Okay, I'm on a journey to figure out how to beef up my kicks. So, let me explain to you what I've endured thus far.

Okay, so, my journey began probably back in '05 or '06, where I would download mad plugs (compressors, eq's, etc..) with the intent of adding some "weight" to kicks and some snares. That didn't work out too well.

Then, about in '07, I decided to start synthesizing my own kicks, which, was fun and successful to an extent. I learned a lot. And, although I was able to get some great kicks out of this process, they never had the punch and immediacy that I desired.

Then, last year, I decided to buy an Emax I because of the mythical powers of the SP sound and the rumor that one could get that SP sound using an Emax. Needless to say, this didn't help me much either. I was able to get some dirty sounding drums, but not much in the way of punch or what I like to call "weight".

So, after that experiment failed, I decided to try a Sansamp pedal (Bass Driver DI) upon recommendation from someone here on these boards and the fact that I can't afford a PSA-1 (rumored to be the secret tool of some 90's hip hop producers) right now. As with the Emax, I got good distortion and a great lo-fi sound, but not much punch. I can say this unit would be great for those producers who die for lo-fi. It mangles drum loops quite well, and with the blend knob, you can get the right mixture of the wet and dry signal.

Now, I decided to return the Bass Driver DI and get the Markbass Compressore, which, technically is a great unit. It actually uses it's tube to compress the signal rather than just to add harmonics at the end of the signal. Truth be told, it's a pretty good general compressor for other purposes outside of on a bass guitar (which is what it is made for). So, after testing that unit out this morning (and, yes, I know how to use a compressor), I still haven't been able to achieve the sound that I want.

I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to think that it must be impossible to get a nice, heavy drum sound outside of the mixing phase (although I do know how to use a compressor and plenty of other gear, I don't mix). Now, if you ask this question in any hip hop based forum, the de rigeur answer is: Compress, layer, eq. Now, that's good and dandy, but providing that reply is like telling someone that asks you how to play piano to play scales and use chords. Very general. I've tried layering, which, a lot of times creates a very muddy sound due to the conflicting tones of the individual drums.

Now, when I return this last item, I will have some extra cash to play with, (about $200) and I wondering if, in a last ditch attempt, if there might be something I can buy that will help me to this end. Could it be a preamp? A filter? A compressor? I was actually thinking about getting the Liquid Mix 16 and giving the various emulations on that a try? What do you guys think?

Any suggestions at all would be appreciated. P.S. I am a hip hop producer, and I know that asking this question over there probably would be better, but, as all hip hop forums I've ever visited, there are quite a few idiots over there.

1) Click 'Edit'
2) Add paragraphs

Please.

Yes. Paragraphs. Please.

See, I just hit the return button right there, and now this sentence is appearing on another line with a space between the previous one.

And now, another one. See how much neater and easier it is to read? Alright, enough giving you a hard time. Let's go back to the beginning now. Are you tracking acoustic drums, or are you using samples? If samples, then what are you using?

The reason I'm asking this is because there's about a 99% chance that whatever samples you are using ... suck. You can run them through a thousand different processors, you can compress them, distort them, slice, chop and mangle them ... but you can't manufacture something that isn't already there. You can't polish a turd. Use better samples.

That is all.

I would give layering another shot. Use filters/eq to lose to mud.

For a very general example. As a starting point. Get one kick going lofi/distorted and cut everything below 300hz and adjust to get all the grumpy lows out. This will be for attack only.

Then get your next kick (could even be the same sample). and cut everything above 300hz and adjust to lose whatever poofy or boxy mids. Don't put distortion on this one. compress this one to taste. add resonance. Do whatever you do to make it thick.

Blend accordingly.

There are infinite ways to do this. Hell, try ten kicks all filtered away from each other and see what happens! You should be able to get something sick with the gear you got. LPF/HPF each layer is key when losing the mud or keeping lows from getting neutered by extra distortion. Split em up. Make it work.

If you have a little extra cash and a 500 series rack, this may be just the ticket.
According to the guys over there, it can turn an whimpy kick into something something special.




