My drummer is demanding "authorship" credit for songs I wrote before we met ! - Page 10

Funny Cat · 13th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEA ➡️

I have a completely separate observation to make:

The palpable smugness of many downplaying a drummers contribution to music is a bit nauseating.

After all, a drummer is only contributing rhythmic phrases to a piece. But by the same token a vocalist is only contributing what is most often a very derivative (bordering on plagiaristic) melody and lyric recycled from so many pop songs that proceeded it. Yet copyright rests on melody and lyric.

When you consider how many bands would have failed without a great drummer it comes across as trying to put yourself much higher on the totem pole. Yet drums are one of the more technically demanding and unforgiving foundation instruments. No wonder there was a push towards drum machines and now the more recent "virtual drummers"

To reiterate, this is not to take away from the main issue of this thread, which was that the drummer should not be claiming compositional credit for songs *after the fact of their creation.

100% agree.

I hope none of my comments were interpreted that way since my posts have mostly addressed the legality of a drummer getting writing credit. The genre I work most in is Reggae, while producing mostly for international artists so if anyone understands how important drums can be to a production it’s me.

I think @ kennybro may have gotten the opposite impression from our exchanges in this thread but I’ve always tried to give drummers I work with some writing credit (if possible) and performance credit as composer when I felt their parts made a big difference in the outcome, which has been the case many, many times over.

I’ve also been able to maintain really great relationships with some well know drummers this way and it keeps the inspiration flowing for sure. Of course Reggae production isn’t necessarily applicable to all genres which is why I haven’t commented from that context in this thread very often. Anyway, good points DEA.

joeq · 13th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by llatht ➡️

I would never say that someone is just a drummer. Every part of the music is an important part. I do believe that it's healthy when there is a recognized hierarchy, and everyone knows where they fit in and is willing to play that part. This is true of any kind of a team that comes together.
Pride goes before the fall. That's true whether it is a singer-songwriter who thinks that nobody underneath of him matters, or one of the members of the band who plays more of a supporting role and is unwilling to recognize that.

As a drummer myself, I endorse this message. Plenty of rock/pop bands have achieved success with merely competent drummers, bass players, rhythm guitarists etc holding down one of the 'supporting' chairs. Few such bands have achieved success with a so-so lead vocalist/songwriter. Because that's what most people are listening to.

It's a lot easier to come up with a beat that supports a song if there's already a song there to support.

There is a hierarchy. Even in jazz, where the drummers have tons of freedom, we still don't get half as many solos as the sax players.

sage691 🎙️ · 13th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEA ➡️

I have a completely separate observation to make:

The palpable smugness of many downplaying a drummers contribution to music is a bit nauseating.

I sure hope no one here got the impression that I was thinking this way. Because that is certainly not my view !

Quote:

After all, a drummer is only contributing rhythmic phrases to a piece. But by the same token a vocalist is only contributing what is most often a very derivative (bordering on plagiaristic) melody and lyric recycled from so many pop songs that proceeded it. Yet copyright rests on melody and lyric.

Agree here about most vocalists in pop music. But once again, that surely aint me ! Same goes for the quality and originality of the lyrics.

Quote:

When you consider how many bands would have failed without a great drummer it comes across as trying to put yourself much higher on the totem pole.

Same can be said for the producer/engineers who turn crappy sounding garbage "demos" into amazing sounding famous RECORDS ! Regardless of talent, 99.9% of musicians would get NOWHERE without the invisible genius turd polishers and editors who, through a plethora of hocus pocus tricks, make them sound like the gods they are certainly not. Yet NONE of these producers, engineers, arrangers, etc. are deluded enough to demand AUTHORSHIP credit (registered with the US Copyright Office) on songs they turn into hit records !!
So it's all a matter of perspective when it comes to the building blocks to that monolith called "fame". And hence the reason why historically the LABEL owns the "Master" and makes 50-85% of the profits from the SOUND RECORDING.

Quote:

To reiterate, this ismost not to take away from the main issue of this thread, which was that the drummer should not be claiming compositional credit for songs *after the fact of their creation.

