Here is a fascinating look at the recording of the Bach Cello Suites performed by Winona Zelenka. The engineer is Ron Searles. He uses three, matched Royer R-122 mics in a modified Decca Tree. He has some interesting points regarding the advantages of the modified Decca Tree, ribbons over condenser mics when recording bowed stringed instruments, and the advantages of a figure 8 verses an omnidirectional pattern as it relates to reverb.

Granted, the video is put out by Royer but the sound of this recording is stunning. It makes me think seriously about purchasing a pair of nice ribbon mics to record strings. Just gorgeous.

I thought many of you would be interested. Here it is...

Royer R-122 Microphones on Cello featuring Winona Zelenka - YouTube

Lovely cello sound from an unpromising looking venue
Pity Ron was not recorded better,it diminishes the impact
Superb instrument and playing.

Yep, beautiful primary sound, but lacking in air in the reverb.

Because of the ribbons?

Yes I think so. Ribbons don't seem to capture the room air as well as condensers. They are fine as spots and close main pairs, but not at a distance, IMHO.

looking at the room, I'm wondering if that was the point, and Mr Searles was just politely avoiding saying the room was sub-optimal for the project. He did say he chose Fig-8 mics to reject unpleasant room reflections from the sides.

Conversely excellent in "over-verb'y" rooms. I love ribbons for, let's say, some choirs in some churches.

D.

IMO the quality of the cello and recording make up for the dryer sounding reverb.

BTW, here are two articles by Searles about the recording.

Capturing The Natural Sound Of A 300 Year Old Cello Part 1 by Ron Searles

Capturing The Natural Sound Of A 300 Year Old Cello Part 2 by Ron Searles

In part 1 he indicates that the location was a deliberate choice. In the second article he mentions why he went for a dryer reverb.

"Since the proliferation of the iPod, reproduction through headphones is a more important consideration than ever. By checking carefully with very good headphones as well as speakers, I varied the mic position until we had the right blend of cello vs. reverb from the room. Headphones usually make the reverb more obvious than speakers, so I leaned toward being a bit dryer than I might if I was only concerned with speaker playback".

Interesting point.

Even though I agree with reverb being more obvious in headphones, I find it
a bit unsettling that optimizing for headphone/earbud listening is now a main factor in recording.

I'm OK with it as long as it still sounds convincing through speakers. I often listen to music through headphones at night so as not to disturb my wife and I would like the music to still sound good, if I choose to listen to it that way.

Avoiding early reflections and poor acoustics and recording the air in the reverb are two different things. I agree about the pattern choice to solve the first, but the transducer mech properties and its freq response are preventing the second thing.

further to the recording "dryer" for headphone listeners comment - does anyone have a firm opinion about the effect of mp3 / AAC compression on perceived reverb balance? My limited experience with iTunes releases of stuff I've mixed is it seems a little less reverberant then the original.

mp3 is a minor miracle of music texting but it does mangle many subtleties,it seems to highlight compression artefacts as well as dry up complex reverbs a little.
To quote TF,'How much can you piss in the soup before the customer sends it back?'

I would like to address the popular idea that the Bach cello suites are best recorded in a very reverberant space.

I think it needs to be remembered that suites, first of all, were not performed in church during Bach's lifetime. Suites are a collection of dances (minus the prelude) and dances, being "secular" in nature, were considered inappropriate for church. The Sonata da Chiesa (Church Sonata) had no dance movements while the secular counterpart, Sonata da Camera (Chamber Sonata) was essentially a suite, or a series of dances, and would not be performed in a church. While it is not known if the cello suites were ever performed during Bach's day, where they were performed, or who performed them, it shouldn't be assumed that they would have been performed in large acoustical spaces. In fact, it is entirely possible that they would have been performed for a small group of friends in a more intimate setting.

Regarding the many recordings of the Bach Cello Suites, many famous releases are not recorded in reverberant spaces. The Pierre Founier recording is on the dry side but is one of the most beloved recordings made of the suites. The Starker recording by Mercury Living Presence in the 1960s was recorded in a ballroom and has a room acoustic, albeit somewhat live. I think there is room for both types of recordings - the very reverberant recordings done in European style cathedrals and the ones that have the more intimate sound of a smaller room.

Just thought I'd put a historical perspective on this!

Sounds like TF

Well said and very good points, Shosty. I would like to add a couple things. There are likely as many or more sound recording approaches or philosophies on Bach cello suites recording as there are editions (I have one edition that compares 15 other editions!)

I have heard many recordings which range from too wet to too dry. Historical performance practice aside, I think the reverb is very important though due to the compositional style of many of the movements which have repeated bass notes in harmonic sequences alluding to pedal tones. The performer can make these bass notes last only so long, whereas on an organ, they would surely be sustained throughout. More reverb helps the duration of the notes, but could also hinder the clarity of other voices. In that sense, the choice of the amount of reverb can really make a profound effect on the result of the music.

Mike

Just below average sounding room. They could not afford a proper hall for recording? Royer is a great company , but this clip is a disservice to them. Tiled floor? Well, Bach is awesome, it's hard to spoil that music with bad acoustics.

I think this is completely valid and so I don't disagree with you on that.

If I may add one more thought; regarding having enough reverb for pedal notes, I think it needs to be keep in mind that the point of the unaccompanied works by Bach for violin and cello - especially the cello - is that the counterpoint is implied. So the absence of reverb to help convey pedal points isn't necessarily a detriment IMO. But having said that, I think your point is entirely valid and strikes a good balance.

Just not hearing what you are hearing. I love this recording. I think we are so conditioned to hear Bach with tons of reverb that it sounds strange to our ears when it is missing. But to each their own. Vive la difference!

