I see a similar pattern

During the firewire years, more or less only a Mac had proper firewire ports(TI chipsets) and support, and most interfaces worked right out of the box.

On windows it was rare as hen's teeth, in the few desktops and laptops that came with a port as standard was 99% a VIA chip that never worked with audio interfaces(so you had to buy a TI PCI card) and usually as the micro port 1394 which provided no power.

Eventually it was phased out, even though it was (to me at least and on the mac platform) a pretty reliable protocol. Of course RME proved that proper implementation is more important, by providing latencies and stability on the USB 2.0 that were unheard of.

Then came Thunderbolt. On a fashion almost identical to Firewire, on Apple computers it works right out of the box.
If on the other hand you want to build a thunderbolt PC it is even more complicated
-almost no motherboard comes with it built in(apart from 1 or 2 ULTRA expensive ones), rather it 'supports it' by having a Thunderbolt header
-motherboards with 'TB support' are a few and far between, it usually is VERY confusing to understand which is which, and most of the available ones in Europe are VERY expensive
-You need an 'Alpine Ridge' card for the TB header. But from what I've heard so far, not every Alpine Ridge works with every motherboard, I could be wrong.
-Even if you have a TB supporting MOBO with the proper Alpine Ridge, it is not guaranteed that your TB interface will work flawlessly.

Now since TB is owned by Intel, I was very optimistic about it becoming almost as ubiquitous as USB and waited to see something in order to get in the game. But to this day nothing noteworthy happened. So I wouldn't be surprised that another potentially useful and professional protocol will once again be thrown in the garbage can of history.



Your thoughts?

One thing we can all rely on is change to induce consumer spending in a false economy.

Mac users spend money faster than anyone I know

Interesting history of Firewire and its Apple-caused demise (by charging $1 per port licencing when they needed some money) causing it to be dropped for USB 2.0 .

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017...uite-agree-on/

What seems to have been happening with thunderebolt, is another licencing issue.

TB3 required a seperate chipset that a manufacturer had to buy and implement *and then* pay a licence to use. So it was reserved for higher-end x86 compatible computers only (Apple not having to pay a licence ..).

TB4 now is included in the Intel chipsets that surround the processor and so, I guess, doesn't require seperate licencing. It does mean that it's unlikely to be included on AMD based x86 compatible computers.

I'd therefore expect all Intel processor based PCs of all kinds to implement TB4.

Apple says they will keep supporting thunderbolt, despite no longer using Intel, but if Intel dont have a seperate chip for TB4 for Apple to use, then it may get dropped by Apple but stay with PCs??

Haha.. such a daft thing.

Thunderbolt 4 / USB4 still has the potential to be the one port to rule them all. Although dedicated Thunderbolt 4 / USB4 ports are not very common on PC motherboards (except on higher end boards from the likes of ASUS,) almost all recent PC laptops feature at least one Thunderbolt 4 port. For instance, some of the newer Dell XPS laptops feature nothing but Thunderbolt 4 ports.

But as far as PC towers go, you're right. It's slim pickings. PC motherboard manufacturers are just cheap f$cks who will strip out every useful feature to save a couple of bucks.

Basically, PC enthusiasts who want to build their own PC towers are screwed. Their only option for multi-channel audio is pretty much USB 2.0, i.e., the lowest common denominator.

It's insane that RME is charging close to $3,000 for shitty USB 2.0 interfaces. I think a better option is RME's $999 "RayDat" PCIe card which provides 4 sets of ADAT connectors for a total of 32 ins and outs. Of course, you will need to buy 4 Lightpipe audio I/O converters to actually get analog audio in and out of your computer. This will significantly increase the price of the system.

I use the ancient Alesis AI3 converters which are only 20 bit so they are not the highest fidelity converters in the world. But they work fine. But like every used piece of equipment these days, the price for AI3s has probably gone through the roof.

In the end, you're probably better off with the 12 core M2 Pro Mac Mini than a PC tower for music production. The M2 Pro Mac Mini includes four Thunderbolt 4 / USB4 connectors so you have plenty of connectivity options right out of the box.