Yep, without a SONG from which to derive those arrangement/production ideas you got nothin - absoluteeelllyyyy NUTHIN !

sage691 🎙️ · 13th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by llatht ➡️

I do believe that it's healthy when there is a recognized hierarchy, and everyone knows where they fit in and is willing to play that part. This is true of any kind of a team that comes together.

My problem has been the opposite, wanting to see everyone as equal when this has never been the case. You put in 99% and someone else puts in 1%, watching you run the race from a distance whilst chasing other goals, like a CAREER outside of music because they lack the faith in both you and themselves, they have a "family to raise", "bills to pay & a wife to obey". Then they see you who sacrificed EVERYTHING for music 24/7, no kids, no wife, no distractions. In disbelief they see YOU, against all odds, pulling ahead of all the other horses in a mad dash to the FINISH LINE. And then, and ONLY then, do they want to swoop in and STAKE THEIR CLAIM (and pretend, to themselves, that we all put in the same effort the whole time, we're all in this together, it's the TALENT that matters, blah, blah, blah). But, of course, only when you actually cross the finish line and are declared WINNER will they do this. Because they are a half opened door, always playing it safe, and music is their "something to fall back on" in case other endeavours don't pan out for them.

sage691 🎙️ · 13th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeq ➡️

It's a lot easier to come up with a beat that supports a song if there's already a song there to support.

I think this is a reality that most often gets overlooked ! Speaking for myself, my songs contain a pretty strict rhythm template in them usually contained in the first track laid down. I've worked with a number of different drummers and in every case they come up with something that fits the rhythm that is already there and accentuate it in a way that is unique to them. As a matter of fact, if they don't do this and fail to flow with what the song is asking for, they usually don't make it on the record. The best drummers ime are those who make the SONG better by not overplaying and trying to show off all the time.

sage691 🎙️ · 14th October 2024

Continuing my RANT from post 274:

IME when it comes to so-called "bands" there is usually one person pulling the cart (the MULE !) and everybody else is just along for the ride. I am referring to UNSIGNED bands here who are trying to "make it", whatever the fawk that means. The irony is that it is almost always the MOST gifted person who is the beast of burden - money-wise, effort-wise AND talent-wise. It is usually the songwriter who expends the most energy and places him/herself in the greatest position of risk both personally and financially. So this whole "split things equally" band democracy concept, where every member suffers and contributes equally during the hard times, seems like a fairy tale to me - I have virtually never seen it in REAL life ! It just seems like some kind of pop culture fantasy people get duped into believing because famous bands x, y, and z portray themselves this way publicly. I have witnessed countless of "unsigned" bands over the years, some very talented and original - and 99.9% of the time the story is the REVERSE of the "band democracy" concept !!!

Ironically, whenever I have witnessed the most malicious GREED and toxic "lack of appreciation" for others' sacrifice and/or contribution, it has been from those who are NOT songwriters or band leaders ! The insistence on "being fair" and "splitting things equally" always seems to come from those who contribute the least, who make sure to be pursuing another career simultaneously as a safety net, and who always have an excuse (kids, family, wife) as to why they can't contribute financially or put in any REAL time ! There's always something else more important than the music at the top of their "to do" list. But they damn sure want to argue about how important their "creative contributions" are, even if they realistically only amount to .1% of the Big Picture.

llatht · 14th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

Continuing my RANT from post 274:

IME when it comes to so-called bands there is usually one person pulling the cart (the MULE !) and everybody else is just along for the ride. The irony is that it is almost always the MOST gifted person who is the beast of burden - money-wise, effort-wise AND talent-wise. It is usually the songwriter who expends the most energy and places him/herself in the greatest position of risk both personally and financially. So this whole "split things equally" band democracy concept, where every member suffers and contributes equally during the hard times, seems like a fairy tale to me - I have virtually never seen it in REAL life ! It just seems like some kind of pop culture fantasy people get duped into believing because famous bands x, y, and z portray themselves this way publicly. I'm talking hundreds of "unknown" bands I have witnessed up close over the years, some very talented and original - and 99.9% of the time the story is the REVERSE of the "band democracy" concept !!!

