So I'm finishing up LA Recording School, selling my motorcycle, my V Studio 700 and Omnirax Force 12 desk to make some purchases and rent a space in LA to work on all of these projects that are coming my way lately. Working from home is great, but I live in an apartment, and tracking and mixing at school is not an every day thing by any means. I wish I could use the 9000k everyday, but thats not going to happen. In any case, for a first DECENT setup, I'll have about 7 grand to work with. I have JBL LSR 4328s, a beastly PC I built and some other goodies lying around. I've recently upgraded to PT9 and ditched Sonar :( I love Sonar but PT9 will make my life easier because EVERYONE and their mom uses it. No work around for that one. I foresee a Digidesign control 24 in my future. That should set me back 4 grand. That leaves me with about 3. I have some friends that are going in on this studio with me, and we they have tons of outboard gear, but no good comp, monitors, screens, so it seems like a fair trade. Plus, I'm the computer nerd. In any case, the control 24, bang for the buck, hands down the best piece of gear for that kind of money. Mixed reviews about the pres but whatever, we have a bunch lying around. Some Hardy M1s and other goodies. I'm in need of an I/O. The Roland V Studio 700r sounds really good actually, but is not working with PT9 all that great, AND you need the console to control it. I figure its time for an upgrade anyways. I'm currently choosing between these interfaces.

Lynx Aurora 16
Apogee Ensemble OR Symphony
RME Multi or Fireface

I need something that will integrate with PT9 nicely, give me 16 ins and outs, and have minimal latency for around 3500. I know about the whole better faster cheaper triangle. But perhaps I'm overlooking some options here. Also, can someone compare the benefits of PCI and PCIe over firewire and USB? That is where I am really struggling. I have scoured these forums, absorbed all I could, but before I take the plunge, sell my precious bike and gear and buy something, I wanted some expert opinions given the details of the studio build. Thanks guys!

Dima

What about mics (or is this only a mix room)? Are you sure you need a control surface (that mostly replicates what you can already do within the DAW) before other things? Room treatments?

Also, this wasn't your question, but I'd definitely run a cash flow forecast that takes into account how taking on multiple partners (if that's what you mean by going in with your friends) affects your personal bottom line. With so much attrition in studio rates these days, there's hardly enough money to pay ONE studio owner let alone several in a studio's early days.

My advice, for what it's worth -

You are going to need a ridiculously larger amount of money and are going to want to have the studio booked months in advance before going on this journey... and even then, starting a studio is still a huge investment with huge risk (with statistically little hope of return on investment)

It looks like you have your basic equipment costs planned out, but add in:
Mics, cabling ($$$), acoustic treatment ($$$$$$), rent, plenty of types of insurance, taxes, gas, water, electric, maintenance (both studio and property), assistants/interns... Then once you get those costs and projections figured out, you'll have to search your local market for competing studios - you'll have to figure out what would set you apart, how your day rate/room/gear/etc. compares.

Sorry to be the grim reaper here... I would just do an exponentially greater amount of financial projecting before considering this.

You need to differentiate yourself from other competitors.
Dumping a software with which you are proficient and jumping on a bandwagon might not be the way to do it.

Besides, you are most likely going to start out with clients with little or no recording experience. They'll be starting over at your place, or importing completed files from whatever they've been using. New software is not a must, it is a lateral move that wastes .your time and money, both of which are in short supply at this moment.

I owned a Fireface800, which was a problem free and very flexible tool for me. Great company, great support, just like Cakewalk. For 16x16, there will be no problem using firewire, PCI, or PCIe. I have no real world experience with trying to shove more than 4 tracks over USB, so I can't comment. But the new spec of USB 3 and lightpeak promise much larger amounts of data flow. Not relevant to you, you need a solution that works today.

Partners suck.

A gear list will not sell your studio. You need to be able to identify a client base and reach them, and convince them that you can do what they need done better than the next guy. This is a "skills" issue. First, the skill to sell the job, second the skill to do what you said that you could do. Nobody cares what tools Gibson uses to make a Les Paul, but a Les Paul is clearly better than 80% of the Les Paul copies out there. The gear that should really impress them costs more per piece than you have too invest in your whole room, but they would not know those names anyway.

Start small. Buy only what you need. Write down a list of what you need, based upon a plan.... "how do I do this? What do I need to make this work? How do these things hook up?" Don't be in a hurry to spend money, never buy version 1.0 of anything, don't believe manufacturers promises for tomorrow, sales guys suck, clients don't know what they are talking about- YOU'RE supposed to be the expert. Run your own ship and act, don't react.