Read post #24 here from one of the cofounders of RME. https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=37039
I wouldn’t buy anything that only has Thunderbolt unless it was so cheap I didn’t care if I had to replace it soon.

No. I've got an ASRock X570 Creator with Thunderbolt 3 which would work with any number of UAD Apollo's or a used UFX+. Could have the lowest latency possible with any one of RME's PCIe Cards depending on I/O required. Still rocking an RME FF800 with TI-PCI card on the same computer. Beautiful thing. No problems.

Also using the USB 2.0 RME Digiface USB on Win 10 Pro DAW which is rock solid with 66 channels: https://www.rme-usa.com/digiface-usb.html

RME is actually delivering USB 2.0 audio interfaces that "just work" so please explain "shitty" ? At Sweetwater the Digiface USB is $629, the UCX II is $1599 and the brand new Fireface UFX III USB 3.0 is $3199 (downwardly compatible with USB 2.0 at a lower channel count) so which $3000 interface do you mean?

Could be. Or you can get a Digiface USB if you want something more portable. Some of us already have Lightpipe audio I/O converters on hand from previous decades just like you.

Debatable and dependent on your needs. With the 12 core M2 Pro Mac Mini you get to pay through the nose for CPU, RAM or SSD upgrades, keep waiting for *full* plugin compatibility and enjoy arbitrary forced OS upgrades that might bugger your DAW system. I prefer the expandability and customization of a DIY PC DAW.

My last Win 7 Pro DAW worked from 2011-2020 before I upgraded in 2020 to the aforementioned Win 10 Pro DAW.

USB-C has become the power cable of choice for Europe. I expect it to be the most common interface for the next 10 years.

Thank you MrKahuna - that is worth quoting:

"Re: UFX lll
bace wrote:
drifter7508 wrote:
" including thunderbolt (and maintaining the drivers) would probably raise the price even more."

I don't get or understand this. There are many thunderbolt interfaces around under 1000 EUR.
What would make RME's so much more "expensive" than the ones they produced before?

Whatever anyone says, Thunderbolt is better. That's a fact. There is no good reason for not using it.

Chip shortages?

The chip they used is not longer produced. They need to work to get a other chip to work.
So the reason is lazinesses. A manager will argue about costs. It is silly, they still need to have
support for their current TB devices for a other 20 year not to lose their reputation.
UAD, Apogee, Lynx, Antelope are probably very happy with this direction of RME.

________________________________________________________________________

You obviously have no clue what you talk about. Let me give you some facts:

- Intel never wanted audio interfaces with Thunderbolt. They put up numerous hoops to go through for this not to happen, but several companies (including us) managed to do it.

- Intel and Microsoft decided in 2019 to no longer support Thunderbolt 1 and Thunderbolt 2. Therefore using a new laptop with TB4 and Windows 11, a UFX+ (as any other TB1 or TB2 interface) will no longer work via TB(4). Also not when using the known adapters!

- Intel declared the TB3 chips EOL last year. All TB interfaces that one can still buy are made from stock of these chips. One can not buy these chips anymore, so sooner or later all existing TB audio interfaces will be gone.

- TB4 as in USB4 is much too complicated to add it to an audio interface. Specialized chips that would allow so also don't exist. And what would it be good for when 99% of the existing audio interfaces don't even need USB3?

- The Wintel decision to cease support, as dumb as it is, makes clear that Intel sees their interface as a typical computer mass product. After a few years please move on and buy something new...that's not what we (and many others) like or support.

- The current situation is also quite unique as macOS still fully supports TB1, in the latest OS and hardware (M2). The reason is that Apple does not use Intel chips anymore, even TB is now made by Apple, so whatever Intel and MS dream of, Apple can do differently. And so far they do. So the UFX+ (and others) still work on that platform via Thunderbolt (TB4 ports with the usual adapters).

With TB gone as option there only remain PCIe and USB 2/3. And it doesn't look like that will change in the forseeable future.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME"

Matthias is completely full of shit. It's laughable to read his smug, self-serving "explanation" for why bog standard USB 3 is the preferred audio interface technology.