Ironically, whenever I have witnessed malicious GREED and toxic "lack of appreciation" for others' sacrifice and/or contribution, it has been from those who are NOT songwriters or band leaders ! The insistence on "being fair" and "splitting things equally" always seems to come from those who contribute the least, who make sure to be pursuing another career simultaneously as a safety net, and who always have an excuse (kids, family, wife) as to why they can't contribute financially or put in any REAL time ! There's always something else more important than the music at the top of their "to do" list. But they damn sure want to argue about how important their "creative contributions" are, even if they realistically only amount to 10% of the Big Picture.

I've already stated I believe 100% in a hierarchical structure within any team trying to accomplish a goal. But you seem to misunstand a few things.

1. Being the singer/songwriter doesn't mean you're the most talented. Unless you're Prince and can do all the instrumentation yourself, you are not more talented than your fellow musicians. And this entire thread is evidence that you need their help to get where you want to be. A mature way to look at this is that your talent is specialized or developed in a very specific area (just like your drummer friend).

2. How in the world are you going to chastise other musicians for not wanting to put all their eggs in YOUR basket? Are you capable of financially supporting them and their families?

3. Yes... Family, kids, and a wife are WAY more important than music, and a great excuse to have better things to do and a more stable way to make income.

I think I heard Mike Tyson say that if you don't have humility, life will make sure you get a lesson in it (paraphrased).
It's also my experience that those who make the most noise about something are usually trying to compensate for something. This thread has definitely gone on long enough.

sage691 🎙️ · 14th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by llatht ➡️

1. Being the singer/songwriter doesn't mean you're the most talented.

My rant wasn't just referring to myself. Btw, "talent" is subjective. I never referred to myself as more talented than anyone else. Talent actually has nothing to do with what I was referring to. TIME, MONEY, HARD WORK, SACRIFICE, RISK, etc. was mostly what my rant was about. And also - THE TRUTH !!! If a person cannot acknowledge the truth concerning what their actual contributions are, then that person is living in a self aggrandizing delusion. In any area of life, to expect more than you have earned suggests an innate sense of entitlement. And to those of us who have worked really hard and made the difficult sacrifices that is truly offensive.

Quote:

3. Yes... Family, kids, and a wife are WAY more important than music, and a great excuse to have better things to do and a more stable way to make income.

You speak for the 99.9%, overlooking the .1% who DO NOT value wife, family, kids above their ambitions ! I do not have a wife and kids, and to me that has been a great personal sacrifice. I had to actually reject a few very special women (who wanted kids) because my life's ambitions were too strong. Thus, I had to SACRIFICE that aspect of my life to arrive at where I now reside. Let me be clear: I am not just referring to music now, but more importantly material life in general. So although I respect those who chose to place wife and kids ABOVE their musical aspirations, they cannot expect to get CREDIT for the dehumanizing 24/7 slavery and TORTURE that those of us who sacrificed everything for the music had to endure. No EQUAL sacrifice = no EQUAL RIGHTS. Simple TRUTH !

Quote:

I think I heard Mike Tyson say that if you don't have humility, life will make sure you get a lesson in it

Was Mike Tyson placing a "wife and kids" above his boxing ambitions in his early 20s ? I don't know his story, but I HIGHLY doubt it. His achievements most likely required MAXIMUM SELF TORTURE, MAXIMUM RISK, AND MAXIMUM SELFISHNESS !!!

llatht · 14th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

My rant wasn't just referring to myself. Btw, "talent" is subjective. I never referred to myself as more talented than anyone else. Talent actually has nothing to do with what I was referring to. TIME, MONEY, HARD WORK, SACRIFICE, RISK, etc. was mostly what my rant was about. And also - THE TRUTH !!!

Never once did over the course of YEARS ! Never a gripe from me and always showed my respect for him placing his family first. This is why my reaction was one of utter SHOCK to realize he felt he had somehow put HALF of the eggs into the proverbial basket, as he was demanding HALF legal recognition and thereby HALF ownership !

Agreed. But I do not have a wife and kids, had to actually reject a few very special women (who wanted kids) because my life ambitions were too strong. Thus, I had to SACRIFICE that aspect of my life to arrive at where I now reside - both with music and life in general. No sacrifice = no reward. Simple TRUTH !