You also need a business plan. Wanting to own a studio is not enough. This is like a guy who likes to drink in bars buying a bar. Stupid move.

YES- to reiterate my previous point, go make a cash flow forecast. Most failed businesses had problems 'on paper' even before they opened their doors. Here's what I mean:

A few years ago a family member was asked to invest in a new studio by someone we're close to. I was brought in to consult on the financial aspect of it, and the first thing I did was to poke around in their 2 year cash flow forecast. Turns out they expected profitability after the first year, but they didn't account for paying themselves a salary. In their *best* case scenario, with both A and B rooms fully booked, there was only enough for each of the partners to make a $40k/yr salary.

So, even before they started the business, one could see that there would be problems splitting the pie so many ways. And, lo and behold, the business wound up ousting a partner (and it was ugly & expensive) in a conflict that could have surely been avoided if they'd paid attention to what the numbers told them.

Run the numbers before you buy a DARN thing!

Way to destroy a child's hopes and dreams guys

JK. Let me elaborate on our venture then.
I am starting a company, "o19MediaGroup", that does high quality tracking, mixing, mastering, replication, graphic design and web design. I am working with 4 other guys on this venture, and they are no slouches. One has a couple of Grammy's, a tracking and mixing studio with an SSL 6000G and Augspurges, the other has been programming for Sun and Untuit for 15 years. The graphic designer is a friend of mine who does it for a living, and has done many album covers in the Bay Area. The 4th, who is really at this point just an affiliate, used to be partners with the first guy, and has a very nice mastering studio in Studio City, and can replicate 47 CDs at once and print 15. So, between us we can provide the clients, which are primarily going to be record labels, with the entire product for their A&R, from start to finish. Maybe eventually, we will work with their bigger artists. But for now, indies and A&R are our target, and we already have work. Now we need an office, I need a place to put my studio and our tracking/mixing engineer is using the comp attached to his SSL to do everything from mastering, to quick in the box sessions. It seems having a studio next door to his, a smaller studio that doubles as an office, that is mostly for session prep, cutting vocals and post production for film is an excellent option.

The rent is to be split between me and 2 other guys who have some solid outboard gear. We have it in writing that I can give them a one month notice to pack their gear up, as the lease will be under me, and we have contracts amongst each other. Eventually, I want it to be mine and only mine, muah ha ha ha! Yes, they are aware. We are all students at LA Recording School, not partners, just splitting the space and combining equipment. We are not "business partners", just saving cash, because we all know we wont be there 24/7, so it just makes sense at this point. When o19MediaGroup gets really busy, then I can start moving them out, which we've already agreed upon. Next door to the space we plan to rent (for 900 a month, so 300 each), is where my partners SSL is. So I can prep tracks for him, do edits for mixing projects we get delivered without taking up the SSL room. Seems cost effective to me, and in either case, I need a place to compose and the apartment isn't working out

Also, I am now as proficient in PT as I am in Sonar, and I know Logic pretty darn well too. If anyone is interested in a V Studio 700 or 2006 CBR 600rr, let me know

devil's advocate:

Even if everything works out exactly how you plan it, I would plan on things taking 3x as long and being 3x as expensive as you expect. You'll also have to talk to the landlord (and the city) about renovations/acoustic treatment/codes/etc.

While that rent plan sounds good on paper - if you guys are making money with 3 people working and then eventually you give two of them the boot, isn't that 2/3 of your income/clientele out the door (as well as a big increase in your share of the overhead)? If I was in their shoes, I wouldn't want to be paying into a studio space where the end goal is to kick me out.

How does booking the space work if all three of you are sharing gear? Who collects the checks from each project? Who pays for acoustic treatment/maintenance/facility maintenance?

My first question would be: Is the guy with the SSL room actually consistently overbooked to the point where he needs a second studio next door to cut things? If he is, wouldn't it make financial sense for him to just get that other room going?

I would start with your best case scenario and run the numbers. (i.e. take your proposed day rate, multiply by working days, subtract rent/salary/utilities/insurance/debt, and see if you end up negative) Then, assuming that number is positive, work up more scenarios, since there's no way everything will happen as planned. Work up the worst case scenario,... etc.

Shared space/rent/gear without an already-booked clientele (and I assume the space isn't renovated to "studio mode" yet, aka another big expense) seems like risky business.