That's news to every Mac user who has been using Thunderbolt since v1 of the technology. The fact is Thunderbolt 3/4 is objectively better than any shitty USB 2/3 connection. Matthias tries to dance around this issue by spouting nonsense that USB 3 is the preferred audio interface connector. That's just not true.

Please point us to some article or paper where Intel claims that Thunderbolt is not a suitable technology for audio interfaces. If not, then STFU.

There is more jitter and latency inherent in a USB connection compared to Thunderbolt. Apple gets this which is why they include 4 and 6 (!) Thunderbolt 4 connectors on their new mini desktop machines and 3 Thunderbolt 4 connectors on their M1 and M2 MacBook Pros. Hell, even Dell includes 4 (yes 4) Thunderbolt 4 connectors on some of their XPS laptops.

Apple and Dell (along with other PC laptop manufacturers) are continuing to move forward with Thunderbolt 4 and will leave RME in the dust if they don't get their act together. I would never pay $3,000+ for a crappy USB audio interface that doesn't even include 32 ins and outs.

I am done with Apple since 2012.
I would never buy a computer with its main SSD soldered on the motherboard.

I was a Windows user, and in the beginning of 2000s I moved to Mac only because of the stability of Firewire and the PT platform. Then I moved to PTHD, and then I also got more acquainted(and enjoyed) Logic Pro.

When Apple started glueing batteries, soldering RAM etc on the motherboard, I simply stopped being a customer. I still keep my trusty 2010 mbp when I need a bit of LPX and to use the drummer but I ain't going back unless I see a change(ain't gonna happen). I guess I could buy a couple of used intel macs now that they are rapidly devaluating in order to have backup machines and not really care.

And I don't care what fanboys say(I do not mean you), this is absolute
b*****ap what is going on with the soldered drives and memory.
SSDs can fail(and have failed me 3 times until today) and I want to be able to replace it myself.

Yes, there is the Mac Pro but this is way above my needs and allocated budget.

Whether we like it or not, Apple's SOC (system on a chip) technology has so many advantages over big, bulky, noisy, hot as f$ck PC towers that most PC experts have seen the writing on the wall. According to reliable sources, before long Intel and AMD will be creating similar SOC designs and the RAM and SSD will be connected directly to the central processing unit. This means that enthusiast PC builds will be a thing of the past.

So you can either get on board the SOC train now or hold on to your legacy PC tower for as long as possible. But sooner or later, your PC will look just like an Apple Mac Studio and will not be upgradeable.

Some corrections to what Matthias had to say.

For security reasons, and early restrictions with the Intel/Apple partnership on TB, Microsoft never officially supported TB1 and TB2. It wasn't until TB3 in 2015 (with fixes in 2018 and 2019, IIRC) that we had any official support in Windows. TB1 and TB2 devices *could* work with Intel and vendor drivers, but we never officially supported them, at least not for audio. The experience also was challenging due to all the different BIOS implementations etc. I know because I was the one pushing for TB Audio support in Windows, and had a number of discussions with the PCIe team leading up to our audio support for TB3.

So, not sure how we can drop support of something we never supported to begin with.

We have docs from last year saying that USB4 devices need to support TB3, but that won't really help TB1/2 devices. But point is, we haven't dropped TB3 support in any way.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...4-57b9e5d7b4f5
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...l-requirements

Over the years, a number of vendors had moved to USB-C ports on their peripherals so they looked like TB3, but were still Thunderbolt 2 or 1 behind that with some conversion, so not really TB3 and so technically not supported on Windows or by the TB4 backwards compatibility requirement.

And we have built-in protection for TB3+ which is part of why we didn't support TB1/2
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...or-thunderbolt

And we have guidance for driver developers to ensure they do things like handle rebalance and hot plug/unplug of TB3+
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...-audio-drivers

We don't have similar guidance for TB1 and TB2 because we never officially supported those.

The PCIe mode for USB4 offers many of the advantages that were reserved for Thunderbolt. There's no backwards compatible requirement there, although it's possible to accomplish. It also gets you out of the more proprietary TB lifecycle and certification issues. But I get that retooling is a huge hurdle.