Little Labs VOG (Voice Of God) 500-Series Bass Resonance Tool


...

Theres also a trick you can use by gating a sine wave and sidechaining a kick to flick it open and add some extra oomph. just make sure the attack of the gate isnt quicker than the initial kick. Its pseudo d.i.y. 808 sound.


PS: Does anyone have that link to the vid where they show an SP (i think 1200) on an oscilloscope to demonstrate the signature filtering? I couldn't find it...

I would love to hear that thing. Looks really cool.

Seems like my NoScript plug for Firefox wasn't preventing me from entering line breaks because I didn't allow java on the gearslutz site.

Issue fixed.

Well, as I explained, my not having javascript enabled on the site wasn't allowing me to enter breaks, even if I did enter them when writing the original post, which I did.

Wow, thanks for all that great advice. Don't mind that my record collection is vast and I've actually created my own sounds which are pretty decent at that.

I love the knowledge being shared from you, teacher.

Thank you blarg, great tips. Any specific filters that you would recommend?

I'll check it out. Thanks. Now, my next question would be, where could I find a series 500 rack and how much would it set me back?

i don't have a lot of experience with synth based kicks, but i have recorded a subkick and use it as sample for drumagog being triggered by either my kick or floor tom if i need more oomph. also, for fattening up a track...any track i love the sonnox inflator. aside from that, i love outboard compression for being able to play with a kick's dynamics in real time.

Thanks. I took a look at the inflator. Looks cool. I have heard great things about the Sony plugs.

Research the Peavey Kosmos, Alesis GRIP, Furman Punch 10 or dbx 120.

Api and other companies make them. Buy one used and get it for around 200 bucks. It will pay for itself down the line, especially if you need more 500 series modules.
There are a ton of companies building 500 series modules now.
Best of luck.

Great suggestions. I've already started reading some reviews. Thanks.

Do you own q-clone? I have released a few presets -

Over 2000 free Q-clone presets

Check out the kicks or bass samples - and odd sounds - something there may be what you need.

For the de-mudding, any simple eq/plugin that has a steep cut.

Well, if your samples are so awesome, then why are you having so much trouble getting your kicks to sound the way you want them to?

This isn't rocket science. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't.

Because, as I'm sure you know, quite a lot of processing goes into getting a great kick sound. If it was so easy, then, literally, anyone would be able to get that sound, and, we all know that's not true.

Most kicks lifted from vinyl and stuff don't really have that much low end present, especially not when compared to the kicks present on most current hip hop productions.

Basically what you're telling me is like telling someone who asks why their vocals don't sound as spacious, crisp and upfront as the artists they favor to work on their vocals, when, in reality, those qualities start from the mic and preamp on down to the compressor, eq and reverb, etc..

Or, even better, telling an aspiring race car driver who wants to know why his Ford Focus can't keep up with a tricked out Japanese car in a street race to improve his driving skills.

It's like you're pretending to be giving me advice but you're just patronizing me.

Have you read the other "substantial" contributions others have left?

I think you should be able to find an Electrix Filter Factory for about 200.

I was actually eyeing one of those on craigslist about a month ago. I think it's gone by now, though.

Blarg is definietly taking you down the right road on layering techniques. If you choose to layer, the key is often using each new layer for specific frequency enhancement. Additionally, using a Sans Amp is often best in parallel with the original kick or other kick layers. This way you can dial in specific saturation, "punch," etc. with the Snas Amp tobne controls. Using a gate-triggered signal generator (via sidechain) is cool for ultra low end (for big speakers) or upper harmonics (for little speakers) and you can dial in the amount of sustain for the boom using the hold time of the gate.

So I was able to find a Peavey Kosmos for sale for $175. Don't know if I'll buy it though, it's a hell of a drive to get it.

Now, I can get a Liquid Mix by Saturday or Monday.

Which would serve my purpose better:

A. Digging into the Liquid Mix and creating my own snapshots for getting the sound I'm looking for, if it is at all possible using that unit.

