Hi, I am actually giving up the UAD ecosystem altogether, even if I manage to get it to work with my coming desktop. I am over it and using two mixers (and a third analog one for extra inputs, sigh, I juggle between that, Apollo and DAW lol - no more).

The thing that puts me off RME is Total Mix. . I actually want to avoid ever going that route again.

I HAVE read the interface latency topic here, many times in fact, but a lot of the testing of the lower rated ones is on very old drivers, and there are many interfaces not included.

Initially, I had 80 live inputs.
42 with 3 Apollo's and Adat interfaces (Apollo8x2 then a Twin as the master controller + 32 channel analog mixer)

I hate patch bays and I have a project template where every single external synth is ready to go the minute I simply click on the corresponding midi track in the DAW. Instant sound and its own channel and multi channel synths were fully catered for as well.

But I am winding down and keeping my favourite stuff and whittling it down to 32 live inputs total.

My next desktop will have no issue having them permanently routed at 64 buffer into the DAW's own mixer, so I can work on them directly there. Simple workflow. If the interface's driver supports going down to 32 sample buffer, even better!

I'll be honest. What I really wanted was Carbon for Pro Tools, but I refuse to go back to Mac, ever, and I think Avid made a huge booboo not making them chain capable with a thunderbolt 3 connection. It's a dead end, that's how I look at it.

I would have happily chained two of those if they worked on Windows, has all the DSP I could ever want (even though it's not needed anymore but it does make for a nice 100% re4call reliability scenario) and I could have used the PT mixer which I really like, it's my favourite DAW mixer cause it's so clean. HD Native is discontinued, that technically would have done what I wanted. The key is to use the Pro Tools and Nuendo mixers to control everything, input monitoring, levels, FX etc.

But they (Carbon) don't work on Windows, and I decided I will never, ever buy HDX. The reason? One carbon is currently 5495 AUD, 1 HDX card with 1 MTRX studio interface is over 18000 AUD. I refuse to be punished cause I use Windows, so AFAIAC, it's Avid's loss.

So I started looking at native interfaces with good Asio drivers.

I really wanted to get two Roland Studio Captures, they were *perfect* for my needs, with 16 on board 1/4" inputs on each device, and two units can work on the same driver for 32 inputs.

SIGH. Can't find one ANYWHERE. And Roland just released yet another driver update for discontinued hardware. Got to respect that.

So now this is where I am.. The dreaded Focusrite? Steinbug? RME?

IF I go for RME, I can get all the inputs I need in one interface (with ADAT, MADI A/D expanders)

Can I set that up with RME so the DAW is the Mixer and controls everything, or do I HAVE to use Total Mix and its DSP, which is kinda pointless as I could have better plugins and DSP with my current UAD and the whole scenario I am aiming for is avoiding external mixers altogether.
If that can be done, then I think a USB RME interface is a top choice as they have good RTL and are known for their drivers.

I am basically turning into a native boy with some choice external synths, most of them Analog bar Integra and Virus, so I am not relying only on VIs. But native plugins all the way, and I can use my favourite UA plugins anyway.

I looked at a VOLT, but they don't come with anywhere near enough I/O, are not chain capable and have horrendous driver latency (typical UAD).

What about Steinbug?
a UR824?
I know, only 24 ins, but maybe I can make it work, and it's a good price. it does have DSP, however they provide native versions of all plugins which tells me maybe it's designed to be both used with its own mixer or one can just use the DAW's mixer?
See with Motu DSP interfaces, you can't really control it from the DAW's mixer,. you have to set all your levels and things in CueMix and then you can record direct to DAW of course, but this is the workflow I am trying to avoid.

Basically I want advice on an interface with let's say, at *least* 24 in analog capability, whether with one or if 2 of them can be used, that has good low latency drivers that can be entirely controlled from within the DAW"s mixer.

I know 2 Quantums would have done this but they are Thunderbolt 2 and I just don't want the headache with Thunderbolt 4 using TB2 devices.

I am open to USB, thunderbolt THREE and up, and even PCIE. I have bought the smallest 4080 GPU (the Asus Pro Art), so the two remaining PCIE slots on my motherboard will actually be accessible. One will be populated with a Soundblaster gaming card (yes, it's a dual use desktop, I am what one would call a hardcore gamer).

Of course, until I can sell my 3 Apollos, and just having spent 7K on desktop and 1440P G-Sync 27" 240hz panel (it's actually got the G-Sync module, hard to find these days), I'd rather the more cost effective the better - IF that's possible. Otherwise I will have to be patient and save again for a few months.