Was Mike Tyson placing a "wife and kids" above his boxing ambitions in his early 20s ? I don't know his story, but I HIGHLY doubt it !!!

Look, I'm a singer/songwriter myself, and I'm completely on the side of the person who wrote the song retaining 100% ownership as far as copyright goes.
But your previous post, which may have been a reaction to other posts that were out of line, was itself out of line.
Whether or not your intention was to speak about your own talents vs those who work with you, your statements reflect a poor understanding of people in general. It's not always the most talented guy who puts in the work and finds success. Lots of times, the most talented guy is the one who chooses family over music. The most driven guy (musically speaking) is just that... Driven.
And just because someone writes the song, that doesn't inherently mean they are the more talented person. They ARE the one most likely to benefit from success... Yes. But that doesn't mean they're more talented... Just differently talented. Heck, sometimes the writer of the song is even the least talented, musically speaking, but just has a gift for creativity.

Yes, young Mike Tyson was arrogant. He was the baddest man on the planet and became arrogant, then life humbled him. That's the entire point of the quote.

You can make your case w/o being disrespectful to other musicians who have various gifts and use those gifts to varying degrees. Just because some who play supportive roles get inflated and out of line, that doesn't mean that those who create aren't guilty of the same things. The truth is, it isn't always those who play supportive roles who struggle in this way. I will say that those who become very skilled are much less prone to get inflated than a lot of other people, because they have usually become comfortable in their own skin and don't feel the need to throw shade at other people. That, I have experienced. But skill and talent are two different things.

sage691 🎙️ · 15th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by llatht ➡️

Look, I'm a singer/songwriter myself, and I'm completely on the side of the person who wrote the song retaining 100% ownership as far as copyright goes.
But your previous post, which may have been a reaction to other posts that were out of line, was itself out of line.
Whether or not your intention was to speak about your own talents vs those who work with you, your statements reflect a poor understanding of people in general. It's not always the most talented guy who puts in the work and finds success. Lots of times, the most talented guy is the one who chooses family over music. The most driven guy (musically speaking) is just that... Driven.
And just because someone writes the song, that doesn't inherently mean they are the more talented person. They ARE the one most likely to benefit from success... Yes. But that doesn't mean they're more talented... Just differently talented. Heck, sometimes the writer of the song is even the least talented, musically speaking, but just has a gift for creativity.

Yes, young Mike Tyson was arrogant. He was the baddest man on the planet and became arrogant, then life humbled him. That's the entire point of the quote.

You can make your case w/o being disrespectful to other musicians who have various gifts and use those gifts to varying degrees. Just because some who play supportive roles get inflated and out of line, that doesn't mean that those who create aren't guilty of the same things. The truth is, it isn't always those who play supportive roles who struggle in this way. I will say that those who become very skilled are much less prone to get inflated than a lot of other people, because they have usually become comfortable in their own skin and don't feel the need to throw shade at other people. That, I have experienced. But skill and talent are two different things.

I actually think we agree a lot more than we disagree. Because what you wrote here certainly resonates with me !

I should have been more clear in this thread that what primarily drives me musically is MAKING RECORDS, not just being a musician and certainly not being in a band. Working in the studio on original material, that's where the real passion is for me. And to that extent, I am an obsessed workaholic. I really enjoy witnessing something that only existed in my imagination actually manifest in a tangible form; and when it exceeds the imagination, those are the truly special moments.

It goes far beyond just being a songwriter/composer/performing musician for me.

nice keetee · 15th October 2024

I'd let it go and focus on new non compete tunes
don't let it drag you down...

Moondog007 · 15th October 2024

They are your songs! It's ridiculous what he is asking for. Been down this road before. You can give him 50% of all money earned in gigs etc plus he can share in sound recording rights (don't worry about that unless you make money) The publishing though is different. Someone could take your song and do a different arrangement on solo piano and they would still be paying him royalties. Stupid!!!! Obviously, it's highly unlikely that any money will be there in this endeavour but u never know.

