Not the best recording of this piece but certainly not the worst I have ever heard.

Looks like they have got a lot of mics but we don’t know how many were actually used.

For all those mics they bought ( a lot of money) it is good to see them being used.

I see an awful lot of older ones. Some younger ones, but an awful lot of older ones, at least in Warsaw. Guys who can sightread Prokofiev, though.
--scott

Many of you will be familiar with this website. (If not, you're in for a treat.)
But in the context of this discussion, I find it amusing that this comparison page is titled "Why we use many microphones" when it's a very conservative number by modern standards.

I really like the omni pair alone on these Rachmaninov samples. The other mixes certainly don't sound worse, but I don't miss the other mics at all when I remove them. Maybe that's just because the main pair is so well placed? Still, 12 spots isn't a whole lot.
http://kazuyanagae.com/20220103OrchMIX/

This is quite possibly the coolest thing I have been turned on to this year.

That was exactly my reaction when I found it. As a pianist, I especially love the piano demos with omni pairs at many different positions and heights.

The same people were involved in this site, which focuses on solo orchestral instruments:
http://soundmedia.jp/nuaudk/

And if you want to go incredibly in-depth on piano comparisons, this project is almost beyond belief:
http://soundmedia.jp/nuaudktua/

Maybe these three links could be a pinned post on the board?

The eastern orchestras are not that good and one has to work very hard in repeated take after take to refine the recording. So it is a myth that the Eastern orchestras like the Yugo-Slave-ian, Romanian, Czech, are good.

Ask anyone who knows. Ask anyone who has used them.

I dunno, I have worked with some pretty good ones. Admittedly they don't have a lot of respect for some of the stuff they are performing (such as game soundtracks) but I have been pretty impressed with the skill even if not always their ability to work together.
--scott

Maybe depends on whether it’s an orchestra comprising a guns for hire/Wrecking Crew assembly of individuals for a specific recording versus an established State or regional orchestra with steady membership ? Might also additional cash, as a performance bonus/incentive, be a factor to induce better playing ?

If you're going to judge the quality of Eastern European orchestras, you must listen to this. It's the finest interpretation of the 8th I've heard, including NY Phil with Lenny and SF Symphony with MTT.

http://www.classical.net/music/recs/.../nxs50533a.php

It's the scheduled vodka breaks.
--scott

That's because the best musicians play in Vienna, Berlin, etc. But some orchestras are pretty decent... and many great soloists come from our parts (I am Slovenian, ex-Yu). But... money... the best go where the career is...

And actually there are some great orchestras and choirs, recording also for Deutche Grammophone and such... our National philharmonic is pretty decent... and we are a 2 million people state, yet we have two clarinetists and a great horn player in Berlin Philharmonic and many more around the world premiere orchestras, which are not merely "Western", but "world" orchestras, comprised of musicians from all around the world...

I am sure the Prague and Budapest, etc. orchestras are not too bad either...

Also the musicians sound like they are standing on each others shoulders there is NO DEPTH to the orchestra. Not my cup of tea...

In November I had the pleasure to meet Kazuya Nagae and his colleagues from Japan at the Tonmeistertagung32. He is the Japanese professor who is putting together these comparisons of orchestra sound and also the other one about piano sound.

A deep experimenter who has good funding and great patience to do all these comparisons. Really, this kind of research would only be done in Japan by obsessives like those involved.

On the piano demos, Prof. Nagae and I decided we really like the sound of the piano when the lid was removed. Some of the examples show that sound.

Fantastic stuff.

No, in fact they quarrel constantly and are liable to go on strike in the middle of your recording.

When working there I have had to fire several principal players and have them replaced.

I will no longer work there since it's not worth it.
I mistakenly worked for cheapies.

That's not a pick up orchestra. That is already a great orchestra.

The movie orchestras are assembled from free-lancers. Often they are college students.

I did a lot of recordings with the piano lids removed (Steinway Concert Grands) but the piano tech was not pleased and asked me to never remove the lids on a Steinway again. So from then on I had him remove the lids which he did grudgingly. GREAT piano tech but rather set in his ways...

