Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

Also, you sound like a Toontrack employee/endorser.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

"Basically" is a weasel word. +/-2dB is definitely audible. Whether you can hear it or not, and how much you think it matters in a given contex, is irrelevant to everyone else.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

The mere fact that modern software instruments can humanize velocities (and other performance aspects) tells me not only that there's nothing "odd" about programing a bunch of snare hits at the same velocity, but that the software designers EXPECT people to program that way, or are at least accommodating such programing.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

Also, you sound like a Toontrack employee/endorser.

Originally Posted by GeneHall ➡️

In terms of the potential for precise editing and velocity control, comparing SD2 to EZ drummer is a bit like comparing apples to hood ornaments.
They are 2 different platforms that to some degree share a GUI and basic design concepts bu their feature sets set them far apart in terms of real world application. To me, SD2 is a studio VI and EZ is more of a live/performance VI accompaniment.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

As someone who has played on a lot of records, edited a lot of drum sample hits and edited a lot of v-drum performances I strongly disagree. You are welcome to your alternative point of view.

No, I don't think many users at all program 'a bunch of snare hits at the same velocity'. Drum software is ALL ABOUT making an inevitably compromised product as close to realism as possible. That's why drum software companies randomise and humanise their products as much as possible. When you program drums to be 'real' sounding, you generally mimick what a real drummer would do. No studio drummer on the planet, let alone the absolute creme-de-la-creme, would ever play all the backbeats in a song within a 2db range. It just isn't humanly possible.

I am neither.
I have been the drummer being sampled on two or three Toontrack sessions. I have been involved in the editing and processing of those sessions. I therefore know much more than the OP about what has been recorded at those sessions and how the software works under the hood.
My answers go for all the other drum software programmes. Almost all of them are extremely good and often very realistic. You never want to programme a snare beat in a song at one velocity, whether you are using Addictive, BFD, Slate, NI Studio Drummer, or Superior/EZdrummer.
It leads to a fake sounding drum track, as the OP discovered.
My comments are valid for all (competing) drum software. I'm defending the proper use of ALL drum software, not just Toontrack products.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

As someone who has played on a lot of records, edited a lot of drum sample hits and edited a lot of v-drum performances I strongly disagree. You are welcome to your alternative point of view.



No, I don't think many users at all program 'a bunch of snare hits at the same velocity'. Drum software is ALL ABOUT making an inevitably compromised product as close to realism as possible. That's why drum software companies randomise and humanise their products as much as possible. When you program drums to be 'real' sounding, you generally mimick what a real drummer would do. No studio drummer on the planet, let alone the absolute creme-de-la-creme, would ever play all the backbeats in a song within a 2db range. It just isn't humanly possible.



I am neither.
I have been the drummer being sampled on two or three Toontrack sessions. I have been involved in the editing and processing of those sessions. I therefore know much more than the OP about what has been recorded at those sessions and how the software works under the hood.
My answers go for all the other drum software programmes. Almost all of them are extremely good and often very realistic. You never want to programme a snare beat in a song at one velocity, whether you are using Addictive, BFD, Slate, NI Studio Drummer, or Superior/EZdrummer.
It leads to a fake sounding drum track, as the OP discovered.
My comments are valid for all (competing) drum software. I'm defending the proper use of ALL drum software, not just Toontrack products.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

You're not "defending the proper use of all drum software" because that's a bogus concept

Originally Posted by michaelpv ➡️

From what I've read, the point is that programming snare drums to hit every single time at a fixed velocity will never sound realistic.

Originally Posted by michaelpv ➡️

From what I've read, the point is that programming snare drums to hit every single time at a fixed velocity will never sound realistic.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

'Bogus'?
Don't understand what you are saying.
I'm EXPLAINING [how best to program old EZD kits because their humanization feature was rather lacking and/or they didn't have enough samples to implement a realistic humanization regardless of the algorithm] - is that less 'bogus' for you?

