Microsoft isn't to blame I think. I have a MOTU 16A that can be connected with that Apple TB connector to my motherboard's Thunderbolt 4 connector. I'm not sure if it requires a reboot between connections, but the interface is seen, inputs are made available, and I can use it for work.

I typically have it set up with USB however, but it does work.

So, probably not MS problems.

EDIT:

I just checked the BIOS updates for this motherboard and the latest (that I do not have) reads; "Thunderbolt 1/2 devices will no longer be supported after this FW update due to a change made by intel regarding the update of Thunderbolt firmware to NVM 38."

So again, it seems to involve things outside of MS.

That runs counter to what I've read though I don't have a TB interface to try so I'm just regurgitating what I read on the Internet So it could be wrong for sure and Microsoft is definitely to blame for why we don't have better AVB support on Winders among other things. Hilarious to me Linux is so far ahead in that regard since usually audio on Linux is a trainwreck.

As I understood it, Intel pushed out a firmware update to their TB 3/4 chipsets. This would be well below a Windows driver and cuts off TB 1/2 connectivity to where Windows (or any OS as well as the BIOS/EFI) cannot see the devices.

Apple continues to offer TB 1/2 compatibility because they use their own in-house Thunderbolt chipsets though us PC users are forced to use Intel's at present.

There are some motherboard brands, notably Asus that offer rollbacks of the firmware for their Thunderbolt cards which can revert the TB 1/2 compatibility issue. That's not a "fix", that's a rollback. Intel would have to come out with a proper fix for what they deemed a security issue. Given their current situation, seems like they have other matters to attend to.

All that said, I still don't really want to use USB, but I've been using it for a few days now and it's been imperceptible to when I was running on Firewire without having to deal with Apple's vendor lock-in, Microsoft's apathy, or Intel's blatant disregard. It does represent a path forward even if it feels dated. RME might actually be right.

Curious if things might improve with USB4 (Thunderbolt with a different name, but perhaps less obnoxious involvement and proprietary nonsense from Intel). If not or even if so, my preference is to just throw all these bus interfaces in the trash and use a PCIe card that gives me MADI or AVB. Getting back to MOTU, I really like they embraced AVB and hope that continues. Though having a Windows driver coupled with an AVB-accelerated NIC would be my ideal solution though at present that doesn't exist (on Windows you still need an off-board AVB device, like the MOTU M64, which goes right back to USB.

Could you share information, or a link to any mention that ASUS has BIOS rollbacks to fix the TB 1/2 compatibility issue? I have searched, but have not seen such BIOS rollbacks.

Sure! This isn't the first place I found it but I think it may get you going:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=39433

I found it originally on forum.rme-audio.de (which I found itself from another forum) discussing the Thunderbolt/Intel debacle. So it's somewhere there but the above was the first place I saw it.

I have an ASRock and alas I wasn't able to find equivalent information about their TB card, though it's out of stock everywhere seemingly except eBay which makes me think that perhaps they pulled it from the market (not sure if it was due to this or not).

Update - got thoroughly frustrated with the whole thing and ended up bringing my home setup’s RME Digiface USB to the studio.
The MOTU got re-delegated to optical conversion duties and with the RME as the interface everything works as it should now - setting up headphones mixes is a breeze, no need for web browser silliness, the system is stable and reliable and I couldn’t be happier.

Even tho the MOTU as an interface wasn’t right for me, as a connection box it is really nice.

My current setup consists of two MOTU 24AI interfaces connected to each other via ethernet with the master unit connected to the computer (Windows 11 PC) via USB 2.0. I also have a Behringer ADA8200 connected to one of the MOTU via ADAT. This setup gives me 56 channels of analog inputs feeding straight into my DAW and 8 output channels (via ADAT) in which I'm using 2 for monitoring. If I want to, I could expand this setup with even more inputs and outputs. All of these audio channels streams to my computer in real time via USB 2.0 pretty reliably, which means I can play back a midi sequence of hardware synths and drum machines and have all of their sounds fed through their own dedicated channel which pipes right into ProTools on their own individual tracks all in one pass.