Another way around it is simply to remove the registration altogether and say you will work it out later. You don't need to register anything. You have evidence you wrote the songs. Nobody can take that away. Open this door only if money is made. He has no rights in that situation to publishing anyway. You can share sound recording 50/50 and gigs. That is fair. Ringo came up with signature ideas but he doesn't own the songs of Lennon/McCartney.

sage691 🎙️ · 15th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondog007 ➡️

They are your songs! It's ridiculous what he is asking for. Been down this road before. You can give him 50% of all money earned in gigs etc plus he can share in sound recording rights (don't worry about that unless you make money) The publishing though is different. Someone could take your song and do a different arrangement on solo piano and they would still be paying him royalties.

There are no gigs, never a single one ! Our musical relationship has been one of studio production from day one. That's partly what makes this situation so different from the "band" norm. Though he doesn't like being referred to as a "session musician" that is essentially what he is on these particular songs. It's not ME calling him that either, it's just the plain truth. I'm a session musician also, performing derivative arrangement compositions on my OWN songs. Heck, I reckon I'm doing about 75% of the tracks on the records. I don't like thinking of myself as a session musician either. But it just is what it is !

Quote:

Another way around it is simply to remove the registration altogether and say you will work it out later. You don't need to register anything. You have evidence you wrote the songs.

Aint gonna do that. I always register my songs that I have plans to produce BEFORE the production phase begins. That CD I handed him long ago (recorded before we met) was registered using form SR (covering both "words & music" and "sound recording performance"). Now the songs are finished full blown productions/mixes.

Quote:

He has no rights in that situation to publishing anyway. You can share sound recording 50/50 and gigs. That is fair. Ringo came up with signature ideas but he doesn't own the songs of Lennon/McCartney.

The sound recording was tracked, produced and mixed at my studio. I am 100% the investor. Countless hours, money, torture and time to make a professional "product", not a crappy bedroom demo. Aint no 50/50 split on the master recording either. Name a LABEL shelling out 100% of the investment who would give the performers a 50% cut of the pie without RECOUPING their total investment first ? Answer = NONE !!

A 50/50 split on what is the normal percentage (from the Master sales) for the performers in a label deal - that is all any reasonable musician should expect. And I hear that's around 15% on a good deal (which is 7.5% each in this case) ! At least until I recoup my personal investment which, according to the all-knowing Gearspace psychics here will likely never happen. IF I was able to recoup my investment I would then maybe consider a more equitable split of the Master going forward. But that would be an arrangement outside of the copyright.

veronicaaaaaaaa · 22nd October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

Continuing my RANT from post 274:

IME when it comes to so-called bands there is usually one person pulling the cart (the MULE !) and everybody else is just along for the ride. The irony is that it is almost always the MOST gifted person who is the beast of burden - money-wise, effort-wise AND talent-wise. It is usually the songwriter who expends the most energy and places him/herself in the greatest position of risk both personally and financially. So this whole "split things equally" band democracy concept, where every member suffers and contributes equally during the hard times, seems like a fairy tale to me - I have virtually never seen it in REAL life ! It just seems like some kind of pop culture fantasy people get duped into believing because famous bands x, y, and z portray themselves this way publicly. I'm talking hundreds of "unknown" bands I have witnessed up close over the years, some very talented and original - and 99.9% of the time the story is the REVERSE of the "band democracy" concept !!!

Ironically, whenever I have witnessed malicious GREED and toxic "lack of appreciation" for others' sacrifice and/or contribution, it has been from those who are NOT songwriters or band leaders ! The insistence on "being fair" and "splitting things equally" always seems to come from those who contribute the least, who make sure to be pursuing another career simultaneously as a safety net, and who always have an excuse (kids, family, wife) as to why they can't contribute financially or put in any REAL time ! There's always something else more important than the music at the top of their "to do" list. But they damn sure want to argue about how important their "creative contributions" are, even if they realistically only amount to 10% of the Big Picture.

This is 100% true. It's often times the hardest working people in the office who never get promotion or a raise because they work like a mule and do the jobs of 2, 3 maybe even 4 people at a time.

henryrobinett · 25th October 2024

As a band leader and composer for my band for 40 odd years - yes it is your music. He’s jumped on YOUR bandwagon. If he has come in in the role of producer then yes, he’s entitled to something. You guys can work it out. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. But I’d separate myself from dude. Even if he rearranged some songs and changed the grooves they’re YOUR SONGS. if he wants some compensation cool. Give him couple of points and tell him to F off.

