Hi GearExpertz

I have been suffering with a bad case of GAS caused by ebay and ended with lots of low end pieces like Behringer and Platinum preamps.

I bought an FMR RNP after reading many reviews here and elsewhere trying to get a sound that would make my mediocre voice sound impressive.
No luck lol


The question is this - is something like an SEZ3300 going through an FMR RNP and then into a Yamaha AW1600 MULTITRACK with onboard compressor considered a high end chain?
[my TC C300 compressor stopped working one day and my dBX M6 was so so]


If not what needs to change to make me sound like Bono - apart from a total body transplant and talent implant therapy?hehhehheh


Or a simpler question is - are the FMR RNP and Z3300 high end or low end

Thanks
Drak

In a word, No. Not high end. Sorry.

Does that include the SE Z3300?

Your answer is encouraging a GAS attack
Can you say where high end starts - are we talking Grace 101, Focusrite 220 or SPL goldmike, SPL Channel 1, DAV - or is it only high end once you get to Chandler, Neve , etc
With regards to mics - where does one consider high end to begin? C414?
Thanks

Christ almighty.

YES YES YES. If you make good sounds with it, absodamnlutely. the equipment is irrelevant, largely.

it is the engineer who is "high end" or "sucks"

Could not disagree more...
GEAR is either on the high end scale or not..
FMR is NOT...
NO way...

Ditto 100X...BUT equipment helps abit =].....try a daking mic pre one and a decent converter like an echo......if you dont hear a difference with that then....QUIT YOUR JOB !!!! heh

Being able to squeeze a good sound sound out of a certain piece of gear does not make the gear high end...
It shows the engineer knows what to do...

The RNP is an extremely well designed product in my opinion having toured the facility where they are manufactured and talking with Mark about his design implementation - that is original and very well thought out. The price on his products are lower since he is a great designer and is designing it to be that way. Surely - the meat in the FMR camp doesn't offer any "boutique" fetish appeal, but it does offer pro quality, at prices that won't make your wallet wince. FMR believes that quality and sonic performance does not have to be expensive. Having used all of Marks Products - I applaud him for addressing this with a realistic approach to the ever evolving economy of engineers and their tool sets. At the end of the day, I think its up for debate and I would concede the stuff sounds great for short dough.

It might not be considered high end, or cost over a thousand dollars, but I have made several great recordings with an RNP

No doubt.. it's not bad, and good for the price...Mackie is good for the price IMHO...
IM saying that is NOT high end in my book...

This sub forum is about high end gear. Not about how well you can use any piece of gear. Yeah you can do great things with lets say an ART VLA. In fact that is a total sleeper piece of gear that rocks but it is not high end. In fact it is very much talked about BECAUSE its NOT high end and it still operates in such a great way and "sounds" (very transparent) good.

FMR is NOT high end gear. Nor is Mackie.
Put it this way. Most high end gear is expensive. That's kind of the reality. There is a small percentage of gear that is high end and not expensive. Of course that is not what makes high end gear high end. What do you think makes high end gear "High end"?

As to your questiion that really makes a difference, I would say that you could achieve a very good sound with what you have.

I only know the RNP of the pieces you mentioned, I never used that mic nor the yamaha, but I agree that a good room and a good engineer is what make a good singer sound at least as good as he/she actually is, hopefully, will enhance the performance and perfectly mix it in the song.

With that said, gear will not magically mix your vocals for you but good gear make things easier for sure.

The RNP is a very good preamp and definitely that can't be the cause of a bad sounding recording, that's for sure. I agree that all FMR geat - I have everything they made 'cept for the PBC which I'll probably get at some point - is very well sounding regardless of how much the price tag is, hi-end is just a word, a definition one uses to identify certain pieces, it has been said several times, an API pre is 6/700 bucks and it's hi end, a U87 which is around 2.5K can be considered not hi-end (even tho' it sounds funny to me) because there are mics out there that costs 10k..
It's all relative.

Specifically when tracking vocals I think the right mic is much more important than the pre, again, a good pre helps, but with the wrong mic the best pre will not be able to do much, with a good mic - not meaning hi-end at any costs, meaning the one that sounds right on that vocal - the RNP will do the job just fine.

One thing that I've noticed a lot is this, if you don't own any hi-end gear very rarely you believe that a relatively cheap piece could be the best for a given occasion,
but when you do own hi-end gear and it happens that you pick something less expensive for a session, then that's fine.. because it's a choice.
Experience is the only thing that will tell you the truth in this field, unfortunately is not always possible to try all the gear that we want, but, trying is the only way because
every piece is amazing and every piece sucks, it depends on who you ask

Strange thing to post on Gearslutz, Teddy. You are effectively saying that there is no such thing as high end gear.

