I saw a avid statement that showed MC and PT being about 50/50, IIRC about 250M/y ea gross.

For the record - I own DP8, PT10 and Logic9, and X
I started out with Opcode's Vision, and creator and then on to performer.
I used DP asmy main Daw- until 2009... Then Logic. I had worked on PT9 .. And finally added PT10 to the studio -

I know some are bashing LPX for being the same old sluggish code and just rehashed... But the Logic team did an quite a but if improved work flow and some nice additions - is it everything we wanted ?... No but then again no DAW release ever is. They can't possibly squeeze every single users wish list into a new feature and its unrealistic to expect that they could or would. It's also laughable to accuse Apple of making logic - GarageBand pro... They already have GarageBand and they give it to you for free ... If you buy a mac.

I find that flex pitch just shaves hours off of workflow with Melodyne ... And the pitch algorithm Apple has presented is excellent and in some ways superior to Celemonys -
There are lots of tiny improvements that u keep discovering...

In terms of the old logic code.. I think the question is ... Was the old logic code really that bad.,. And is the new PT11 core rewrite really that advanced in comparison- I mean PT is just getting bounce to disc,,, which is laughable .... Logics "old code"
Has had it for years.., PT is just getting decent midi editing and VI handling and 64bit support- logic users have had that for years- if it took avid this long and a core rewrite ... To, in many ways, catch up,,, I'd be concerned with their lack, - if be curious to see just how that new engine stacks up against Logics.

PT needs ilok.. Well enough said there. We all know by now, 1 wrong move from pace and lots of folks are dead in the water- it could happen again.

AAX- it's gonna be a while before all your plugins dujour make it over ... Logic had the same growing pains with 64bit- but at least we had the bridge and now most are available

Investment - avid has no money... They gave piss poor leadership- and their future is unknown-
Apple has lots of money - their logic team in Germany is alive and well...despite the rumors - evidenced by the constant updates to 9 and the release of X- and also...
cupertino pretty much leaves the german guts alone and lets them do what they do,,,,
and I have a suspicion that subsequent updates to X will bring bigger and better things (polyphonic pitch, redmatica , etc)- I think we'll see some interesting things when the macpro arrives with mavericks...

Proprietary hardware-avid gave us native, but we all now they push their hardware and match features to entice you there. - but with Avid's issues - I'd be afraid to commit to anything proprietary with them.

I do enjoy PT for mixing - though I am
Always creating and producing in Logic - and when it comes
time to edit and mix - there really isn't anything I can't do in Logic -
So rarely do I close it and open PT- for me there is no real benefit.

With all of that being said - some folks like Coke and some like Pepsi- find a Daw, learn it and use it... Don't constantly dog it... Both PT and Logic are equally capable - with some added benefits to both.

Industry standard doesn't really apply in audio... Post maybe- but when Avid gets finished driving their company in the ground - that may change as well.

For mixing, PT has lots of things I wish Logic had added in LPX -

- Trim Automation
- VCA groups
- standard pan pots (instead of balance)
- better metering, and many improved metering options in PT11
- better file management, and facilities for submix/stem output (from what I've seen).

Granted, my impressions are based on watching PT11 videos as I consider the switch from Logic. So far I like what I see, though I know it's gonna be real hard to wrap my head around a new DAW after over a decade with Logic.

I will still probably use Logic for writing and messing around, because I know it so well and the MIDI editing is second nature to me now. But PT looks like it has more features for multi-track audio recording and editing, and the mixing workflow looks way more advanced -- in my not so humble opinion.

Not trying to 'sell' anyone though. You can definitely get the job done in Logic, as I've been doing for ages. Different DAWs for different flaws!

:-)

Is the claim that PT handles instrument plug-ins poorly still valid with PT11?

I'm a Logic user, but definitely in my occasional experience of pre-11 versions of PT I saw first-hand that it didn't handle low-latency virtual instruments well, nor could it handle very many simultaneously.

PT11, with the new audio engine and dual processing buffers (playback tracks now have a separate buffer at 1024 samples), can perform very well even at a record buffer as low as 32 samples. I tried this in my home studio this week, with Superior Drummer (one of the few AAX-64 compatible instruments, sadly!).

