’s common practice, and generally people accept the trade off happily.

Sure, the open-box category is very transparent. Meaning, the next person who purchases a product marked as “open-box”, knows EXACTLY what they’re getting (or in this case, NOT getting, i.e., a truly unopened brand new product). They know they’re purchasing an already opened product.

But based on what Jim said (i.e., opening a box and then returning it as unopened), I was under the impression that the seller then lists the returned product as brand new (unopened) on their website. Meaning, the next person who buys the product, HAS NO IDEA that their “brand new” purchase had already been opened and used once by another person. Otherwise, why would you return a product whose box you opened as “unopened” in the first place?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

So that leaves it entirely up to the retailer’s ethics to describe it for sale accurately, according to their best guess or information of the ‘demo status’ of the goods. It’s not down to the person returning the item to supply that information. The retailer describes it as unopened or otherwise…depending on their assessment of the box, packaging, sealing strips etc.

It’s also conceivable that an item that’s never left the shop could still get ‘open box’ status….if the packaging was damaged or creased/crinkled during transport from the distributor

old thread, wrong forum...

...simple answer: depends on the criteria (footprint/handling aspects, fr, max. output, setup/optional sub array etc.) which the op values higher (and of course on specific gear/brands/models).

While you were writing that, did you think that
a) this was written 14 years ago, things MIGHT have changed since then,
b) what you wrote violates the standards of the forum by being wildly off-topic?

Because I believe GS needs to be a respectful forum, and both Jules & Steve hold us to the same level of respect they do themselves, I'll share this:

2011...There were still a LOT of competitive box stores back then, and salesman/customer relationships were more tight back in the day, so the assumption was: if you didn't have a Pro Vendor you could visit easily and AES was a 6-12 months away, this was a technique from 1997-2014 that was wildly popular from salespeople I had good relationships with.

We were talking about a self-powered sub in 2011. A LOT has changed since then. But microphones, in particular: if you think a mic you receive from the factory has not been touched, spoken, sung, & breathed into? You're sadly mistaken. It's been tested, burned in, metered, and QC'd at a (small) factory, and usually touched by several people in the process. I want whatever I buy to have passed burn-in and spec. And when you are talking about expensive gear, YES it has been touched and breathed on by people before you. THink about it: the doctor or midwife births a child, touches it and breathes on it before handing the newborn to the mother. Why should your gear be any different?

I hope this helps answer your off-topic question to a 14 year old thread. You might spark an interesting discussion if you posted this as a topical question in a different forum. Cheers!