Buy two Ensembles. That'll be 8 channels worth the pre's you'll need but you said you have some laying around. Best converters. Period. Plus they are firewire 400/800 so you don't have to fool with the cards. Works with PT9.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html - this is a lengthy but very good write up on room treatment. You might be able to do it yourself with $400-500.

All valid questions my good sir.

If one guy leaves, I pay 600 and the 3rd guy payes 300, but he only get to book the studio 5 days every 2 weeks.

Since the studio next door is quiete busy, and since me and the proprietor are partners, it only makes sense that I take on some of the costs. Me and this individual also design and build studios. We just converted a 2 car garage in Van Nuys into an SSL equipped awesomeness center. First client of theirs is Busta Rhymes, he he he. We had 6 inches of sand in the floors, floating walls, a small vocal booth, genies, the works. (BTW, if you're in the LA area and need a quote, let me know). Room sounds great.

In terms of splitting projects, what I work on is mine, what the fellow renters work on is theirs.

I appreciate all of the concern and advice guys but, any word on those interfaces ?

Thats the thing. It is my understanding that going PCI gives me less latency. Whats the downside?

Ensemble - best converters period? Yeah, right.

I'm not one to get up and dance about converters and I don't think they're all that important. But the Ensemble converters are not close to the best converters out there.

Don't know if you know, but unlike the Prism Orpheus (similar idea to the Ensemble), the Ensemble does not use the same converters as it's big brothers. Whilst the ADA in the Orpheus is the same as the ADA-8XR, the converters in the Ensemble are cheaper and of a lower quality than those in the AD-16 / DA-16. Those are among the best converters in the world.

For something that you don't even own you seem to speak very highly of the Ensemble.

The down side of PCI is nothing other than the fact that a lot of computers don't have PCI slots.

Either way, 2 Ensembles is not the way forward!

If you want to take on commercial projects, I would seriously buy PT|HD. It's still the best software out there. Leave off the Aurora 16 and buy a second hand HD2 system (or maybe HD1 is enough for your needs? If working ITB it may well be) with a/multiple 192 I/Os. The old grey front ones. You will get good value for money and an industry standard in recording equipment, not a hobby setup.

I have PT9 LE with the complete production toolkit, which is basically HD - TDM of course.

I have a beast of a PC, i7 clocked at 3.6Ghz with 12 gigs of ram.

I think Native is the way of the future. Using Sonar 8.5 with my V Studio 700, I could run 15 tracks with heavy plugins simultaneously on 50+ track projects at 88/24 using maybe 35% of the CPU. In any case, I think PT9 with CPT 2 and a control 24 is a cool little setup for ITB editing, prepping projects for the SSL and API boards we have at the studio. Good for post and composition too.

I just need to figure out what I'm going to need for converters and pres. I think RME Fireface 800 or UFX might be the right fit for me, but just wanted to weight my options. Really, I think for this studio (studio C) We will be tracking vocals, doing things like ADR, and composition, so all I need is ONE good preamp, but having 24 extra never killed anyone + the 4 from the RME.

Lynx Aurora16 with the Lynx AES16e card. Done.

Works perfectly, sounds great (or rather doesn't impede the sound at all), has a fantastic clock, and the PCIe interface card gives you all the i/o and very low latency with great stability.

Bear in mind though that you'll need to invest in cabling, a monitor controller, and external preamps.

OK - what part am I not getting... you're partnering with a dude that has Grammies® and an SSL but you're all from the LA Recording Skool... and then buy yourself a serious scooter that is worth more than $7k [sorry, motorcycle snob as well as a gear snot].

I'm hoping I'm just getting like way old and have a reading comprehension problem... because this smells really bad from what I've read.

BTW - you mentioned in another post that you're selling your scooter to do this... and you're still only investing $7k? If you were my kid I'd advise you to get a "runner" gig somewhere [like a real studio, where people with Grammy® awards work on a regular basis] - learn the ropes [no disrespect to the LA 'kordin' skool -- but something in the back of my head is screaming that there ain't no Grammy® winning producer / engineers on that staff] and earn your way into the industry.

I'm really hoping this is an early Alzheimer's moment [I could save a bloody fortune on intoxicants if it is] and that I read your original stuff wrong... and certainly wish you the very best of luck and wonderful success with all you do... but something sounds really wrong here.

Peace.

don't forget he's also a "studio designer," too. ya, i wanna trust my $25 per sq.ft build out to some kid out of rekord skoolz....

this

This thread has taken a turn for the... *********gerish is the most suitable term.