Officially, from Intel, TB4 is only backwards compatible as far as TB3.
https://www.thunderbolttechnology.net/tech/faq

So TB1 and TB2 devices are still in a "may work, but not supported" state on Windows, as they have always been. TB3 is supported, but I get the issues around chipsets there.

I'm not a member on the RME forum, so I can't correct the same factual misinformation in post 24 in that thread.

RME makes great products. I hate seeing them in a bind here.

Pete

Depends.

Windows runs on Arm64 today. The primary use-cases are servers, and then battery-efficient portable devices.

On the portable device side, we've worked with Qualcomm on the SQ series processors/SoCs.

It's entirely possible (although I have no inside knowledge on this) that the SoCs will eventually be able to be in enthusiast builds. Gaming is absolutely huge on Windows, and it's the primary driver behind desktop PC builds.

Pete

You pretty much confirm what he says, while running around the chip situation.
The TB for audio is a mess on Wintel, and that's because of Microsoft and Intel. Trying to hide that behind nitpicking the statements of a good company that does good work feels disingenuous.

Dude, what's your problem? Pete has always been a straight shooter on these forums and is the farthest thing from a Microsoft/Windows apologist.

If you actually read Pete's post you would realize that the reason "TB for audio is a mess on Wintel" has nothing to do with Microsoft or Intel. As Pete notes, Windows never supported TB1 and TB2. Such devices MAY work on Windows but there's no guarantee.

The real problem is that audio interface manufacturers like RME refuse to step up and add TB4 connectors to their interfaces and instead fall back to the lowest common denominator, i.e., craptastic USB 2.0. I don't give a shit whether it's "hard" to design and build a Thunderbolt 4 interface. Stop whining and get on with it.

not necessarily Apple dropped PCI support and said it was dead.....They HAD to make a U turn on that one....

Modern PC's are NOT noisy. My 7950x is silent, more powerful than Apples offerings for the work i do , but most importantly ( for me) I'm in charge of how big/small i want it to be, what hardware i want to use, basically i have choice , my choice in how I need my computer to work for me. All my old software works on it, nothing breaks with updates(in my experience) so while I hear what you're saying , not everyone needs a small, portable machine. I have a laptop for that, in the Studio I need the equivalent of a 40 ft HGV lorry for hauling a lot of stuff a long way, NOT a small 2 seated sports car , and that's the crux of the matter with Apple.

They make the choices and you have to jump.


I still have a bunch of Apple products including a Macbook pro so I'm fairly balanced when it comes to my views on this, I even run my wife's office on linux and have a linux audio system set up as well on a separate machine.





M

I am talking about desktops, not laptops. I still have as I said earlier an old mbp in order to keep certain things.

I doubt that PC desktops will become unupgradeable in the near(or not so near future). It is an enormous market with GPUs and all sorts of stuff.

Actually my PC desktops never ever broke a sweat or overheated even under heavy load. I think this rumour is mostly due to gamers. I always choose the cheapest possible GPU I can find since I build systems for audio and not video.

In the audio world we are already at a level where latencies and track counts are more than we would ever need, so I see absolutely no merit in the miniscule possible gains that could theoretically be at hand by soldering the main SSD to the motherboard.

The ''Main Drive gone=Computer gone'' to me is unacceptable when it comes to tools(at a time where there is an alternative-if all computers were like that then I guess there would be no point in discussing it).

I loved the Apple platform but I think that I am not their target group anymore. But more power to those who are!

Back on topic, I agree that everyone should move to TB4 or maybe even Ethernet. Even though that USB 2.0 is perfect for most needs, In my opinion the audio world should universally accept a single connection and get on with it, pros and non pros alike.

Has anyone released an interface with TB4 yet? I haven’t seen any new TB interfaces released in the last few years at all come to think of it.

Unless you want your PC to sound like an airplane taking off, you don't have any control over the size of your PC desktop. You need the biggest tower you can get with as many fans as possible and room for a big, loud as f$ck water cooler. If not, your PC will thermally throttle and all your vaunted performance will go out the window.