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

fixed

Originally Posted by Lenzo ➡️

If I look at most of the Toontrack midi I'm using in the midi editor, which I do for hours on end some days, the velocities are rarely even. The hits are also a little before and after the grid, to the point sometimes that they are too far ahead or behind and need a little correction. I'm assuming that they are not quantizing this stuff or if so, are doing it very sparingly.
L.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

If you want realism, you don't want to program ANY virtual drum kit software with the snare at one single velocity. End of....

I didn't have a problem with the OP disliking EZdrummer, I had a problem with them warning everyone and anyone that it was a rip off, when they based their 'facts' on the misuse of the product. Also, that they repeatedly claimed Superior had similar issues, but continually failed to detail what those issues were, despite my asking more than once.

Yes, I've worked with Toontrack to create several drum libraries - that's why I know how they are recorded (with hundreds of samples per drum). Truth is, my bank account doesn't alter one penny when someone buys a Toontrack product. I just don't want to see 'facts' and 'rules' laid out by people who haven't spent enough time with the product, or are not using it in a way it was intended to be used (in a basic way).
I agreed with the OP that quite a few of the drum packs don't have centred kicks and snares, and agreed that often users are not happy about that.
But anyway.....my comments to the OP are valid for all decent drum programs, from Addictive to BFD to NI Studio Drummer.
Whether you like it or not......

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

A distinction without a difference. Toontrack has paid you to help them create products. Your posts are biased. You're certainly not "defending the proper use of all drum software" because that's a bogus concept, and the OP is indeed using the VI properly. "Humanization" exists precisely to give repetitive programing a human feel. OP compared 2 VIs with the same performance and feels one yields a more realistic, desirable sound and explained why. If he made a false claim about how EZD humanizes, then by all means elaborate.

Originally Posted by GeneHall ➡️

Seriously mate, Crisso is a session drummer and whether it's a gig paying him to record a song or to contribute to a sound library, it's just a gig. Lucky for him he has a drumkit and some mics so he can take gigs like it If you think that any software producer has gifted him with profit sharing or crazy style salaries, or encourages him to defend their product in a thread then I would say you have a few things to learn about how professional musicians earn their living, or you have bumped your head.
I really don't want to single any one person out here or in any circumstance but your rhetoric is starting to sound very personal and attackish towards a long standing member who has contributed much content , here on GS and in music. 30,000 posts is also not auspicious behavoiur, its a willingness to share and relate to potential like minders, not fodder for a snitchy noob to cast despersive remarks about...lighten up man!
None of your tailored attacks geared towards him make very much sense and I don't want to embarrass you but you seem to be merely showing what a novice you are, at least at a social level. It has gotten boring mate, so can you perhaps give it a rest or better yet, speak less and maybe try and learn something from someone who is obviously way further down the road than yourself. I don't have an issue with you personally, but I really am sick and tired of what seems like a personal affront against this man, and equally or seemingly, Toontrack. it is possible to just make your points and leave the personalised dog****e out of it. If you are simply jealous of his experience and achievements, get over yourself and try to play nice with others. Best wishes to you

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

You're blowing it way outta proportion. YOUR post is personal attack

Originally Posted by GeneHall ➡️

Fwiw, my post was confronting, not attacking you. And I do not feel I am blowing it out of proportion. I'm very interested in this thread, and have become tired of your posturing towards another member. Your welcome to construe my post and also ponder it for what it is. Your opinion matters to me and others I'm sure, but the tone you are projecting seems unnecessary and directed at a member whose credentials and opinions seem to bother you. regards

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

"Confronting" is your euphemism for attacking me. I'm a "snitchy, jealous, bothered, posturing, socially novice noob." And I refuted a power poster who's "way further down the road than" me.

You know what does bother me? Someone who thinks their expertise and forum seniority entitles them to make sweeping proclamations in the face of contrary facts and evidence. it should bother you, too.

At the end of the day, op thoroughly and accurately described a weakness in certain older EZD products using a scientifically sound test fully in-line with Toontrack's own user documentation as well as fully in-line with the very purpose of "humanization" algorithms, and found that Addictive doesn't have that same weakness.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

Fwiw, I use SD2, and I use it exactly like chrisso describes.

Originally Posted by Mark64 ➡️

I hope this helps other readers - I just spent the best part of a year figuring the below out!