I was able to record several tracks at 32 samples without dropouts. Logic Pro 9 gives me the same performance (always an exceptional low-latency performer), while in Cubase, anything below 128 samples as a recording buffer gives a crackly result for VST instruments.

So I'm now thinking that the traditionally fair claim that Pro Tools is really behind when it comes to running large projects of virtual instruments is possibly no longer true.

I'd be keen to hear from others who have been using PT11, to see whether my experience of the dramatic improvement is mirrored in your experience.

Cheers,
Mike


(PS - as a side note, the lack of "freeze" functionality in PT is still disappointing, as that is always a good backstop when projects get too big and virtual instruments start to play up.)

PT11 is a different world from PT10, especially if you are on HD11 and are enjoying having your session totally cached. It's silly fast.

Very efficient with VI's now.

Now that they introduced offline bounce I'm sure we will be seeing more composer features, hopefully freeze for those who use it as well.

Bu there is the thing, you can say the same about about Logic in comparison to Pro Tools. Logic has awful multicore management, has awful PDC management especially in relation to the UI. In turn automation is a bit of a joke. the audio engine is still the same as previous versions. ALL of the issues, bugs, quirks that have plagued Logic users for 8 years are still there. 8 years, not 4, some of these bugs have been around since version 8, some are even older than that. Don't you think that's a serious issue? I personally find it inexcusable, especially when they had 3 years (I count L9.1 as its own version) to at least look through the code. What we have now is Logic 9.2 at most.

Considering Apple's aversion to legacy, this release is very surprising.

Agree on many fronts with yr comments- and while I was expecting a total rewrite and some oft hose issues at least improved upon- I think Apple moved a little cautiously - learning from not only the FCPX debacle, but from the Avid update debacle. Yes Logic had lots of new home studio users - but there are lots of core users that go back years-
Gerhard is really still at the helm and the logic team is pretty much left to their own devices... Which is a good thing- but they are really damned if try do and damned if they don't - I would like to see the general response - if they really shook things up- created A new Plugin standard, changed the entire workflow with enhancements and maximized the memory issues ... Stripped the environment out, you know really took off... Then all the posts would be how they alienated their users, no developer support for AU2, ruined workflow, and how they are just trying to sell you new computer...
This release has streamlined workflow considerably, gave us flex pitch, a few new goodies -... Actually tons of little things that have yet to be discovered ... And most importantly... I think what lies ahead ...with the updates will really be an eye opener... In terms of those issues you mention. Mavericks, the new macpro and the macs coming- I think the logic team is way ahead of where we think they are.... I think there is a new sampler
Waiting to be unleashed, polyphonic flex pitch, and core audio, performance coming very soon.

Sure some 32bit plugin owners are upset but that's not apples fault - they mailed the developers letters almost 2 years ago... Strongly suggesting 64bit coding... It was the developers choice to sit on it .... But here the logic team thinking forward ... Gets nailed for making that decision. I mean really store fronts eventually removed the posts to tie your horses ... To make way for roads and parking spaces for automobiles.
I now some Emagic die yards that would have fell on their swords- of the environment was abandoned... While on the other hand , I know several that thinks ifs outdated and bloats the app..,,

LPX is a lot of bang for the buck- pretty seamless transition . Legacy projects opening fine- workflow has been optimized, but not totally changed, they give you flexPitch, drummer- worth the price right there... But track stacks, midi plugs, some new instruments... Lots of improvements- in contrast Melodyne, Superior Drummer (with 15 Kits expansions and about 10 midi packs),
Alone cost at least 5 times as much as logic alone - not to mention the other gigs of additional content and plugs incl.

Lots of folks always bitching about what they didnt get... No one mentioning what they did get....

well we certainly need to keep the environment. the power user pro's need that. it's usually the rather lazy users that don't want it and think we will have heaven on earth if only it were not there.

I do have LX and really like everything about it. I do however wonder if it is more optimized for the upcoming "Macericks" os.

So other than fixing terrible performance and adding one offline checkbox in bouncing preferences it is *exactly* the same software. Wow. And the upgrade price is more than logic full.
What other features did it add? I still see it as the one without flex type pitch also. They could have at least supported ARA tech so people could seamlessly use melodyne.
STILL no shortcut for bounce in place/freeze after almost ten years of people begging.