What are you talking about? There are more configuration options for Mac laptops and desktops than there are for most PCs. Unless you build your own PC tower, you don't have much, if any, control over what components are used in your PC.

And most people don't want to build their own PC desktops. They just want to call up Dell and get something that they know is going to work and that comes with a warranty and phone support.

I don't understand what the below part of the rme quote means.

It seems to indicate that there's some sort of circuit/chip impossibility that precludes future actual tb4.....or future actual usb4 interfaces...from happening.

Which I don't understand. Although I'm hard-pressed to even name an existing usb3 interface. Lots of usb2 on usb-c connectors for sure.

TB4 as in USB4 is much too complicated to add it to an audio interface. Specialized chips that would allow so also don't exist. And what would it be good for when 99% of the existing audio interfaces don't even need USB3?

I think he's saying that a USB4 interface would be too complicated to build. Even though both Thunderbolt 4 and USB4 are delivered via the same cable on most computers that feature Thunderbolt 4 ports, they are still distinct protocols/technologies.

I'm not sure what would make USB4 so complex, but regardless, does this also mean that a Thunderbolt 4 interface would be too complicated?

As an aside, my initial assumption was that USB4 would basically take over since it has the same theoretical throughout as Thunderbolt 4 which is 40Gbit/s.

However, according to the USB4 spec, the standard just needs to provide a minimum throughput of 20Gbit/s (which is Thunderbolt 2 speeds).

EDIT: To me the issue with USB3 and USB4 isn't so much the additional throughput USB4 offers, it's that multichannel USB interfaces (e.g., 32 ins and outs) in general are really flakey in my experience. I'm a busy professional who has a limited amount of time to write music. I don't want to spend that time dicking around troubleshooting my USB audio interface connection.

I don't know how you managed to get that from what I wrote.

I have nothing against RME. They make good audio interfaces.

Pete

This is demonstrable false. There are many products (Cases, fans, CPU coolers, etc.) by companies such as Fractal Design, Noctua, Be Quiet!, etc. that allow you to make your DIY DAW Build as quiet as you care to. Unless you've never built a PC DAW yourself, that statement comes off as disingenuous.

I think music production beginners who are intimidated or don't have the time or inclination to build a DAW are more likely to choose an Apple product.

I think the main Dell users are the general public and business . . with the possible exception of customers of users like Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL) who would use them as VEP servers. You used to be able to find deals for used models on eBay. But then you are talking about the crowd who embrace a custom DAW or who are glad to have a professional system builder bake one up for them to their specs.

Most have not even gone up to TB3 yet. Most of them are still TB2, even many which use a USB-C connector.

The music industry tends to be conservative when it comes to hardware. It makes sense: the devices are expensive, and tend to be kept for years. I think USB and TB have been moving too fast for the industry, with each version adding complexity, resulting in a bit of paralysis. Even USB 3.x is super rare when it comes to audio devices, even though it still works with the USB Audio Class 2 spec, albeit faster.

Or maybe USB2 / TB2 are fast enough for what HW manufacturers want to build.

In any case, at least on Windows, you can build a TB3/TB4/USB4 audio interface and support it using what is essentially a PCIe driver with a couple small additions. That gets a ton of bandwidth. But if no one is providing the device-side chips today (I find that strange, but shortages in other areas are real, so maybe here as well), then that leaves companies stuck.

Pete

and @ chatbot

Don't forget about DAW builder companies. You can get something production-ready, in desktop or laptop form factor, with parts that work together for low latency. No need to build anything.

Pete

Carstens: "- Intel and Microsoft decided in 2019 to no longer support Thunderbolt 1 and Thunderbolt 2. "

Psychlist: "Microsoft never officially supported TB1 and TB2."

How is that confirming what he said? It's the exact opposite.

You might want to read the whole quote, and do it in good faith.

I did, and my point still stands.

If you think there is no difference between a company publicly stating they officially support something and them not doing so then you're in for a world of hurt as far as you and your tech goes. And it's all your own doing.