I'm not going to get into the details, and I don't want to waste my time explaining my situation to people who obviously don't care, and don't take the time to understand what I am writing. The studio I want to build is directly next to where my partner is moving his SSL 6000, which is a building in silverlake where my instructor from LARS already has his studio. I want to upgrade and move my existing studio there, and they have a room for rent for $1,000/m where I am going to move my studio, along with some friends from LARS because I will not be there more than 4 hours a day due to school and other projects, and for now, no reason to not split costs.

The gentleman with the SSL is my friend, mentor and partner. I've uploaded and linked a video of a build we just did in Van Nuys. This is a former 2 car garage. 6" of sand in the floor, removable seude paneled floating walls, bass traps, clouds, all studs, beams and frames tested for resonant frequencies and fixed, AC, 2 Mac Pros, 2 sets of Genies, SSL Matrix. The attached video is the studio at 90% completion.



If you don't understand, please don't be a ********* troll. I really couldn't care less whether you believe me or not, but I have dedicated the last year of my life to this business and learning all that I can after dabbling with audio and electrical engineering for the last 6.

LARS staff includes engineer/producer Tony Smalios and our director of education is Steve Miller. I have gained more knowledge from the industry professionals at my school and made more connections in these 10 months then I could have being a runner for 8 an hour. An acquaintance of mine just got canned from one of the biggest LA studios after 1.5 years running, and he has little to show for it now.

Besides going to school 40 hours a week, I have dedicated at least 24 hours a week helping my mentor in his current studio and even running sessions on his SSL, as well as learning how to design and build studios. I take offense because at this level of dedication, your skepticism is a slap in the face.

BTW, my 600rr with 2 bros exhaust, Barnett clutch and 06 front end will smoke whatever your riding. We can wager on a track day if you'd like.

You do realise that you've built an entire studio on it's side, don't you? Interesting, but not very practical.

sorry, too lazy to upload it on my PC and flip it. Had my appendix removed on sat night and have been on all sorts of meds since then, sorry if I came off as rude. :/

Sorry, but you're mislead.

I went to University. When people are looking it me doing a job for them, what's the first question they ask?

"Which university did you go to?" - No
"What did you learn there?" - No
"Which failed engineers work there (because if they hadn't failed they'd still be engineering)" - No
"Who've you worked with?" - Yes.

And whether you're running or engineering, you're still working for people. I've been a stagehand for Prince, which is the 2nd lowest form of Prince crew, but I've still been on the Prince crew.

I've learned early on that in this industry that some older cats are set in their ways, and nothing will convince them otherwise. They mic the same way, mix the same and think the same way. You probably have no idea who Tony is. We had lunch last week and discussed his mixing techniques on some Lenny Kravitz tracks he.

I understand what starting from the bottom is. I barbacked before I tended bar, I worked the stock room before I sold cell phones at ATT and I've worked with horrible artists for years, just so I could have the experience. I've studied music for most of my life (almost 20 years) and play Jazz keys (hopefully purchasing a rhodes Mk2 soon). There is this sense of "paying your dues" that I sometimes don't understand. My friend who was running for those 18 months at his studio, he told me horror stories of engineers blowing gear up, having him do and undo useless tasks, and overall being ungrateful, insecure knobs. I was never like that to my bar backs, I was never like that to the guys that worked the stock room, and I am glad that the instructors at my school, my mentor and Tony are not like that. These people teach because they want to. Those who don't are scared to be replaced (maybe for good reason).

In either case, if we could get back to the matter at hand.

I stumbled upon the Nucleus today. I remember reading about it in Nov. Could be just what I'm looking for. Anyone have any experience with it? We installed an SSL Matrix in the Van Nuys Studio. Can't say I was too impressed based on the $23,000 price tag.

If that's what you want to think, then carry on. Maybe it'll make you sleep better at night.

But note this - people don't get given bone jobs because the people giving them are harsh. They get given bone jobs because they open themselves up to it.

At a festival in 2009, we were given 2 hands (stagehands - carry stuff) from the local university. They were both extremely keen and a bit too kiss ass for our liking. One used to pack my bag at the end of the day and put my tools away and what not. The other was just a pain, he used to change stuff to make it 'better' or put things away to make the place tidy, when it had been left out for a reason.

So it was only about a day and a half before we started sending them off to the local rental shop to get a long stand and a left handed socket set, or to the builders merchant for chequered paint.

One of them realised he had been a mong and sorted out himself, and started just doing what he was supposed to do, not backtracking us and not kissing any shoes, and started acting like a professional stage hand not a college kissass.