This is not a lot of mics, a reasonable approach.

The more I read the DECCA book, the more I know why I really like their sound, also the piano recordings - the properly balanced piano in real space... also pleasant when it gets fff.

In this example I also like the main pair alone and the Schoeps room sound... and the non time alligned mix sounds better to me - the time alligned sounds muddier and not so nice to me, also I wonder how the non alligned mix would sound with a tad more room sound and no additional artificial reverb - which sounds terrible on its own in this case.

Originally Posted by frans ➡️
The microphone is there to witness, not to participate.

???



In the context of this thread, the microphones almost never there to only “witness” and “observe.”

Activist engineers are known to offer a recording with exaggerated detail, overly spot-lit sections, artificial textures, and imagined balances.

The microphones “witness” and “observe” only in a recording that is like a photograph. Something along the lines of a 6 mic recording. That not always satisfying listening since it largely depends on making the recording in a great hall.

I’m a little confused…are you saying that a recording made from well-placed microphones (of whatever number) in effect ‘mixes itself’…and that the recording engineer can simply stand back with folded arms, and let the mics bear witness to a perfect recorded event by themselves ?

Or do you mean, as you’ve said repeatedly in other threads on a similar topic, that successfully getting a great sound involves the active participation and hands-on involvement of the recordist….and you’ve said “that’s why it’s called engineering” ?

It seems you want to back-pedal from that now…to advocate for ‘non-interventionist’ engineering….as a new virtue ?

I think Nick Cave had something to say about that kind of belief, in a different context …many years ago

https://youtu.be/UzpHdHQANfw?si=bdyLAZoEo7ynoL8o

Thanks Hudson, I'll wear that like a badge of honor.
Pity, I didn't see you there while we were making the recording... I really could have used your advice to raise my Janitorial skills.
Funny enough, the Copland Symphony No.3 recorded at the same time was nominated for a Grammy... but those are all rigged, right?
I didn't do the mix for this stream, the house engineer did it, but the commercial discs are out on Naxos.
https://open.spotify.com/album/7qoKarDD0fUqtqyBy6tpNh
https://open.spotify.com/album/12FSnLKyuiQkaT12qq9r5C

As always, YMMV.

In the post cited, I’m reacting to the suggestion that the mics are just there as a witness. No that’s not right and not the way they are used most of the time. Then I clearly state that the only time the mics are a witness is in simple recording where the recording is like a photograph of what is going on on stage. That’s right! The engineer brings up the main pair, brings up the outriggers and a soloist mic and there is the mix. Not always desirable but that’s when the mics exist only as a witness.

Not changing anything about my philosophy. Only reacting to the statement of Frans.

When I wrote that a janitor was involved I wrote that at the mention of the plexiglass and those too many mics. I never even looked at which orchestra it referred to.
So mine is a comment in solidarity with the OP.

Now on a different subject:
As a long time former National Trustee of the Recording Academy, I know that a Grammy means nothing in the classical recording business.

I was flabbergasted when NARAS cut the “Best Classical Album” category—a category we almost always win here in Chicago. Shame on the know-nothing rappers who make up the board. However, my suggestion to you as a nominee is to now raise your day rate and all fees.
Should you win a gong again, likewise raise your rates and fees again.
Otherwise what good is it??

It’s certainly not a measure of excellence.

Much the same can be said of the Academy Awards - stopped watching them decades ago.

The plexiglass dividers are sound shields. The players feel they need them for hearing protection. Nothing to do with the recording.
As for too many microphones, there are a total of 23 microphones in this recording, which is a commercial recording. Is that too many? Mains, Outriggers, Ambience, strings, bass, woodwind pair, horns, brass, timpani and percussion. Seems pretty sensible to me. I might even say it is a conservative input list.
As always, YMMV.

I'd appreciate if you could tell me which mics I don't need in this recording? Strings? Woodwinds? Timpani? Brass? Horns?
It's really easy to sit in the cheap seats and throw potshots. Tell us how you could do it better. Enquiring janitors want to know...