There are a several major problems with SD and EZd.

1. The kick and snare are generally not centred in either the overheads or the room mics. When I say "not centred" the dynamic range (peak minus RMS level) can be wildly different as between the left and right hand channels, so a simple tweak of the balance control doesn't work. What this means is it's tough to "build" the sound of the kit from the overheads and/or the room mics.

2. The way the sample engine works in default mode is that it randomly pulls samples from the programmed midi velocity layer and layers "2 up and 2 down". So, for example, with a back-beat snare programmed at a constant, say, V=105, you'll get V=105 hits but also some louder hits and some softer hits. I'm not sure where the breakpoints are in the sample layers, but working a little bit over V=100 as your central point, you get "hard" hits of maximum velocity as well as softer "gradient" hits. The trouble is, the sample engine doesn't adjust properly for the different volumes, and even if it did the timbre of these different velocity hits is very different. The result is that your snare is rather variable in level and timbre, and fades into and out of the mix somewhat - much more so than a real drummer.

There are 2 ways to fix this: a) compression / distortion or similar "smoothing", or b) switch (in Superior Drummer) to "Random" only sample selection, which means the samples are only selected from the programmed midi layer. This results in less sample variance, so your snare (and kick etc.) sound more consistent. But there is a cost.

And the cost is - for most pre-EZd2 expansions, there are only two (yes, just 2) different samples per velocity layer. So if, like me, you're generally working on simple rock / pop music with a back-beat and using a snare centred on e.g. V=105, you're basically getting just 2 snare samples for your money. And the resultant snare sounds "tick tock" as it alternates between those 2 samples. And further, snare (and tom) fills sound noticeably "machine-gun-y" because they're only working with those 2 samples in "Random" only mode (which means you have to dig in and edit the midi velocities in your drums fill to force "Random" to select samples from different layers). For Superior Drummer, this is less of an issue because there are more samples per layer - but it's still a problem.

In fact, what I ended up doing in view of the overhead / room mic imaging problems and the above issues with the sample engine, was routing my SD channels to multi-outs, and bouncing the audio files for everything one kit item at a time. And then I'd do a bounce for the snare with "Random" only sample generation for the back-beat and "Everything On" randomisation for the fills, and cut and paste the bounced audio together. And then I'd get to work trying to get a timbrally and stereo-ly balanced set of overhead and room mics for the kick / snare. What a lot of work! I'm a patient guy, but it shouldn't be this much hassle really, should it?

In the end, after it dawned on me that I was really only getting 2 (yes, just 2) usable snare samples every time I bought an EZd expansion, and neither the snare nor the kick would be centred in the overheads / room mic(s), I decided to buy Addictive Drums.

WHAT A CONTRAST!

The snare / kick are for all practical purposes properly centred in both the overheads / room mics: you can build an entire sound just using the OHs if you wanted, or just the room mics, or any combination with the close mics, and it all works as it should do.

Further, the randomisation of the samples also works as it should do. You can have your kick and back-beat snare both at V=105 or whatever throughout the song, and the levels and timbre of the hits is similar but not identical - so it sounds realistic. And there is none of that somewhat naff "tick tock" sound you get with EZd as it alternates between the 2 different layer samples.

And extending this to another bugbear of fast semi-quaver hi hats, in Addictive Drums these sound very convincing programmed at a single velocity (the key is not to have them quantised as semi-quavers - but as e.g. 1/16SwingB - it's worth reading what Roger Linn has to say about the uselessness of slightly randomising the timing of semi-quaver hi-hats, and how getting realism is all down to swing... but that's another topic). Try this in EZd and it sounds, well, artificial. Even in SD (which has additional possibilities like SemiSeq, where a real fast hi hat part has been "sliced" up into individual hits), it doesn't sound as convincing.

It's worth pointing out that the sounds of SD / EZd / AD are obviously different: There seems to be a different philosophy as to how drums "should" sound, and different people will favour different kits as a result.