JSchlomo · 25th October 2024

I think everything has already been said.

I will just add from my experience that it really is important to work this out before collaborating. I'm just right now working on a production where loads of musicians are brought in as guests. Each of them so far has played amazing things that by themselves could all be considered important parts of the songs and the arrangement. None of them will get any songwriting or arranging credits because they get paid by track by the producer. These days, I think that's common practice if we're not talking big name artists and/or possible mainstream success.

Coming from the musician side: In one of my musical projects I AM in fact getting songwriting credits although the songs are exclusively written by the main songwriter. But that is due to him feeling I deserve this 'cause without my guitar parts his song would not be what it is. Whether or not that's true, of course I'll take that and am very grateful to receive my 6,60€ streaming outcome at the end of the year. ;-)

DEA · 25th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSchlomo ➡️

I think everything has already been said.

I will just add from my experience that it really is important to work this out before collaborating. I'm just working on a production where loads of musicians are brought in as guests. Each of them so far has played amazing things that by themselves could all be considered important parts of the songs and the arrangement. None of them will get any songwriting or arranging credits because they get paid by track by the producer. These days, I think that's common practice if we're not talking big name artists and/or possible mainstream success.

Coming from the musician side: In one of my musical projects I AM in fact getting songwriting credits although the songs are exclusively written by the main songwriter. But that is due to him feeling I deserve this 'cause without my guitar parts his song would not be what it is. Whether or not that's true, of course I'll take that and am very grateful to receive my 6,60€ streaming outcome at the end of the year. ;-)

That's one of the interesting twists in this conversation:

There are some famous songs where the first thing that pops into your "mind's ear" if I should mention the Artist/Group and Track name is certainly not the vocal melody and lyric

2 obvious examples are:

"In the air tonight" Phil Collins (drum fill)
"Every Breath you take" The Police (Guitar part by A.C.)

I'm sure people could add more recent examples.

Be that as it may, I'm sure we don't want tyranny of the minority - but it is food for thought and this on-going conversation.

Also things may be quite different if you are in a band/creative partnership situation whereby your writing partner "rescues" a song that you were going to throw in the garbage, as opposed to a hired gun session musician who is getting paid up front.

I did work on an album once where the session guitarist asked for "arrangement credits" on the album as the artist had no specific idea as to what the guitar part for a given song should be. The artist was instead expecting the session guitarist to come up with ideas.

JSchlomo · 25th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEA ➡️

There are some famous songs where the first thing that pops into your "mind's ear" if I should mention the Artist/Group and Track name is certainly not the vocal melody and lyric.

Totally with you on that. But as Psycho Monkey pointed out early on, legally a song is just melody and lyric.

sage691 🎙️ · 26th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➡️

He’s jumped on YOUR bandwagon. If he has come in in the role of producer then yes, he’s entitled to something.

Producer ? Well, he knows virtually nothing about the technical side of the studio. Besides songwriter, my role in this has also been the primary producer, arranger and engineer. It was me who had the idea of wanting to track a REAL drummer for these specific songs ! In the past I programmed my own MIDI drums, but these songs I felt were asking for a different approach. That's the role of an arranger/producer as I understand now - the ability to make the right decisions technically to manifest the vision for the sound recording.

Quote:

Even if he rearranged some songs and changed the grooves they’re YOUR SONGS. if he wants some compensation cool. Give him couple of points and tell him to F off.

I would say his involvement definitely went further than just being a session player ! But again, I primarily had the vision for how the finished product of these songs would sound, and more importantly I'm the one with the expertise (and resources, gear, etc.) who labored in the studio for countless hours to achieve that. His involvement likely altered the arrangement/production direction somewhat, but nothing that would warrant him being credited as a co-producer or arranger. He just wasn't there enough and wasn't involved enough to be considered for that - it's totally lopsided, like 95% to 5% if im being realistic !

sage691 🎙️ · 27th October 2024

Quote:

I'm just right now working on a production where loads of musicians are brought in as guests. Each of them so far has played amazing things that by themselves could all be considered important parts of the songs and the arrangement. None of them will get any songwriting or arranging credits because they get paid by track by the producer.