I bet we see it in pt12. That will be the new thing. A whole gala event with a massive screen showing off how pt now has bounce in place.. And that will be it. For $299 upgrade.
That 11 release was very very cheeky and should have been a free update to 10 users but the way.

I mean yeah maybe it's finally what pt should be all along but the fact that they are bumping out these updates yearly now and charging high dollars for them tells me they are desperately trying to stay afloat.

It's pretty much public knowledge avid are in a very bad place financially, but tbh I think they'd sell off pt to someone if that day came.. I don't think we will ever see the demise of the pt brand.

Don't forget, if you already have an ilok 2 you can download the PT 11 demo
and I believe it should already be complete with the recent 11.0.1 update.

I've looked, and I've tried, but I haven't found an easier interface to work with than PT, automation, VCAs, etc....punching in...it's all a breeze. I'm quite happy in PT11 HD and could care less how many other DAWS can do this or that. All of them have features that come at a workflow price I'm not willing to pay.

And yes I use Logic daily, until my necessary plugs are available for PT11.

TH

That's ok, that's just what works for you. I could never get used to it as my main daw. We are all different and any choice is valid as long as one is productive and feels comfortable with it.

PT10 came out almost 2 years ago. 11 has dynamic processing that works, no single core peaking problems, can run the low buffer (monitor/record) on more than one core and has session cache. These things are much more important to me than ARA, I've used it in S1 and IMO it isn't much better than how melo runs directly, it gets really clunky when you copy/paste.

Logic has excellent value no doubt. But for many of us when we are going to buy K9U, EW, Superior etc anyway the included plugs don't carry a ton of weight. On the other hand where can you buy the 3rd party software to that makes LPX take advantage of more cores when tracking, or make dynamic proc work smoothly?

YMMV, lots of different people in different markets working in different ways; only saying that I think most people comparing side by side would not consider 11 to be a small upgrade (esp including comprehensive metering, gr metering, new aux behavior etc etc).

On the financial front IMO Avid is in the same place any business is that has just invested heavily in their infrastructure. Everything from AAX for S3L/venue to the PT engine is new, state of the art and ready for the next 10+ years.

I wanted to feel the differences between LPX and Pro Tools so I recorded a song in both LPX and PT. The same song in both. I highly recommend this to anyone who is on the fence about which program is right for them. My opinions are based on my personal working style on may not be the same for everyone. I am not an engineer. I am a songwriter. Here it goes..

LPX
The workflow here is a little more quicker than the previous Logic Pro 9 version. The new darker GUI was really great at first but after a while I started disliking it. The dark color feels depressing. It feels like being in the dark with a flashlight and never seeing actual daylight. The new midi features are great. Track stacks is a cool feature and one of the reasons for smoother workflow in LPX.
There are some great new sounds here and I found myself overproducing my song especially when you can pull up sound so quickly in the browser. Flex pitch is good but needs some work. It is great to have a pitch program built in to your program. When I am working in Logic Pro X I feel like I am in a consumer product. Especially the way it looks now. That is not the case in PT.

Pro Tools 10
The brighter GUI is so much better here for me. It's like someone turned on the lights after being in LPX. I like the 2 windows. One for editing and one for mixing. I prefer this over the one page style LPX has. LPX felt claustrophobic to me with so many windows on one page. It was a breath of fresh air working in PT. Yes the workflow is a little slower in some areas but if you create a good template it should help. My song sounded better here in PT. I quickly realized I had overproduced the song in LPX. I guess with all the instruments and being able to quickly use them can easily make a person overproduce a song. The song in PT was bigger with less stuff. Not sure how that happens but you have to listen to it understand. Having all the instruments and features in LPX might be a bad thing for me. The mixer in PT is better than LPX. Recording was easier for me here. I like the midi merge button. Editing in PT is SO much easier than LPX. I hate the Marque tool in LPX. The selector tool in PT is awesome.
PT is a lot more responsive that LPX. It's the little thing in PT that make it so great. I like how it auto colorizes all the clips. I love clip gain! Did LPX add this feature? I didn't see it. Yes there are less VI's here in PT but I use a Komplete for most of my sounds anyways.

Conclusion:
LPX has a LOT of tools and tricks to get the job done. PT has all the RIGHT ones I need to make it happen. My song sounded better in PT. I feel like a professional songwriter when I am in Pro Tools. In LPX I feel like I am playing with a toy.