B. Getting the Kosmos, which would probably be more immediate with results.

The Liquid Mix is kind of enticing because I've wanted to try my hand at mixing as of recent, but, I don't why to buy it for that purpose without resolving my current dilemma and impetus for this post.

Let me know, ya'll.

But, when you mention Sansamp, do you mean the PSA-1 or the Bass Driver that I had?

Thanks for the great advice.

Look, you could learn some thing from my advice, whether or not you're prepared to face up to it.

I've been tracking real drums probably since you were in diapers, so don't act like you know all of the secrets to this stuff. I've been through all of the mic techniques, compression and EQ, reverb, pitch-shift, sampling and replacement. I've sliced them, diced them, time-stretched them, drumagog'd them, and lined them up with click tracks, you name it.

And you could learn something from what I've learned: If I want a better kick sound, I can't rely on some processor to do it for me. It doesn't start at the mic or the mic pre. It starts at the kick, and it's NOT easy. First, you have to tune that thing. Then you have to try loosening the heads, tightening the heads, changing the heads, dampen the shell, build a tunnel, try a wood beater, try a felt beater, try duct tape and whatever the hell you have to do to make that thing sound awesome ... right there in front of you, in the room where you sit.

Then, you gotta' get someone who can strike that thing with authority, and it all starts at the source. The source is everything. All of these other toys are just that -- for amuzement.

Now with that said, if you're lifting stuff from old LP's and just need something that can add some missing low end harmonics, then you're going about it the hard way if you're looking for hardware, because plugins will make your life a lot easier. In situations like yours, I've used this one to great effect:

Waves | Plug-ins | MaxxBass

And if you're one of those "anti-waves" guys, PSP makes one that will probably work even better for you, because it already has a feature that generates a low tone, so you won't have to go through all of the extra steps of triggering a sub kick tone through drumagog, etc. :

KVR: PSPaudioware PSP MixBass - Virtual Effect


If neither of these work for me, my last resort option would be to use an 808 sample triggered by the kick -- usually in drumagag. If your tracks aren't separated, then a nice, easy trick would be low pass everything below, say, 90 hz, and use that as the trigger for drumagog ... or use an EQ to sidechain a noise gate with the lowest frequencies of the sampled drum track (which is usually the kick). This is assuming, of course, that you don't have the kick track isolated. If you do have it isolated, then you've got a much easier job here. heh - - And I just realized that Blarg already suggested this very thing in his above post.

If you're not a DAW guy, then you've got some work ahead of you, because this is going to get pretty tricky pretty fast if you're looking to do this strictly with outboard gear, as the title of your thread would suggest.

What he said.

Someone once said this to me - the best way to ruin a track where the kick is important is to use your own/ a weak sample. Using good samples is an art in itself. Finding the sample that meshes with your bass, fits and doesn't overpower the track but really hits is hard enough with worrying about trying to synthesise it yourself. Seriousely, listen to some early hip hop and other electronic music. Doesn't the kick and the low end totally suck?

Also to repeat... and I mean this is so prevalent in dance music your probably doing it anyway, but just to be sure Sidechain a compressor on the bass from the Kick. That'll give your track so much more oompf.

My apologies. I missed that you were using the Bass Driver. I was speaking of the Sans Amp Classic, PSA, or plug in.

One thing not mentioned here that is really crucial in "enhancement" via parallel processing such as gated tones or layered samples is the TUNING OF THE FIRST AND SECOND SOUND (and any additional layers). If the pitch of the original kick is one you are happy with, finding the right pitch for the second or subsequent kick tone layers is crucial, be it the same pitch as the original kick or a consonant harmonic.

Dissonance in a kick either with the bass in general or between the layers of kick tones can kinda jack up your low end particularly if the kick drums are sustained ones. Finding a solid pitch that works with the tune can really anchor the kick in the track. This is especially true with 808 type sounds or fluffy beater type solid double headed acoustic drum sounds. I hope this will be helpful!

i worked with an engineer that did this, but i found that a sampled subkick sound with drumagog worked best for me. now, i guess you could the same with any sampled tone.