I don't really care what the interface brand is, as long as it can do what I ask re using the DAWs mixer to control it, has solid low latency Asio drivers and works with Windows 11.

I have been out of the interface scene for a decade, as I have used UAD that long and was on Mac till March 2020.

So I really am not sure what to get. As always, a huge thanks in advance!

What do you want to know?

RME USB interfaces with your needs points to UFX II or III. You can hook up one or two Apollo's via ADAT.
With the UFX III you can add a Madi AD/DA converter of your choice and have plenty of IO. Or use a RME 648 for 8 more adat in/out to hook up every Apollo and other converters.
Alternatives would be a USB interface with quad ADAT like Digiface or a single MADI Madiface. Much cheaper and simpler. I don't know how well the USB drivers are but RME are no slouch when it comes to driver support.

Come to think of it. A RME Madiface with a Ferrofish A32 Pro would be possible solution. You even can re-use at least two of your Apollo's via Adat if need be.

I've got my UFXIII running stable at 64 buffersize and also use it for gaming in 5.1surround btw. Since RME drivers allows you to configure DirectSound drivers in stereo or surround. As for Totalmix. You only have to use it for configuring the routing matrix and your done.
If you want some hand on control you can add the ARC USB remote which you can configure the heck out of it and use it as a monitor controller.

Hi, thanks, so RME allows input levels etc to be controlled by DAW mixer? So once routing is set up, I literally do not need to worry about Total Mix? In other words, I can use the DAW mixer to control it in realtime, add native plugins for monitoring and so forth? As long as I don't have to go back to Total Mix to adjust input recording levels or whether to link two mono channels to stereo, for example, I'm happy. I want to be able to create a stereo track on the DAW, assign e.g. for this example let's say input 3+4, and control the level from the DAW.

My routing is simple by the way, I only use ONE output, the first set of left and right outputs for my monitors. That's absolutely it. Is there any reason I'd need to do anything fancy in Total Mix? Wouldn't it be logically set up by default or what do you mean by initial setup? Is there any way you can give me an example?

Correct. What's more, your RME device will come with default configuration that wont require you to do anything unless you really need to.

there is an active low-latency interface database thread on this site. read that to see what choices are available.

For a PC (OP doesn't want to go back to Mac), the low latency USB choices are RME and RME, also RME, sometimes RME as well.

I’m new to TotalMix. My RME has no DSP. Once if figured out the routing I wanted I saved it as a mix preset. Now I do everything in Studio One. If I want different routing behind the scenes (low latency) then I go back into TotalMix otherwise don’t touch it.

Well, by default every ins/outs are routed to the corresponding inputs and outputs. So the way you want to plan to use it should be out of the box ready to go.

It can do tons of stuff more and it's worth while to watch some Youtube vids explaining it since it's quite elaborate.

I concur with fuse that TotalMix can be set-and-forget. I've hidden most I/O in TotalMix settings for my UFX III and reveal only what I want access to. It's a compact virtual matrix router for physical I/O, plus a couple loopback channels for passing audio to/from other apps. I open TotalMix for simple things when working outside the DAW.

But perhaps better, RME offers a DAW Mode for UFX III and probably a few other models. I haven't tried this yet, but from the manual, page 92:

Sky

remeber folks that the direct control ONLY works on Windows ..... there's no direct monitoring on macOS.



I know the OP is a windows guy but there might be people reading who have both.....


TBH it caught me out when I set up my MBP with my RME.... i was baffled why Cubase wouldn't control total mix :(


Also if you're a Reaper user, macOS or Windows there's no diret monitoring either. However..... 64 sample buffer on my PCIe RAYDAT was only a few ms so for once you could actually monitor through the DAW if you wanted.



To the OP, if you want to have simple conectivity between a few different devices then go USB, however if it's for your desktop I'd go with one the PCIe cards.

They're bomb proof and will last you a life time.

I still have on eof the original PCI cards that works perfectly with a PCIe to PCI adaptor after 20 years, and still has drivers for windows 11.

No one wants it as its old so it's in a drawer here but it works great still.

The Steinberg interfaces are great. I've had lots of them over the years and they've all been rock solid and the integration with Cubase is first class. The only caveat I'd say is the performance at 32/64 samples isn't as good as with the RME. By that I mean, yo'll have a higher real time latency for the same buffer size, and you won't be ale to run it on as large a project as the RME. SOund wise and stability, they're great though and I'd recommend them to anyone.