This has been my experience with other musicians in the past, though none really ever asked to be paid cash. They were always seeking time to record in my studio and that was the exchange. I think what happened with my drummer is he got so excited hearing the results we got that he started thinking of it as a band. And honestly I didn't mind that, especially because my reasoning was that it would be awesome to have a band to perform the songs publicly - though that never manifested. Publishing was the farthest thing from my mind back then. I still find it strange that he became so focused on that when for me it hasn't even been on the radar until now.

los marbles · 30th October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

Just wanted to get some advice here. I am a singer and multi instrumentalist songwriter who mostly writes on piano, and also on acoustic guitar. When I met my current drummer I handed him a CD with several complete songs on it. When I say "complete" I mean the entire song structures (chord patterns, vocals melodies, lyrics, etc.) were mostly done from beginning to end, but they were missing drums and bass guitar. He was so inspired by them that he immediately started coming up with drum patterns, fills, and also ideas on where to come in and out. He's pretty good at bass guitar too, so I welcomed him to lay down bass parts. Most all of those bass parts are "supportive" type parts that simply reinforce the rythym that's already present in my piano or guitar. There are a few parts he came up with that could be considered hooks, but they don't really make or break the song - meaning that without them the track would still rock ! We made fully produced recordings of these songs and the end results have been really quite good. As a drummer he's actually quite gifted.

So to make a long story short, he had a nervous breakdown when I told him I copyrighted those songs (using form SR) and listed myself as sole author. I did this because he was handing out copies to friends with label connections, and the songs were still in the early production phase. One semi-famous label actually made an offer to buy the songs outright. It was a slimy, sleazy offer that was written exclusively to buy the songs, not let ME perform them and own the publishing. I refused and used it as toilet paper !

Back to topic: It's my understanding that adding drumming to an already existing song is NOT considered "authorship". Am I correct about that ? Isn't he considered a "performing artist" on a sound recording in this context ? Furthermore, the same songs were copyrighted in the form I gave him originally on that CD that he was NOT on - no drums or bass guitar, just guitar or piano and my vocals, melodies and lyrics recorded to my customized click tracks. So in essence this first copyright was the beginning phase of the production/arrangement process to produce a sound recording, hence the clicks.

Now he is quite volatile and INSISTING that I "amend" the copyright certificate to include him as a co-author. He's always been in bands where the authorship is equally split, so I don't think he really understands what constitutes songwriting in the law. I would like to list him for his "performance" on the sound recording, but there doesn't seem to be any way to do that without also listing him as a "co-writer".

Anybody here have any good advice for me ? How do I explain to him that adding a drum and bass guitar performance "after the fact" to a completed song does not constitute co-writing authorship ? Any links to any good written articles that explain this ?

They are in fact your songs. However…

I recommend paying anyone playing on “your songs”. It makes everything better for everyone.

…or else give them a cut as he is asking for.

sage691 🎙️ · 31st October 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by los marbles ➡️

They are in fact your songs. However…

I recommend paying anyone playing on “your songs”. It makes everything better for everyone.

…or else give them a cut as he is asking for.

Having studied the thread, what "cut" would you suggest ?

He was demanding I "amend" the Copyright. That would give him 50% of the authorship (lyrics & music) AND 50% of the master !

los marbles · 1st November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

Having studied the thread, what "cut" would you suggest ?

He was demanding I "amend" the Copyright. That would give him 50% of the authorship (lyrics & music) AND 50% of the master !

Offer to pay him for session work instead. If he insists on a writing credit, and if you feel the drums he provides aren’t integral to the song’s appeal, then re-cut with another (paid) player. If they are integral then maybe he has a point.

Always pay musicians for their skill, work, and time. Friends too. It not only shows respect to them, but it makes them more accountable to be prepared, show up and work.