The winner for me is Pro Tools!

Agreed on the overly dark Logic interface.

It's pretty straightforward to change all the colours in Logic, it's probably worth the investment of a couple of hours of trying different combinations for something you might be looking at for years (literally).

Check out this thread: https://gearspace.com/board/logic-pr...is-thread.html

Agree on all points.

It just feels klunky now, and the command focus makes it almost entirely useless to me. Some great tricks and instruments/sounds, but I find L9 much faster (and uglier), and Pro Tools 11 seems like a real sleek ship in comparison, plus the HD software is blazing fast.

Spectrasonics onboard now helps me a lot....waiting for Autotune and Sonnox and I'm out of Logic.

TH

Logic doesn't have to be used in one window, I have three monitors, one for the arrange page, one for the mixer, and one in front of my keyboard for composing. You can pull up any editor (or the mixer) using a key command or from the menu. You can also link editors to objects, where the editor will display the contents of a selected region (clip). Logic also has screen sets where you can pull up 9 different screen configurations by hitting a number key (up to 99 with multiple key presses). Logic has clip gain - its just not called that, I don't remember what they call it at the moment - it's under flex pitch. Logic can automatically color regions also.

I'm only sharing this because I feel it's important to compare apples to apples (pardon the pun). Both programs (and others) are perfectly capable of achieving good results and personal preference is a huge factor.

I just think a lot of people don't realize a lot of what these programs are capable of. Personally for $199.00 logic is pretty hard to beat, although I've been using it since the 80's when it first was Notator Logic on the Atari.

My two cents...

This is a great contribution to the site. I think I'm going to have to do this as well. Thank you.

I don't dgt much but I read a lot here. For once bear with me.

I fundamentally agree with the conclusion... PT has noticeably better mixing results (due to whatever summing or internal computation engine) but being quality paramount and at the same time cache limited, causes problems. I think it depends a lot on the use case. Briefly exposing ours.

Use case
Small independent studio with audio only recording, mixing and some mastering (not much Midi/VSTi, just some)
In use are PT 8 + TDM, PT 10 native (+UAD and Apollo) and L9 (+UAD and Apollo)
UAD plugins is a must
Waves plugins is a must
Quality is paramount

LP X
pluses
- Noticeably faster than L9
- backward compatibility with UAD and Waves (that have been 64bit for a while)
- flexis great and greater
- cheap upgrade
minuses
- Dark look and feel gloomy, after a few hours I was already in bad mood
- Summing and sound treatment (whatever it means in terms of internal processing) stages just ok
response
- migrate L9 to LX at once

PT11 demo
pluses
- better performance and performance management
- offline bounce (when applicable)
- same (to the ears and the monitors) high quality and excellence of summing and end result
minuses
- no key plugins supported (to hell backward compatibility and existing investment so far)
- need ilok2 (that's cheap but not free)
- PT native upgrade expensive
- PT HD upgrade VERY expensive as usual and need complete hardware overhaul for the PT 11 HD
response
- migration impossible
- keep existing PT systems
- expand PT 8 TDM with Magma and (very cheap) cards and live with it indefinitely

Not surprised that Avid is financially going downhill. They haven't noticed the audio (studio) industry is not the holy grail of cash.
I throw this in as a half joke, but haven't they realised there are products like Reaper around, that are in the 2 digits price range?
cheers

PS: considering Waves abandoned iLok, are they ever going to support AAX? Is there a mandatory relation between AAX and iLok licensing?
PS2: is Universal Audio willing to support AAX (direct competitor) in the UAD plugins/engine?

I'm scared to sync my ilok:(

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Yes, both are coming with AAX shortly. Universal Audio say they should have the AAX ready in Q3.

I think it depends on the user. I originally started on Logic Express 8 before upgrading to LP9. For no other reason than wanting to try Pro Tools because it was the "industry standard", I started with PT10 when it was first released. Being a home recording hobbiest I cannot give a professional opinion but I can shed some light (IMO) on both new versions. The biggest with me for PT11 is the same as most. Plugin compatibility. All my plugins except waves (until today) are now available in the PT AAX format. Unfortunately, it is going to cost me more money for the waves update plan to be able to take advantage of this compared to others that were presented free of charge. A big downfall for me although not Avids decision. Secondly is price. I don't mind the $299 upgrade from PT10, but then I have to add $240 for my waves plugins. LP X is only $199. And last, (for me) is restrictions in PT. With my setup, I can only open up 48 audio tracks in PT. Although I may not use it, it still feels like a restriction unless I shelled out a lot more $$$ for a HD version. LP X offers 256 audio tracks and is more than capable of doing most anything that PT or any other DAW can. I like the simplicity of LP and unless my hobby turns out to be more than just a hobby, I think I will stick with the logic choice for me, Logic Pro.