M

How come? I would assume since zero latency routing is happening inside the interface (TotalMix is just a controller), the OS should not matter. (I am on Windows)

becasue there's NO direct monitoring with Core Audio only ASIO.



M

Direct monitoring happens within the interface. OS drivers (core audio or asio) does not matter.

With windows /ASIO the direct monitoring control happens in your DAW so you don't have to have total mix open , the levels come from your DAW channel.

This is NOT the case on MacOS , any direct monitoring buttons are Greyed out in apps like Cubase.... UNLESS you use one of their own interfaces, in which case the direct monitoring menu is available.

here's a quote from RME:

ASIO Direct Monitoring is Windows only, there is no direct monitoring control of TotalMix from Cubase on a Mac.




M

Steinberg interfaces appear to have special feature which allows integration with Cubendo for zero-latency direct monitoring (allegedly, I have not tried it).

EDIT: correction, this is RME TotalMix fx feature (under preferences ASIO Direct Monitoring)

What we call direct monitoring with RME is available on Mac or Windows and is not daw-dependent.

you're not getting the point.

we are talkng about Direct monitor control of TOTAL MIX from the DAW software which is possible in windows (ASIO) but NOT on core audio (macOS).


Trust me I use both daily


M

You are correct, never knew about feature

I have a Motu M6 that’s class compliant usb and gets ~3ms latency with my Mac. It sounds clean and fine. Not expensive.

I had a UAD Apollo 8 before this and wanted something simpler and smaller. If there is a sound quality difference it is not obvious. That said I’m curious about the upcoming Heritage audio 1073 related interface.

Also I did try an RME unit before the Motu. I found their software totally confusing. Call me dumb… like you need to mix things Into the daw. It provides powerful monitoring options but I don’t need any of that.

Totalmix can be flicked into "DAW mode" which simply routes the channels into the DAW with no funny business if that's what you want.

Just took watching a video to totally understand TotalMix. There is a "trick" to it and there shouldn't be - but it turned out to be easy once learned. I also set it up once and now generally never use it in the few weeks I've had an RME+Ferrofish. I do pretty much everything in the DAW like usual.

Not saying you should change your mind or anything - just so others reading know it isn't that bad.

I found a Fireface 802 for 2600 AUD (1700 USD).

The Fireface FS is 1000$ more and only drops the Firewire port (granted I will never use it) and adds some other minor things not needed for me.

I think this Fireface is where it's at.

Or a Quantum 2626 thunderbolt 3.

I am deciding.

Over USB, no one is faster than RME, true.

I found this amazing channel, I now finally know the real RTL of all interfaces I have ever been interested in.

Focusrite and many others very slow, MOTU acceptable, Presonus acceptable, RME blazing fast. I could get away with a Presonus USB and save 1600$ and still have very usable 32 or 64 buffer latency.

I will decide, it will very likely be the 802 legacy that I found.

This guy rules!

https://www.youtube.com/@JulianKrause/videos

One thing I will give Apollo.. As much as I hate using a second digital mixer, it is SO easy to use it's crazy easy.

But I am trying to go from 3 mixers (analog, Apollo, DAW) to ONE (daw).

I read all that, I said that. Many of the new interfaces are not in it, and many that are with bad results are using really old drivers. Hence, AFAIAC, it's not truly up to date.

Will that work with Pro Tools as well? It uses Asio. I have seen a few here mention Cubase, and I must admit that Nuendo is only a secondary DAW for me. I am on 12, I never updated to 13 and don't really plan to as I don't use it often enough.

One thing to be aware of: Julian’s awesome reviews don’t test latency under load.

In this forum there’s the long-running thread showing tests under heavy load, and RME is the absolute USB king.

Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

As long as I can do max 32 channels @ 64 buffer, I am golden.

if I can't do that on a 14700K then it is what it is.

I used to be able to do that on my iMac Pro with the Apollo when I disabled DSP and put the latency into lowest mode for DAW use (you lowered the input buffer, was a setting) and tested it through the DAW at 32 buffer. It worked great, even on OSX. I tried with my old MOTU interface, Firewire 800, on thunderbolt 2 hub on the imac pro, and that worked too for 18 ins at 32 buffer. It only had 18 ins. Remember, 8 core CPU usually not higher than 3.7ghz on OSX

Once stuff is recorded to audio, it doesn't matter so much either.

My biggest project ever would be 100 tracks, and I could pull it off on a core 2 duo @ 3ghz back in the day.

With VI's and effects.

Nothing to worry about.

Remember - everything goes on playback engine once recorded, in PT that's 1024 buffer.

But technically, Quantum thunderbolt is high on that list and gives lower RTL than RME USB.. so..