Just to add to this thought - I spent a significant amount of time visiting palaces, castles or any other old venue that has a so-called music room or ballroom. I was very surprised that - now often (but not always) in an empty state - these rooms were very reverberant. Obviously it makes a difference when furniture, carpets and people (!) are added (though the high ceilings and hard walls do still have strong influence) but my personal theory is that chamber music must have often sounded with more "air" around the sound than we tend to think.

Best,
Dirk

For me, the sound of this cello (as produced by this cellist) is gorgeous, and the engineer has captured it well. We have to be careful not to fall into the trap of the guy who says to a photographer, "wow, excellent photo - your camera takes a great picture!"

I'm with you 100% on the appropriateness of recording these chamber works in a chamber, not a hall. For me the balance is just right.

Fascinating. On another historical note - chamber music moving into the classical era (the following era) would have been performed more and more frequently in the homes of the middle class. The middle class in the 18th century became the primary patrons of art music - not that the upper classes ceased to be patrons as well. It would be an interesting study to look at the acoustics of the chambers of the average middle class dwelling during the 18thc. I imagine they would be smaller and more intimate. But your observation, of course, would be very applicable to the music of Baroque era and to a certain extent, the music of the classical period.

And just to clarify, in my post above I didn't mean to imply that the chamber rooms would not be reverberant. I only meant to counter the idea that the suites should be recorded in a large, cathedral type acoustic.

Glad someone agrees with me here! BTW, I completely agree that the mics (like the cello) are simply tools and we can't credit a fine recording to the equipment alone. I have been doing a lot of A-B comparisons lately between ribbons and condensers on stringed instruments and I am consistently preferring the ribbons.

I do not agree. IMO the Royer mics are never lacking air. In fact we tend to use them just because of that quality.
One remark that keeps coming back from the musicians, when they get to choose between a typical pair of condensers and the SF12 is that the ribbon mic sounds more open and seems to have more HF (!)

I just listened to this recording, it has plenty of air. I would think this is exactly how the room is, minus a lot of problems because of the celverly positioned decca (fig8) tree.

With a normal AB couple of true omnis this would probably sound like crap.

On a side note, I wonder how it would have sounded with the mid mic just a foot further to the back...

A really great recording anyway, a refreshing and striking difference to the numerous overly-reverberant Bach recordings, that all too often have a metal harshness to the direct sound on top of that.

I have also never been a great fan of recording Bach chamber music in churches. Is this because he wrote so much religious music ? Or maybe his music has become too much of a religion ? Or maybe too many cello players are struggling with the counterpoint ?

Amen, brother

All of the above! Also, perhaps some feel that the reverb can help compensate for a less than ideal instrument, which I think it can to a certain extent.

Are you suggesting the halls in Köthen Castle are not reverberant?
This is likely where the suites were premiered, and even if this was not the location of the premiere, it is very representative of the venues Bachs secular music was known to be performed in.

Your theories are not supported by any historical sources I am aware of

Here are some pictures of Spiegelsaal in Kötchen castle

http://www.google.se/search?q=spiege...w=1366&bih=599

Fair enough, it's probably in the matter of taste department. Do we know if these ribbons were EQ'd?

But patently this is false, no?

Thanks for the educated insight. That's refreshing!

KB

Not !

The pictures shown in the link are the present state since the renovation in the late classic era (end of 18th, beginning of 19th ?)
If some Bach pieces were premiered in this hall, the hall must have had a totally different finish, even pre-rococo (1766).
If there were no other refurbishments, the style must have been renaissance at Bach's time...

Yannick, the hall as it stands today was built after Bachs time,
but it is still a large stone hall, similar to the main hall where the pieces such as W.T. Klavier were premiered.
It's current name came after the rebuild.

I believe it is the same space where he often performed, but that is not the point.
I said it is representative of the type of hall, i.e. in volume, geometry and materials.
The discussion is one of reverb time in the secular venues of the period, not style of decoration.

Quote from "bach-in-koethen"
......
Die Aura ist förmlich spürbar und selbst viele Stars der klassischen Musik, die eigentlich eher die Metropolen der Welt gewöhnt sind, empfinden es als Privileg, hier konzertieren zu dürfen. Hier im damals »Alten Saal« genannten Raum über dem Corps de logis führte Johann Sebastian Bach viele Werke auf, darunter die six concerts avec plusieurs instruments, die unter dem Namen »Brandenburgische Konzerte« zu den wichtigsten und schönsten Kompositionen Bachs zählen.
Prächtiger als in der Zeit um 1717 präsentiert sich der heutige Spiegelsaal seit dem Umbau durch Bandhauer 1822. Die entstandene perfekte Kombination aus Raumwunder, Pracht und Illusion diente als Thronsaal und war ein Geburtstagsgeschenk des Herzogs Friedrich-Ferdinand an seine Gemahlin Julie. Das geschickt eingebaute Korbbogengewölbe und gerade die Spiegel sorgen dafür, dass der Raum größer wirkt, als er eigentlich ist. Konzerte hat es zu allen Zeiten im Saal gegeben, wobei er sich in der nächsten Zeit etwas rarer machen wird, denn ab 2011 wird der Spiegelsaal einer gründlichen Sanierung unterzogen.......

Kotchken castle yummy - I want to go to there....

Sent from my Nexus 7

You can't make the assumption that the cello suites would have been performed in the Cothen castle. No one knows why the suites were written or for whom they were written.

Secular music was also performed by and for Collegium Musicum. The main one in Leipzig had performances in Zimmerman's coffee house! When Bach was in Leipzig he was the director and many of his secular works were premiered there. In the warmer months the concerts were held outdoors. Other Collegium Musicum had performances in gardens outside city walls!

Listen folks, not all Baroque music was performed in churches and castles!