The other one didn't, he kept kissing more ass thinking we'd stop giving out the bone jobs. And we didn't. And the keys for the car park were summoned from the scary man in the security office, as was a chocolate kettle and a big weight/wait. And he eventually decided he was 'above' stagehands and went off to do whatever.

Lesson of the story. People don't give you rubbish jobs to do. You ask for them. Maybe not explicitly, but you do. If people take you seriously, they won't send you on dick errands.

It's overpriced for what it is.

It's basically:

a 2in 2 out converter with monitoring controls and very good preamps.
a 16 fader MIDI controller.

You want 16 I/O - you didn't say with pre-amps or not?

If you do want pre-amps, the new Allen & Heath GS-R24 is going to be the best thing for you. It's about $8k I think, but essentially you get 24 I/O with monitoring controls and pre-amps, and 24 fader MIDI controller.

The pre's won't sound as good as the SSL and I doubt the conversion is quite there, but the functionality fits your bill.

For a unit that doesn't do much audio processing, I get the feeling you're buying up to $1000 of MIDI controller, $1000 of analogue electronics, and then $4000 of name tagging. If you looked harder you could find a much better solution for your needs.


By the way, have you read my 'Things to consider before buying any gear for a studio' post? It's useful and I C&P it a lot for people

I totally dig what your saying bigd, but you must admit that some industry professionals have an air of elitism about them. Honestly, the idea that the staff at LARS is a bunch of audiophile rejects who can't get work is a misconception. I was highly skeptical before attending the school and doing my research. It is chalk full of highly knowledgable working professionals. I have asked many professors (in class) why they teach and the answer is unanimously to pass on the torch and knowledge, because supposedly good audio engineers and editors and a dying breed. Many of these guys own their own studios, including "Blueturtle" (SSL duality equipped) and "Broken Wave".
In any case, I understand the skepticism, I was there, and I don't believe going to a school for 18 months renders your an engineer. It takes hard work, a spongy brain to absorb all you can, hard work and dedication.

That Allen and Heath is beastly. Very nice, but a little out of my price range + I was trying to keep Studio C an ITB rig, mostly for production, light mixing and automation to prep for the consoles, editing, post and ADR. Basically, the things that don't warrant the booking of the SSL and API boards are going to go into my studio first. Things are moving at the speed of light right now, on that note, I think I'm going with a control 24 and an RME UFX. Should be allllll gravy. Thanks for your help guys!

I would just check out

https://gearspace.com/board/6224716-post3.html

It's worth thinking about before beginning the big spend

Thanks big D, an excellent read indeed. Helped me organize my thoughts quiete a bit.

Right on time too, my graphic designer knocked out these 2 mock ups for our logo.



I personally like the oregon ducks theme with the carbon fiber and lime green (my idea) he he he.
I completely agree that i dont need top notch pres dynamics and effects, since I will be primarily composing, editing, applying automation and doing light post. So I think my original idea a control 24 and an RME multi 2, FF800 or UFX are going to stick. Although, with the SSL I get everything I need + can control 3 daws at once. Pretty snazzy. Since I will have an API and an SSL next door (at my disposal) I think this needs to comfortable room with a small booth for vocals and ADR (already have the LCD). I really appreciate your input and advice. Thanks guys!

The gear is ancillary to the rest of the prospect. If you have a DAW already and a way of monitoring your edits, you might consider a cheap HUI based control surface to avoid carpel tunnel syndrome and leave it at that. If your next door neighbor has a 6K and a real monitoring environment, a Control 24 probably isn't necessary even in the long run, let alone as a start-up expense. From what you say, the bulk of your paying work will be assisting your neighbor. Get the stuff you need to prep his projects (which ain't much), and hang on to your cash as long as you can. You'll need it for rent when clients don't flood through the doors. You'll need it when a petty argument with a partner makes you realize that a lawyer ought to be drafting your business contracts. There will be a zillion other things you haven't even considered yet that will fight for that tiny bit of money. When you're pleading with the landlord for one more week to come up with the rent you probably won't be thinking which converter is the best.

You're young and confident. Those are good things to be. But if you temper your enthusiasm a bit and focus on the business of starting a business, you might actually stay in business long enough for a converter to make a rat's ass bit of difference. Right now it doesn't.

This feels like..When young guys now a days start a band..They want to sit around talk about their outfits they want to wear..talk about the gear they want to buy..Then talk about the type of songs they want to record..Talk about recording...
They still haven't played together... But they've talked about it... So it will be cool... Watch!

preach it sister.