It's only slightly behind RME but I reckon the speed balances it out.

This is all because I have left the MAC ecosystem, including now getting rid of my iphone ASAP to be totally Apple free, and I left my iMAC and macbook in Feb 2020, had my first windows laptop in March 2020.

And I just decided to build a good desktop that can do hard core ultra ray tracing 1440P gaming (4K is pointless to me for the energy needed) and also good power for audio production.

I hardly use VI's, 80% of my sounds come from HW Synths.

I must admit I had 30 UAD DSP so I barely used to use native plugins either, that is all changing now.

But when I tested 32 tracks through 3 Apollo+ 3 Adat back in the day, through DAW monitoring rather than Apollo desk, at lowest buffer with native plugins, as said, it was fine on the 8 core iMac pro which is very slow by today's standards.

The key is to have a setup on Windows with very low DPC latency. Since I chose the board Anandtech claim have the best DPC, I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.
But as long as you have good DPC, then anything from a 12400 can do 32 tracks @ 64 buffer. I am sure of it.

Then there's render, freeze etc.

PT offline render and freeze is so fast it's a joy to use.

I really think I'd be OK even with a focusrite which is at the bottom of the list, as far as performance goes (not speed LOL), so I am not concerned with either RME or Presonus.

And just to add.. RME is very expensive. Even the UCX II is 3500 AUD and I think that's ludicrous for someone like me who is recording 25 year old synths with D/A of their own and some aren't even 48K let alone 44 LOL and 16 bit converters on some of them is even a luxury. Try 12 bit. The only ones where the audio interface converter specs matter are my analog synths, true. The better converter and higher SR makes sense in that case. But I have a lot of digital stuff still, Korgs, Rolands, Yamaha etc. And some lovely analog too of course.

All I wanted was best bang for buck vs mass input vs low latency

Since I like to work in a realtime midi environment where everything is ready to go, no patching, ever.

This is why I am whittling my collection down to 32 inputs from the current 80. I don't really need stuff like the Nord A1 for example, or Waldorf whatever it's called, and even the Virus TI really. But I'll never sell my Motif/Integra/ and old Korg modules.

ONE interface, only DAW mixer being used, that's the plan.

I can stomach the 2600 AUD for the Fireface 802.

Can anyone at least confirm the legacy Fireface 802 is still worthy vs the new FS?

By the way, i just found out, even with the small Pro Art 4080, I probably won't be able to fit another PCIE card in, cause I am putting the SoundBlaster X AE5 Plus.
I don't want to take a gamble on MME drivers from an audio vendor for gaming.

That's like saying use a sound blaster for ASIO and audio production LOL. Even though they have the driver, it doesn't mean you should. SoundBlasters just work for games, much like RME just work for DAWs

I am very happy with an external DAW interface.

I looked at the RME PCIE and it would cost a BOMB to buy one and enough I/O expanders anyway. Many thousands of dollars.

If I was going to do that, I'd honestly start looking at an Antelope Orion 32 or something which is an all in one.

If you do, you also should check out their drivers. Not a big fan of those.

But yes, RME is expensive. You get good value what you pay for. A few years back when you wanted to get over 16 I/O there was little choice and everything was crazy expensive. That has been changing last and this year. If you look at it as price per input/output it's basic math for how much I/O you need and find a solution that works for you.

As for gaming with RME I say from experience with both the Madi FX and UFXIII that all games run solid in 5.1 as WDM.

Entry price into RME world can be pretty low with a second hand pcie or digiface + ferrofish

TotalMix can be confusing at first (5 minutes) not because of its design, but because of the possibilities the hardware allows.

Anyone in Netherlands need a 2nd hand pcie AIO + io expansions feel free to message me (I switched to raydat).

It seems like you are mistaking Totalmix as similar to UADs DSP-mixing facilities. Depending on the device TM only has basic DSP capabilities which are meant for live contexts or very basic recording.

TM is a routing matrix and all plugins and effects are expected to happen in the DAW. If you just want simple default routing you won't have to touch it. If you want to use the full potential TM has a steep learning curve but there are good videos out there now.

What I didn't get: do you still have the Apollo8x2? Why not reuse them with RME FF?

RME is expensive but in my experience worth it. Stability and latency is top notch, sound is good and support over decades pays itself.

Also with AES24 and Superbooth coming up you perhaps want to wait if there are any announcements.

Btw: I'll take the Nord, the Waldorf and Virus pls (Seriously don't sell them, put them in the attic and once you got more channels hook em up again.)