FabFilter Pro-MB - Page 5

bmanic · 1st May 2023

I would love it if we had Pro-C2 sidechain "eq" nodes for each bands free sidechain option, so we could specifically target some frequencies within a broad range instead of narrowing down which is how I do it now. I feel like the highly program dependent dynamics action would be a tiny bit more "natural" if this was an option. As it is now, sometimes when you narrow the free band area you get quite a lot of ringing and probably a lot of phase shift which can sometimes make the compression or expansion react too much on certain frequencies as the phase drastically flips around the cutoff point.

This is why I'm a huge fan of shelves and gentle 6dB/octave filters as the phase shift is so much smaller that it doesn't suddenly make compression trigger unnaturally violently.. not that MB is aggressive though. It's as smooth as butter most of the time but I suspect it could be even better.

I'm also recently a fan of using linear phase EQ within the sidechain of stuff as pre-ring isn't really a problem there, unless you do very deep threshold, low ratio kind of stuff but that is rare within a multiband process in my experience.

dfghdhr · 20th April 2024

When do you think Pro-MB 2 will come out? And what changes and new features are you expecting or wishing for? What do you think Pro-MB lacks now? In what areas do you think it needs improvement? What are its natural competitors in 2024?

Andy_bt · 20th April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

When do you think Pro-MB 2 will come out? And what changes and new features are you expecting or wishing for? What do you think Pro-MB lacks now? In what areas do you think it needs improvement? What are its natural competitors in 2024?

Tonebossters MBC

MogwaiBoy · 21st April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

When do you think Pro-MB 2 will come out? And what changes and new features are you expecting or wishing for? What do you think Pro-MB lacks now? In what areas do you think it needs improvement? What are its natural competitors in 2024?

Dare I say they nailed it on the first attempt - it might be why it's taken so long to 'update' because I honestly I can't think of anything really I wish Pro-MB had.

If I had to really think about it (ouch haha) maybe...
- A simpler way to link bands dynamically
- More accurate auto-gain
- Freely resizable GUI

'Quality of Life' improvements like...
- True 64-bit audio processing (currently 32-bit floating point)
- Realtime/offline oversampling
- Higher than 4x oversampling (ex. x8)
- More than 6 bands... I dunno, do we need more?

dfghdhr · 21st April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by MogwaiBoy ➡️

Dare I say they nailed it on the first attempt - it might be why it's taken so long to 'update' because I honestly I can't think of anything really I wish Pro-MB had.

If I had to really think about it (ouch haha) maybe...
'Quality of Life' improvements like...
- True 64-bit audio processing (currently 32-bit floating point)

I quite agree with you.

I didn't know Pro-MB was using 32-Bit FP to process the signal. I do hope they switch to full 64-Bit FP under the hood.

What do you think about this comment on this FabFilter video:

Quote:

The problem with the Pro MB (which I hadn't realised until i watched this) is the fact that the Pro MB automatically scales the ratio with the range - this becomes a bit of a problem if you want to bring out some low-level detail in a subtle way without over compressing - in mastering for example.

MogwaiBoy · 22nd April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

I quite agree with you.

I didn't know Pro-MB was using 32-Bit FP to process the signal. I do hope they switch to full 64-Bit FP under the hood.

What do you think about this comment on this FabFilter video:

Interesting comment, but Pro-MB is SO flexible and powerful, I haven't had much problem trying to "bring out some low-level detail in a subtle way without over compressing" - the expansion mode in this thing is terrific for doing just that. I'd have to see a clear example and try for myself to see if I get stumped on the same hurdle. I can't think of many times where I've hit a wall and thought "damn, maybe Pro-MB just can't do that". I would suggest to the commenter to maybe combine or swap Pro-MB out with a multi-band transient shaper.

dfghdhr · 22nd April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by MogwaiBoy ➡️

I haven't had much problem trying to "bring out some low-level detail in a subtle way without over compressing" - the expansion mode in this thing is terrific for doing just that.

You bring out subtle details with expansion in Pro-MB? Interesting. I normally associate upward compression with bringing out subtle details.

MogwaiBoy · 23rd April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

You bring out subtle details with expansion in Pro-MB? Interesting. I normally associate upward compression with bringing out subtle details.

Depends what those details are, how much you can isolate them. If for example you have quiet hihats in the background, you can try to bring them out by targeting them with expansion.

Staying with hihats - if you are talking about raising the level of the bits between the hihat hits, like traditional upward compression, then Pro-MB can do something very similar - you raise the band gain and then compress it back down when the threshold is breached by the hihat transient.

In this example I'm bringing out the background detail between the hihats:
https://imgur.com/a/0MQ8514

It just happens to be fairly useless hiss, but hey

This technique can work on more complex material and even full mixes.

With normal compression you compress, and then make up the gain - with this you do the opposite: make up the gain and then compress. Is it scientifically "upward compression" though, I don't know.

MogwaiBoy · 23rd April 2024

[double post - sorry - please delete]

dfghdhr · 23rd April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by MogwaiBoy ➡️

'Quality of Life' improvements like...
- True 64-bit audio processing (currently 32-bit floating point)

BTW, this is from Pro-MB's page:

Quote:

High-quality audio processing algorithms with 64-bit internal processing where needed

Hardtoe · 23rd April 2024

Yeah, I don’t know. Pro MB was pretty good from the start and continues to be a go to problem solver even in these days of all kinds of magic fixer plug-ins. Maybe it’s a case of if it ain’t broke don’t fix it

MogwaiBoy · 24th April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

BTW, this is from Pro-MB's page:

I said "true 64-bit" because Fabfilter plugins output 32-bit audio which is now below the native rate for some DAWs that have 64-bit audio engines (Reaper for one).