Win (you), win (player), win (client)

sage691 🎙️ · 1st November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by los marbles ➡️

Offer to pay him for session work instead. If he insists on a writing credit, and if you feel the drums he provides aren’t integral to the song’s appeal, then re-cut with another (paid) player. If they are integral then maybe he has a point.

Always pay musicians for their skill, work, and time. Friends too. It not only shows respect to them, but it makes them more accountable to be prepared, show up and work.

Win (you), win (player), win (client)

As I mentioned before, he already got paid in FREE SESSION time in my studio (with me as the engineer/producer) on another song with a female singer he brought to the studio. She supposedly had "label interest", so his motive was clear. This was NOT one of my songs. They had some basic generic riffs and the plan was to hash something out in the studio with this woman who had lyrics and something "jazzy" in mind. With my help it actually turned in to something tangible. I ran a commercial studio back then (plenty of happy clients) and my hourly rate was not cheap. I reckon I put in 4-5 times the amount of actual time on that project compared to what he did on my 5 songs. That was an 8 hour drumming session, versus what I did for them which was 4-5 days of fulfilling a producer/engineer role in a pro studio.

People that place a monetary value to their offerings can sometimes also be the type that sees no value in what you do/did for them - they monetize anything they do for you, but expect that you do not apply the same standard to them. And those types you sometimes have to educate and see how they respond when confronted with a simple truth that they've been actively avoiding.

los marbles · 8th November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

As I mentioned before, he already got paid in FREE SESSION time in my studio (with me as the engineer/producer) on another song with a female singer he brought to the studio. She supposedly had "label interest", so his motive was clear. This was NOT one of my songs. They had some basic generic riffs and the plan was to hash something out in the studio with this woman who had lyrics and something "jazzy" in mind. With my help it actually turned in to something tangible. I ran a commercial studio back then (plenty of happy clients) and my hourly rate was not cheap. I reckon I put in 4-5 times the amount of actual time on that project compared to what he did on my 5 songs. That was an 8 hour drumming session, versus what I did for them which was 4-5 days of fulfilling a producer/engineer role in a pro studio.

People that place a monetary value to their offerings can sometimes also be the type that sees no value in what you do/did for them - they monetize anything they do for you, but expect that you do not apply the same standard to them. And those types you sometimes have to educate and see how they respond when confronted with a simple truth that they've been actively avoiding.

I’ve bartered for a studio build in exchange for studio time with ill defined conditions.

Huge mistake.

Don’t have ill defined conditions.

If you 2 already exchanged goods, his drumming on your project in exchange for your engineering on his project, then that should have been the end of what’s owed.

sage691 🎙️ · 10th November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by los marbles ➡️

If you 2 already exchanged goods, his drumming on your project in exchange for your engineering on his project, then that should have been the end of what’s owed.

True, but obviously he conveniently forgot this ! Not surprising as I have encountered some musicians who feel like pro studio time should be gifted to them. And if they do some session work for you they add up every penny of what they feel like their "musicianship" is worth. But then they expect you to give them a "deal" (or even charge zero) for studio time on their failed projects that went nowhere.

A previous poster nailed it when he said "self aggrandizing ego."

DEA · 11th November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️

True, but obviously he conveniently forgot this ! Not surprising as I have encountered some musicians who feel like pro studio time should be gifted to them. And if they do some session work for you they add up every penny of what they feel like their "musicianship" is worth. But then they expect you to give them a "deal" (or even charge zero) for studio time on their failed projects that went nowhere.

A previous poster nailed it when he said "self aggrandizing ego."

So your original post was in September.

Here we are in November.

Do you have an update for us?

Have you spoken with him or is there some kind of standoff happening?

sage691 🎙️ · 11th November 2024

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEA ➡️

So your original post was in September.

Here we are in November.

Do you have an update for us?

Have you spoken with him or is there some kind of standoff happening?

Thanks for asking.

We still haven't talked since. I did send a text not long after the argument apologizing for bringing his wife into it. Never heard back.

My position right now is to just let him contact me if he is ready to have a mature and honest discussion about facts and industry "norms" and leave emotions out of it. My level of knowledge on this subject is 1000x greater than it was when I first started this thread.

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:

Gear discussed

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:

Gear discussed on this page in this thread

Gear discussed