Originally Posted by Plush ➡️

Despite claims, binaural recordings are for playback on headphones only. Claims by manufacturers and users of successful loudspeaker reproduction are bogus.

Originally Posted by Plush ➡️

Nope. Inapplicable. That’s not binaural reproduction. Your suggested system is at least 50 years old and never had any take up.

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

If a speaker system (by whatever means) results in the left ear hearing ONLY what's recorded on the left channel, and vice-versa for the right, that is all that's required for true binaural reproduction.

That's the entire aim of Transaural techinques:
https://phaidra.kug.ac.at/open/o:11444

(Achieving a Transaural condition for the listener only requires the complex digital processing described in the paper, if one is trying to do it with only two speakers.)

The system I described does this without any DSP. My suggested system is a huge alteration of the "50 years old" one; the only similarity is the electrical connection of the speakers to the amplifier - the completely different placement of the speakers makes all the difference. The time delay from the spacing of the L and R speakers, combined with the opposing-channel anti-phase components is what produces the cross-talk cancellation.

When one listens to a binaural recording on this system (or any Transaural one), sound sources are placed around the listener in exactly the same way as one hears on headphones. It's actually better than 'phones because there is no in-the head sensation for centered sources, as many get with headphones.

The old Dynaquad and Hafler Quad hookups merely throw some difference signal to speakers behind you - no comparison at all.

Originally Posted by Co. ➡️

Isn't one key feature of binaural recording and its reproduction with headphones, to NOT have in-the-head localisation? There shouldn't be anything to be fixed.
Also, what role does the listening room play with this crosstalk cancellation? Does it only work with nearfields or also in larger rooms with medium to large speaker distances? Does it also work with a PA setup with audiences from 50-100 listeners, or even larger?

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

I have no idea of it's effectiveness with PA /large audiences; I doubt anyone would bother to set up a PA system in anything resembling an ITU five-speaker config.

Originally Posted by Co. ➡️

what role does the listening room play with this crosstalk cancellation? Does it only work with nearfields or also in larger rooms with medium to large speaker distances? Does it also work with a PA setup with audiences from 50-100 listeners, or even larger?

Originally Posted by ddy ➡️

one simply cannot get complete separation between left and right front speakers, no matter what the room/hall is - and the more speakers you add, the more the crosstalk you get...

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

If you're referring to PA / sound reinforcement, I'm sure that's true, but if you're referring to the domestic listening environment, I can assure you that Transaural does just that - complete separation between left and right front speakers (that's exactly what cross-talk cancellation does). Again, this only happens if (as with the ITU) all three speakers are equidistant from the listener.

Am I the only one around here who's familiar with Transaural sound? Has anyone read the links I've provided about it? No one has ever heard a Transaural system?

________

Let me put it algorithmically:

The signal at the left speaker can be described as: L + (-r), where the lower case 'r' denotes it being down 6dB, and the '-' sign denotes it being inverted. The way the voice coils are interconnected injects the right channel signal inverted and reduced by 6dB. This inverted opposite-channel signal, when delayed by the wide (110-120 degree) separation between the speakers, is what produces the cross-talk cancellation.

The opposite, obviously for the signal at the right speaker. R + (-l)

The center speaker receives simply L+R.

The rear speakers I described are really just 'icing on the cake', and improves the sense of immersion; the crosstalk cancellation is quite effective without them.

_______

I crudely modded the ITU diagram to illustrate:

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

If you're referring to PA / sound reinforcement, I'm sure that's true, but if you're referring to the domestic listening environment, I can assure you that Transaural does just that - complete separation between left and right front speakers (that's exactly what cross-talk cancellation does). Again, this only happens if (as with the ITU) all three speakers are equidistant from the listener.

Am I the only one around here who's familiar with Transaural sound? Has anyone read the links I've provided about it? No one has ever heard a Transaural system?