If indeed the equipment is largely irrelevant, and engineering skills are all that matter, then this site is entirely misdirected and we're all wasting our time here - we should all content ourselves with a couple RNPs and a Radio Shack cassette recorder, because according to you, our recordings will still be high end - unless we suck as engineers.

IMHO is not the sound that makes gear high end or not since you can make a record with an mbox and an art preamp (if you have decent engineering skills) but the parts that are build in the equipment and the cost of those parts......the FMR is indeed great for the money but if i had to choose between it and lets say an isa one...its not even a debate which one i would choose NOT because of the sound but (WHICH DO YOU THINK WILL LAST LONGER)....................Just my opinion

if you're running around Gearslutz asking people if you're hi end, chances are no, there's much to learn

RNP while not "Hi end" at the yacht club, should give you decent results. Bono into your chain would kick ass

This site is more about the pleasure of describing gear with cool adjectives heh
But I think there's a lot of good inexpensive gear on the market, enough to give anyone the opportunity to make good sounding records.

Let's say if a world class facility is 100% you can get 80% - someone will say 50%, some other 95% - if you're a good engineer and have the strict necessary.
Hi-end is that missing % (and some form of status quo too) that some are of course willing to pay for/can afford it and some other won't, it's also taste.

Am Api 2500 - for example - isn't the most expensive compressor on the market but hell it's my favorite and if I had to have one I'd get that, because it gives me the results that I want.

does it really matter if it's considered high end?
do you like it? does it sound good to you?
That's all that should matter to you.

but I would never use one

Really interesting views here.

There is another way of looking at the same question . . .
Yes granted if you are a good engineer or Bruce Swedien, you could use the RNP/Z3300 and do release grade material with that

Amatuers like me know it will take time to learn the engineering side - but we are also having to struggle with learning our instruments [synths, guitars, effects, DAWs etc] and struggling with our voices, lyrics, songwriting, arrangement etc

A trained engineer probably went on a course and is highly trained to do his job - or will be someone who has spent years honing his craft - which is not a bad thing.

Being an amatuer means you have lots of steep inclines of knowledge to scale [pardon the pun]


And what amateurs wonder is this - if I have better equipment in some way would that at least take the strain out of at least one of the major hurdles I need to overcome?


Is there a minimum chain for vocals for example whereby the amateur [who wants to devote more time to writing and imroving his other musical skills] can say -
'Right, now I know I have a pro grade chain and can't blame or doubt my chain anymore so I need to get on with improving what needs improving otherwise - vocal skills, mic , mixing skills etc'.

So the question is -
What is an example or basic minimum for such a pro- grade chain whereby 90% of people here would say - yep you should be able to easily get pro results with that even if you aren't a proficient engineer??

Thanks

I'll throw at an economical hi end strip:
sm7>LA2A

Your missing a mic pre in that chain there.

Thanks - that sounds handy - been considering an SM7b as it was used on Thriller - and being dynamic would presumably mean that room treatment wouldn't be essential right?

Anyonle else with any advances on that chain?

Yep was just wondering what preamp you would advise with that

lol, I meant LA 610

I've seen them close to 1k new on closeout/discount
There's other preamps you could choose, but getting a decent "hi end" compressor is tough to do cheap

I have gotten fine results with an SM7 (has proximity effect) or RE20 (very limited proximity effect) and the RNP I also have the RNC that 'can' be of some help if you can actually hear what you are recording

.. my issue is usually my recordings sound too much like me.. mic techniques are pretty key.. working the proximity effect .. having a good recording space.

I would rather have your gear in a great room than great gear in an untreated bedroom.

If High-end bragging right are important -NO
If you can't make it sound good, well maybe its just not right for you!

By wide, non-standardized definition 'high-end' means simply that between two extremes in values (example is basic DIY pre-amp for 30$ or boutique box for 5000$) we can generally perceive that there is average price range within which a majority of particular type of gears typically lie (something like 400-1000 $ for preamps).
Above that we might talk about high-end and below just about popular, budget electronics.
It has nothing with possibility to record platinum album without high-end gears and even more it is not associated directly with musical engineering skills.
Argument that music production depends on good engineers skills is totally out of poster's question.
So, RNP is rather low end device (I have RNC comp and don't use it) which can allow you to make good level of typical job done. Actually it is great for price, but I simply expect more from analogue gears (call it last 2%) and it is sole reason why I would use 2k+ box over FMR whenever possible.

Here goes my opinion: your chain is not high end. It's still a good chain, however, and if you can't manage to get a good sound out of it then you have trouble somewhere else: room acoustics, mic placement or your singing in itself. Bono will sound like Bono even if you put him through a Behringer dynamic and Behringer pre. My cat will sound like my cat even if you put him through a u47 and a DWFearn.
Now I'm not saying you're a bad singer. I haven't heard you sing so I really have no basis. I'm just saying that with your mic and pre you should get a good sound, so if you're not getting it you might want to look at other aspects of the recording process.