Given that my rates are already at the top of the business, I guess that by that measure, I'm already excellent...
I'm sorry, but this whole thread is a perfect example of the problem with this forum. Instead of positive or constructive input, it's just cheap shots and self aggrandizement. When you are done bloviating, lets go through some of your recent productions so we can all learn from you. You spend plenty of time updating your "Resolution" thread with all the new stuff you have and how great you are, why don't you show us how you make all your amazing recordings.
I'm sorry, I'm an open book. I try to be constructive and helpful. Maybe you should try the same.

Yours in janitorial excellence,
Mark

Not maybe, definitely! I have copied your links and created a new thread that I plan to pin to the main forum!

The new thread includes your two posts plus the related reply posts.

Thanks for suggesting this idea.

This is quite possibly the coolest thing I have been turned on to this year.

Hilarious ! Some of what you write is pure garbage.
As I mentioned, I did not watch the video that the OP posted and I commented not about specifics but in solidarity with the OP. Certainly I agree that 23 mics is not excessive. I took my cue from the OP. I’m not throwing potshots at you. At the time I wrote I was completely unaware of who made the recording on the video.

My commentary in this thread is where I share my disdain for super high channel count orchestral and opera recordings. Sometimes you do those recordings, sometimes the Germans do those recordings, sometimes Shawn Murphy does those recordings. I’m with Tony Faulkner, John Dunkerley, and Onno on this issue.

I don’t bloviate. Bloviating is when one wastes the reader’s time—something I don’t do.

I state my point of view, the reasons for it,
and the philosophy of how I arrived at my point of view.

The “RESOLUTION” magazine thread is an ongoing notebook in response to the 1000’s of PM’s I receive from people writing to me wanting to know what I’m thinking about certain subjects, gear, and techniques. That’s all. It’s factual and pertinent. I’m also an innovator and I tell people about what I’ve discovered. Many are interested.

Yes I know what those are for...it is to "protect" the hearing of the players. I mentioned this in an earlier post maybe you did not see it. I have always admired your work and what you bring to the whole "recording" process. I do think however that today a lot of engineers rely too heavily on doing all the final balances in the mixdown instead of getting the balances correct as they are being recorded.

Most of the live symphony and opera recordings I have done have been minimalist in comparison to what I saw in the original video. I usually have a stereo pair in the middle of the orchestra over the conductor's head and spot mics or section mics as needed but never over 8. And I do my recording directly to two track with no multitrack backup. This is the way I was taught and I still do it that way. Sorry if this seems archaic to you.

Thanks for resolving my confusion Plush…I can see now that what you wrote is consistent with your notion of audio engineering (as a skill), as distinct from a more simple audio snapshot.

Well, it can be that….but not necessarily only that…!

Put yourself in the shoes or seats of the musicians we see immediately in front of those screens.

We don’t know whether those screens were automatically placed there as standard practice, conforming to that orchestra’s employee health & safety policy on hearing protection ?

Or maybe the conductor called for them because, if unscreened, the loud percussion or brass was masking or dominating the balance he could derive from the orchestral forces present, playing as directed by the score ?

Or maybe the players on ‘our’ (ie viewers) side of the screens were unable to hear their fellow section players (or perhaps those nearer the conductor) …due to the louder percussion or brass immediately behind them…and thus made a request for the screens, facilitated with the approval of the conductor ?

Without the use of the screens, a similar diminishment in the volume of the adjacent too-loud instrument(s) could only be achieved by moving them further back in the stage (assuming the stage dimensions even allow this)…which ironically would almost certainly require the use of yet more spot mics, as these loud instruments are now beyond the in-focus zone of the main pair or flankers ! So it’s become a cat-chasing-tail scenario…

Sorry for this extended explanation…but it’s intended to illustrate the multiple thought processes and reasoning involved in deciding whether screens are necessary.

Your glib statement of ‘I don’t like seeing so many screens’ ….accentuated by the close-up cameras only….shows no understanding of the prior decision-making involved in their presence