________

Let me put it algorithmically:

The signal at the left speaker can be described as: L + (-r), where the lower case 'r' denotes it being down 6dB, and the '-' sign denotes it being inverted. The way the voice coils are interconnected injects the right channel signal inverted and reduced by 6dB. This inverted opposite-channel signal, when delayed by the wide (110-120 degree) separation between the speakers, is what produces the cross-talk cancellation.

The opposite, obviously for the signal at the right speaker. R + (-l)

The center speaker receives simply L+R.

The rear speakers I described are really just 'icing on the cake', and improves the sense of immersion; the crosstalk cancellation is quite effective without them.

_______

I crudely modded the ITU diagram to illustrate:

Originally Posted by ddy ➡️

i appreciate the effort you put into commenting but the reason i say your propsal doesn't work is that i've designed, installed and measured literally hundrets of speaker systems of various sizes, from ambitious home hifi to recording/mixing studios, broadcast facilities, live sound rigs for indoor and outdoor shows etc. and not once i could experience or even measure a significant separation between left and right front speakers, even less a complete separation...

...unless of course you put speakers very wide apart so they don't combine anymore but then the soundfield falls apart.

anyway, what dispersion angle do your speaker have? ime the concept cannot work with 'normal' speakers with a typical horizontal dispersion anywhere between 60-120 degrees.

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

Because clearly you've never installed a system that achieves cross-talk cancellation. Did you see the algorithm I stated? Have you ever installed a system that produces those signals at the left and right speakers with them spaced at the angle stated, in conjunction with a L+R center speaker? If not, then how can you say it's not possible?

As far as dispersion angle, I've used only 'normal' speakers with typical dispersion patterns; the cross-talk cancellation is achieved by a combination of time delay and opposing-channel signal inversion, not controlled dispersion patterns.

Just because you've never heard cross-talk cancellation doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

https://phaidra.kug.ac.at/open/o:11444

I've installed three such systems in quite different rooms and they all produced nearly complete cancellation of crosstalk. The sensation is actually quite uncomfortable with a signal present at only the left amplifier channel (for instance), the sensation is of having gone suddenly deaf in the right ear; the right ear hears nothing of what's coming out of the left speaker because the crosstalk is completely out of phase with the direct sound and so nulls it at the right ear. The wide spacing is just sufficient to produce the required time delay for this null to occur; it's not just putting speakers really far apart, in fact anything beyond 120 degrees apart doesn't result in the correct delay for the cancellation.

The three different versions of this I've done are:
1. Simple passive with wide range single-driver speakers (think Auratone, with much higher quality drivers).
2. Bi-amped 4" two-ways, with the tweeters passive-connected to one stereo amp, and the bass-mids to a second amp.
3. Multi-channel version (which can be used with passive-crossover speakers) utilizing a very simple analog matrix circuit consisting of basic inverters and summers, that produces the required separate signals for each amp channel.

Originally Posted by M50k ➡️

https://phaidra.kug.ac.at/open/o:11444

Originally Posted by Plush ➡️

Binaural reproduction requires ear pinnae. That means headphones.

Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️

My principal concern with most of these proposals is to get clarification (from the clearly experienced practitioners and advocates here) on the following: does the listener need to sit in a precise location within the multi-speaker (ie 2 or more) soundfield, without moving the head and maintaining precise pinnae orientation within that zone ?

If the imaging falls apart or comb filtering destroys the illusion with a slight movement of the head outside of a small central sweet spot, then it’s certainly going to be a non-starter for casual listeners….and also a considerable DIs-incentive for audio engineering types like ourselves ?

Originally Posted by chelgrian ➡️

Yes it’s small and depends on orientation…….

Originally Posted by studer58 ➡️

A little disappointing, but not unexpected….guess I’ll just need to budget for the appropriate accessory, for maximum experience.

Originally Posted by AVSC ➡️

I have mixed 5.1 on a PA system (Somerset House) and lets just say once everything starts bouncing round...maybe best just to keep if for special effects (as Pink Floyd used to do. )