Fabfilter said they have no plans for their plugins to operate at 64-bit end-to-end.

It will come, eventually - because that is just progress.

Nothing wrong with 32-bit floating point - we after all count 24-bit audio as "lossless", and 32-bit is much more so. I only pointed it out as being extremely picky, if I had to come up with ways Pro-MB could be improved.

dfghdhr · 24th April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by MogwaiBoy ➡️

I said "true 64-bit" because Fabfilter plugins output 32-bit audio which is now below the native rate for some DAWs that have 64-bit audio engines (Reaper for one).

Fabfilter said they have no plans for their plugins to operate at 64-bit end-to-end.

It will come, eventually - because that is just progress.

Nothing wrong with 32-bit floating point - we after all count 24-bit audio as "lossless", and 32-bit is much more so. I only pointed it out as being extremely picky, if I had to come up with ways Pro-MB could be improved.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point processing. I'm a strong proponent of that. Hopefully they decide that it's a worthwhile endeavor to go full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point for all their plug-ins.

Here are two examples:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

One “issue” would be using 32-Bit Integer audio interfaces like Anubis with DAWs that are only capable of 32-Bit Floating Point signals at their highest. If you want the whole 32-Bit wordlength to be used, you need a 64-Bit Floating Point engine. Period. Otherwise your 32-Bit Integer signal has to be converted to 32-Bit Floating Point or 24-Bit before it can be used by Bitwig's 32-Bit Floating Point engine. The potential problem? Conversions by definition introduce some change. Now you might argue those changes are inaudible and you might be right or you might argue who needs 32-Bit Integer signal when Johnson/thermal noise dictates that even a 24-Bit signal is unachievable. But the fact remains that if you want the 32-Bit Integer signal coming from your Anubis for instance to stay intact, you need a DAW that has full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point capability. And Bitwig's developers so far arrogantly dismissed this point. Keep in mind, almost every other DAW has a Full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point engine. Except for Bitwig and probably a few whose names I can't recall now. But Cakewalk, Cubase, Nuendo, REAPER, Logic, Studio One, Pro Tools all have Full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point engines. It's one thing to say “it's a lot of work and we can't do it now because we're focused on other features”, it's a whole 'nother thing to dismiss it as if it's just a gimmick and be arrogant while doing so. But it's their software, they can do whatever the hell they want to do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

To me that doesn't matter if in the end the DAW is still not an End-to-End Full 64-Bit Floating Point environment. I don't care if a part of a DAW is 64-Bit FP but then in the end the result is represented in 32-Bit FP.

As far as I can remember you can go to settings and set Logic to be an End-to-End 64-Bit FP DAW.

Wrong. Double-precision doesn't mean having the capability of handling both 32-Bit FP and 64-Bit FP signals. Double-precision means having the capability of handling 64-Bit FP signals. Now that doesn't mean a 64-Bit FP engine can only handle 64-Bit FP signals. It just means, as soon as an engine can handle 64-Bit FP signals, it's called a double-precision engine, aka a 64-Bit FP engine.

32-Bit Single-Precision
64-Bit Double-Precision

Wrong again. It's exactly what it means. Another name for 64-Bit processing is.... you guessed it: Double-precision.

MogwaiBoy · 24th April 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfghdhr ➡️

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point processing. I'm a strong proponent of that. Hopefully they decide that it's a worthwhile endeavor to go full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point for all their plug-ins.

I'm no developer but I'm sure I have seen a dev comment that the difference in the overheads on the coding side is literally just increasing how many decimal places points have, akin to "a few clicks".

I think developers hold back not because it's a tricky endeavour to implement, but that 32-bit audio is simply already 'good enough' and the trade-off for 64-bit end-to-end isn't worth the hit to CPU efficiency.

But they're the first to admit in the marketing blurbs that 64-bit internal processing is beneficial "where needed"

Yes, Fabfilter plugins are known for being incredibly efficient - but they also have a strong reputation for 'high quality' - which, let's face it, is sometimes debatable given that they knowingly trade quality for efficiency. Even if that loss in quality is practically imperceptible (32-bit truncated vs 64-bit audio), it does accumulate (rounding errors).

I guess even Bugatti had to make some cutbacks on the Veyron

Some direct discussions on this:
https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/topi...s-embarrassing

https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/topi...nal-processing <---- this is me, I asked them 4 years ago :D

dfghdhr · 24th April 2024

It looks like they've made up their mind. This is the current state of affairs when it comes to FabFilter plug-ins:

Code:


   Pro-Q 3: 32-Bit FP
   Pro-R 2: 32-Bit FP
   Pro-L 2: 32-Bit FP
   Pro-C 2: 32-Bit FP
    Pro-MB: 32-Bit FP. 64-bit internal processing where needed.
    Pro-DS: 32-Bit FP. 64-bit internal processing.
     Pro-G: 32-Bit FP
  Saturn 2: 32-Bit FP
Timeless 3: 32-Bit FP
 Volcano 3: 32-Bit FP
    Twin 3: 32-Bit FP
       One: 32-Bit FP
   Simplon: 32-Bit FP
     Micro: 32-Bit FP

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