So yeah, USB 2.0 is very much capable of streaming lots of channels of audio with minimal latency. It works great in my MOTU setup.

according to the Wiki on TB. TB 1&2 had no USB, just Displayport and PCIe.

so I would guess that any device using TB1 or 2, is a product existing on a pretty small island in technological History.

anyhow, here's someone tearing down the Apple TB converter.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Appl...eardown/124055

PCIe is the bridge, if you will, off of that "island." There are plenty of Thunderbolt 1/2 docks which include USB, ethernet, audio, etc. OWC even offers their Thunderbolt 3 dock bundled with a standard Thunderbolt 2 adapter, offering all of the same ports but limited to Thunderbolt 2 bandwidth (and without the ability to charge the Thunderbolt 2 host).

to your knowledge, did anyone ever make TB2 based USB Docks ? because it sounds as though OWC might have. or at least decided to make their TB3 based Dock able to be be made backward compatible. which could mean they started production on TB3.

I meant more that any TB2 based Audio Interfaces, may prove to have been more on an island. I assume those would have to go from either a TB1/2 equiped compatible computer dirrectly, or via a TB3 to TB1/2 adapter. so any TB1/2 audio interfaces should have only been produced for a failry short period of time.

so it sounds as though there must have been TB2 to TB3 adapters
& TB3 to TB2 adapters. which if true, must mean there were two sorts of adapters. if I'm interpreting your statements correctly, that is.

EDIT:
from what I can find out, it might be the same apple adapter but used in reverse. so if that's true, you'd use a male to male TB2 cable to the adapter,, then if that plugs into a dock, or something which can get its own power, it can work. so in that case, not just the OWC dock maybe made able to work.

seems to be so. TB1 iMac going to TB3 Dock.

New Motu 16A - as I understand back to CueMix, without the "old" AVB-Browser-Mixer - correct me if I'm wrong
https://motu.com/en-us/news/introducing-the-16a/

New 16a looks amazing. Probably not a deal breaker for me, but I think it’s still 20dB headroom. Addition of a headphone jack makes this really great as a primary interface for a hybrid setup.

I wish press releases like this would include proper photos, I’d like to see the unit from the back side also.

https://motu.com/en-us/products/16a/

Yeah I know this is old man gripes…
But when you have a press release, you could include a couple of photos and maybe even a link to the actual page.

But they did:

” For more information please visit: https://motu.com/en-us/products/16a ”

But on their webpage, it only shows the CGI rendered pictures, not actual photos. I wonder how far from production it is?

I don't think those are CGI images - the front panel and knobs look like they're made of plastic? (I do like the look of the front screen & meters, though)

Listed as "in-stock" at Sweetwater.

Unlike some companies, MOTU doesn't usually announce stuff until its ready to go.

New 16a looks like it is shipping.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ction_products

The new CueMix Pro app provides some basic network-related settings on other AVB interfaces. I wonder if they'll consider firmware updates to make them more fully accessible from CueMix Pro as well? Browser compatibility seems to have been a nuisance with the earlier mixer design, and touch control was never brilliant.

There could be something of a "grass is greener" situation as keeping apps updated and compatible across a wide range of devices isn't trivial, either – but there's no question that the experience can be made a whole lot slicker with naive apps. (Presuming they are truly native and not using React Native or similar.)

Oh, give me a trusty "naive" program! One that reacts.

:-) sorry.
<L>

Sorry for the probably basic question, but what would one use for plugging in monitors? There are no dedicated stereo outs here, would one just use one of the 8 pairs of normal outputs.

The original 16A supported 16 incoming AVB streams. That was my big mistake in buying the 828ES - only four incoming streams. I've had a 1248 on order with Sweetwater for about 16 months now, I wonder if this 16A would meet my needs.

That's typically how it goes, yes. Most interfaces I've seen have mono outputs and you just use out 1 to left speaker out 2 to right for example.

That's one thing that irks me about it (I looked at getting one too before I ended up getting another Ferrofish and a Digiface heh).

My 'lower end' 828x (and the other three before it I owned) has a dedicated main out, but the 16A, 24AI, 24AO, basically any of the 'Pro Audio' interfaces dont. Maybe they figure with all the I/O you can afford to use a pair of them?

8M is the same way. Two solutions: use a monitor controller, or use the Headphone output to your monitor speakers. Unbalanced, but works fine.

I have the “new” 828 and the front panel looks the same. It is not plastic, it is chunky aluminum.

In a rack, the panel sticks out a bit more than other devices.