But before you even get to the sounds, it's worth just pausing and understanding how the sample engines work and what you're actually getting for your money. As I say, it's taken me a while to figure this out, but from the PoV of a sample engine that works as you'd expect it too, Addicitive Drums leaves EZd and SD for dead IMHO. I also happen to prefer the somewhat less contrived sounds of AD, but obviously that's a matter of personal taste (or lack of it!).

Anyway, I hope other readers find this useful.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

Your comments are not only invalid, but directly contradicted by Toontrack's own documentation for EZD as I cited previously, which you predictably dodged.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

What 'documentation I predictably dodged'? FWIW, I'm not 'dodging' anything.

The OP was told by one of the Toontrack boffins that there were 2 samples per velocity in the first generation of EZdrummer EZX's.
You would NEVER want to program a single velocity for any instrument. You might as well use a 1980's drum machine.

In addition, I pointed out that when EZDrummer 2 was released, everyone got a free upgrade for their already owned EZX's. One of the upgrades was a 'sound library upgrade'.
I didn't check, so I can't tell you if that gave users more than one sample per velocity. Certainly, in the recording session, many more than two samples were recorded for each velocity. So Toontrack had that content to offer already.
I asked the OP if they'd ever upgraded their early EZX's - no answer.
I asked the OP what the Superior issues were he claimed - no answer.

I have repeatedly said there is a slight imbalance between snare and kick positioning in the overheads on most EZX's and SDX's. That's 'real world' but obviously not to everyone's taste.

So.... not dodging anything.

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

But don't pretend he was programing drums "improperly" because that's not only ludicrous in and of itself, it's a method condoned by Toontrack's own user manual.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

Where?

And no, programming every snare hit at 100 is NOT THE PROPER use of the software. NOT how it is designed to be used. NOT how the provided midi is programmed. And NOT how 99.9% of other users programme their drums.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

Nooo.
The software ISN'T designed for every snare hit to be 100 velocity. Toontrack are not inviting anyone to use it that way. That is a misuse of the software.
The humanization features are to make the sounds even more humanlike, simple as that.
The Toontrack provided midi never has a repeated hit at the same exact velocity - which proves my point.

Look.... some simple points you seem to keep dancing around.....

Someone told the OP that a single velocity has only two samples in early EZdrummer packs.
This does not apply to EZD2 which has been out for nearly three years.
Also, when EZD2 came out, all EZD1 owners were given a free sound library update.

Second, yes, many Toontrack products (and probably others) don't have the snare drum or bass drum exactly centred in the overheads. This is a fact of real world recording. But yes, it can be annoying for people, and can be fixed by sampling the bass drum and snare separatly (moving the mics).

Third, no drum software on the market delivers realistic, humanistic, drum sounds when each hit is programmed at one velocity (like 100). That's not how drummers play!!!

Originally Posted by jscomposer ➡️

Telling him to manually vary (humanize) his MIDI programing so that Toontrack would then humanize it "even more" is the opposite of what he's trying to achieve. And who are you to dictate someone's taste or musical goals? That's what makes your posts so ridiculous, on top of being empirically false.

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

NONE of my Toontrack midi has consecutive hits at the same velocity.
I guess if you're trawling through the metal midi it looks like they are hitting the max (126-127) a lot of the time.

As to the quote from the manual... you really took the invite to make your Toontrack drums sound like a machine that seriously?????

Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️

No.
You generally only achieve consecutive hits at the same velocity when you paint them in to a piano roll.
I think a lot of people, probably most, start out with drummer generated midi (like Toontrack's provided midi or groove monkey).
If you are programming drums with a keyboard, or using drummer created midi, it's very hard to end up with every hit at the same velocity - unless of course you are pummelling the keyboard or v-drums and end up with everything at 126-127.

You continue to want to make this personal...
Whatever, I'm just a drummer, drum software co-producer and drum sampler. At no point in this thread have I 'told' the OP what to do. I just pointed out that real HUMAN drummers never play a single hit at the same DB. Therefore, if your goal is to produce real sounding drums from virtual drum software, you don't want to program your hits at the same velocity.
Simple as that.

Originally Posted by ValliSoftware ➡️

Can you post that MIDI file or even that sequencer project file.
Which sequencer are you using, Cubase, Logic Pro X...?
I'd like to take a look at that.