Hi Oscar - thanks for the reply - if you don't mind I can give you a link to a song I posted on youtube recently - it was a vocal strain for me and there are many mistakes or areas that need improvement - my main question is whether there is a chain that would improve the vocal sound I hear so that I can be inspired to write more rather than angst about the voice not sounding right
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ghcyp7UCNI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-Ghcyp7UCNI?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
and
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FN6t8Oz8mHQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FN6t8Oz8mHQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Thanks

A great engineer will make the MOST of any given piece of gear. But he or she will still be limited by the limitations of the gear.

Put a great driver in a slow car, he will make that slow car go as fast as it possibly can around the track, but he still won't win the race.

Take a fellow like George Massenburg, he would never get anywhere near his audio production goals if all he had was a stack of Behringers for instance. He would make the very best use of the gear, and a musical production could be yielded, but the end fidelity would be WAY below what it could have been if true "high-end" gear was being used.

I've actually heard / witnessed several "professional" albums (by known artists) that had been recorded / produced by talented people but using "low-end" gear... and the final product indeed SOUNDS that way... the music and performance itself is good, but the fidelity and overall audio quality is HORRIBLE. I will not mention names here to protect the guilty.

To make a truly stellar recording / production, you need serious skills / experience, AND excellent top-notch gear.... need it all.

Though, I suppose with some genres maybe you an get away with "low-fidelity" gear, but this is less common. Chances are, with MOST genres, if your goal is to yield a truly gripping, exciting, stellar production, you WILL need to be using "high-end" gear.

Note to the OP... some folks will claim that, for a novice, it is better to use low-end gear because it then forces you to try harder to yield a great end result etc. But I totally disagree with that. Low-end gear can only be looked at as a stumbling block that slows you down, novice or otherwise. It will just cause frustration and you'll waste time. This would be like giving cheap, crappy tools to a novice carpenter... it will only cause you to make a mess, you will NOT get better at carpentry by using cheap, crappy tools. Same with music.

In my opinion, if you can afford it, get your hands on GOOD gear and spend a lot of time working with it, experimenting, making recordings, etc... that's how you'll get good. Your ears will soon develop to appreciate the good gear and what it can do, otherwise you're just spinning your wheels so to speak. The most important aspect to improving as a recordist is developing your ears, and your ears surely are not going to develop very fast if you are using low-end gear all the time. You need to be listening to and working with "real-deal" equipment.

That's my opinon anyway.

While I just found out from another GS thread that I'm a total windbag and fraud --- that my 30+ years and engineering experience, gold/platinum award plaques and such are complete bullshit -- I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the considerably more knowledgeable "gearslutz" gurus who have posted on this thread.

The FMR "RNP" is one of the finest microphone pre-amps this fraud has ever had the pleasure of using. It is as clean and clear as a Hardy - as vibrant as a GML - as quiet as a Gordon, and has more balls than a Millennia.

I would like to personally apologize on behalf of FMR [with whom I have zero affiliation than infinite respect for Mark McQuilken (the designer)] that they have managed to manufacture an exceptionally high quality pre-amp / DI unit for an exceptionally low price tag.

It is a stone bitch that a serious quality amplifier can be built for mass consumption by only cutting a few non-essential corners [vs. the other "budget" units that were designed for a low price while cutting essential corners] will only be viewed as another low end piece of shit because of the price tag vs. the performance.

FWIW - if I had a console's worth of RNP's I could have made much better recordings than when I had consoles worth of SSL and Neotek and MCI pre-amps... but unfortunately the price tag for the units do not support the general Gearslutz consensus that "wooley" is best, and that price is indeed an object.

As a proponent of quality product over shite product [which generally means "gawd awful expensive"] the RNP is a serious breath of fresh air, and is a unit that is not to be tread upon lightly [except for the Guitar Center sales / customer geniuses who know that nothing that isn't expensively sold at the catalog shop or Banjo Mart is worth a shit].

Give FMR credit for one thing - to this point they've marketed their product through independent resellers for well over 15 years when the easy thing would have been to sign up "main stream" vendors [who require greater "margin" than the smaller independent resellers]... and worked their nuts off to keep quality as high as humanly possible, while keeping their "indie concept" of keeping their prices as low as possible [thus eliminating the "majors" who would have to jack the price to make their necessary margin!!].

The larger manufacturers can afford to give that margin to the majors because they make it up in volume of sales [which an entire economic theory I can't be bothered getting into at the moment], but suffice to say that FMR has held quality as their highest priority while refusing to raise their prices to where they should be and accepting "major" distribution channels.

FMR may be the last of the "by, for, and about musicians" companies left in this industry... as we sure as shit know that Waves and Avid ain't in that group but are doing 100 fold the business that FMR is doing.

Peace.