I'm really not sure how it's even possible for you to come to this conclusion based off of some of your "cons" for LPX. Firstly, in LP you can pop out the mix window from the arrange window, so that you have that PT style 2 window setup. Not only that, but you can make a shortcut or hotkey to do it with just a tap of a few key. No mouse involved. Your complaint about the GUI I can understand in terms of brightness, but as for the "consumer product" complaint, that's just silly. Just because it's a little bit more chic in terms of design, doesn't mean it's a lesser product. Both PT and LP are consumer products. All products are made for consumers... As for the sound of the song in PT as compared to LPX, I'm not really sure it could sound better between two programs, but I'm no software engineer so I'll let that be. The Marquee and Selector tool (LP and PT respectively) are almost identical in function... so there shouldn't be any complaint there... I'm not sure what you mean by PT is more responsive than LPX either, it's very vague... As for clip gain, the region inspector in LP has a gain parameter. Not quite as in depth as the PT clip gain tool, but easy enough to use in conjunction with the marquee tool.

SO!

Now that I've reviewed your review of the two... your argument is invalid.

Nothing there would either sell me or be a deal breaker on either DAW.

Argument Invalid .. I could say the same about your review of the review .. Lol. You guys are funny. Logic Pro And Pro Tools are consumer products because they are used by consumers. Even funnier. Thanks for the laughs .. Made my sunday as i sit here at Work ..

Cheers john

Wow that's nuts! Someone downrated you for that, just letting you know it was at minus one, I just put it back up for you. Finding it really difficult lately to tolerate totally undeserved downrates here. Anyway, you are correct, pt11 performs rather well overall with vi's also, a total world apart from previous versions. I did tons of benchmarking when I had the demo, I couldn't get used to the workflow but performance was on par with logic and had better core distribution.

Hey thanks...I didn't notice but it doesn't surprise me up here ANTI PRO TOOLS land lol

I agree what hurts PT right now (and always for composers) is the workflow. It's very slow even with templates set up beforehand. With Logic 9 I feel like a surgeon with an assistant holding all the tools on a tray right next to me. I can work really fast.

In PT, Just assigning the same midi track to the same VI means adding a new Midi track, assigning that midi track to the VI, and getting back to work....where in Logic you just choose "New With Same Channel Strip" etc. Little things like that make a big difference when on deadlines. They add up. On the other hand, in PT, I'm in complete control of the mixer and how it's laid out at all times, and I don't have to go to another window to rearrange tracks in the mix window. I don't have tracks flying across the screen in the mixer window as soon as I put them in an automation mode like in Logic, screwing up the order of things and back to the arrange window again to put it back to where it was. Ugh. I also don't have PT asking me every other time I delete something if I am SURE I WANT TO DELETE SUCH AND SUCH.

So a lot of things balance out, one must choose their poison with all DAWS to an extent.

TH

Hi guys...sorry to get here like a bomb, it's my first post and I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

I took a look at some audio comparison of PT and LP, and it always seems that when it comes from Logic it has much more bass frequencies. I would think to some different mixing but it just happens in any comparison, and they are not related at all.

Can maybe some of you guys who has both PT and LP run the same wav file into one and other and just export it? I know it sounds crazy but this is a comparison that could really make a difference...

Or maybe that's already been done and I just didn't find it...

They sound the same, plugin ui can cause some people to tweak differently IMHO or some plugins just sound different.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Why would you state this as a 'con', Logic X having too many sounds easily available, thus making you overproduce the song? The song's arrangement is up to you and your own discernment. It doesn't matter whether you have many sounds or no sounds. You said it yourself, the song was bigger in PT with less stuff. Now if you applied that same concept and had less stuff in your song in LX, it would probably sound the same. It's common sense, and Arranging 101. DON'T BLAME THE DAW.