Have you heard both of these mics? I'm curious to know what you HEAR when comparing the original and the replicate.

So you know where I'm coming from, I recently bought a pair of AEA R84s which will probably be sent back. Just not happy with them - they don't compare to the 4038 or the Royer SF-12. Thin! And I think the null on the R84 is much "smaller" and therefore less useful than the 4038's. I did enjoy the R84 on an overdriven guitar amp, but only when it was used 6 feet off the amp. Didn't like the sound near the grill.

I'm happy with the Coles 4038 on trumpet but I think it can be better, hence the interested in the AEA 44/RCA originals.

(Steve, I'm using this forum because I want to get responses from those of us more experienced in recording jazz.)

Thanks!

Rob

Most of us who do recording know these mics quite well. If you can find 77s or 44s in good shape, by all means, BUY THEM! You may still have to replace the ribbon.

These are workhorses, mainstays in the industry since their inception. There are several people who provide restorative & repair services for these mics as well.

Personally, I find the R84 to be a killer ribbon mic, and I have chosen it over the R44 and Coles 4038 for some projects. By the same measure, I have selected matched pair 4038s over R84s for a drum OH project, but after we were done I decided that either pair would have worked very well.

One of my best jazz trumpet recordings to date was done with a U47 longbody and R44 at Power Station. The R44 did 90% of the work, and I took a tiny bit from the 47.

On that session, I tried three different 77's first before settling on the 44 as the main mic. Here's the thing about horns and ribbons that I learned in the 1980s: with most mics, you are not supposed to hear a perfect representation. We're choosing brushes and colors. The ribbon mic is a rose colored glass to filter some artifacts from the horn and provide a more mellow impression. The reverse side of the figure 8 is just as important as the front, as it gives you the room reflection. The mic is only one part of the equation, the room, gobos/absorbtion/reflection is a huge part as well...and that assumes you have an amazing player in front of the mic, at the decidedly appropriate distance.

I think all the mics you mention have specific qualities and are excellent at specific jobs. I'd want a matched pair of each in my "perfect" mic locker.

After much rambling (sorry) I have found ONE great sounding 77DX in my lifetime, the rest all sounded thin and lifeless. They probably all needed re-ribboning. The 77 I loved was refurbed by Clarence Kane with a NOS ribbon, and was privately owned by a major trumpet player.

I hope these thoughts help!

Jim

Jim,

Among your many great points, the one that hits home is that you've only found ONE great sounding 77. I'm curious to know how AEA's replication stands up to see if it is really worth trying to track down the "real thing" (understanding that once I found one I'd probably have to send it to Wes Dooley anyway).

I guess my original post is a bit confusing and ignorant on my part... of course the AEA R44 is not a replication of the RCA 77... but it seems to be the closest, readily-available mic.


Rob

I'm producing a jazz octet date at Bennett Studios next month. The mic list (of included gear, noit rental items) is short on tube mics. They do have 2 Coles 4038 and 2 AEA R84. 4 ribbons total.

Here is the instrumentation:

5 horns-1 each of ,trumpet, trombone, alto, tenor and baritone saxophones.

piano. bass, drums.

I can use the Coles on the brass and the AEA 84s on the alto & tenor and use a LDC tube mic on the baritone (or bring my oktava ml52 ribbon).

How about that? Ribbons for all the horns. What do you cats think?

Check out the mic list at Bennett.http://www.bennettstudios.com/north.html

Sorry if I'm off topic, I know you were talking about 44 & 77s. But you guys seem to know ribbon mics well. My experience is limmited to RCA 44 & 77, Coles 4038 and Royer sf1. I've never worked with the AEA r84. I did do a mic shoot out with Walter Sear, Andrew Williams and David Baker about 8 years ago. AEA 44 vs. RCA 44. (Also Lawson L47 vs. Neumann U47).

Sonic Circus has a vintage 77dx on their website
http://soniccircus.com/s.nl/it.A/id....=2&category=23

I don't think the 44 sounds like the 77...but as I've had some weird, if not bad, experiences with the 77s, I'd talk to Wes about his re-creation. I find AEA to be a great resource. Since you're considering sending back your R84s though, perhaps Wes would trade you a 44...it would be logical, no?

I think you'll have a good session! have fun, let us know how it goes!heh

I have not yet heard the R84, but I have a 77DX that was reconditioned by Clarance Kane that is absolutely one of the best I have heard. I think Clarance knows what he is doing... I would just send him the mic you get and have him check it out.

How did that shootout turn out? I know it was a while ago... but how did the AEA 44 and the RCA 44 compare?

The session sounds great... I am hesitant to recommend the R84 to you at the moment, but I think it'll be fine based on what's at hand.

We recorded piano, saxophone, clarinet, trumpet and trombone at the Sear mic shoot-out.

The AEA 44 is as good as the RCA 44. Walter has several vintage RCAs and they are all slightly different.

Walter also has a nice AEA 44-C

What does it cost to re ribbon an RCA77dx? I have three, and they're all in rough condition

Has anyone used the active aea (expensive)?

Active mics are overrated. If you have a good pre-amp with lots of gain, you don't need the extra boost from an active ribbon mic.

I use Royer 121, AEA r84, RCA 44/77, Coles 4038. They're great mics even with a mid-level pre.

The AEA r84 and the Coles are in the same price-range. I like them better than the Royer, although the Royer is good too. I use them for brass mostly.

If money were no object, I'd get the AEA44 with the slutty transformer.

Call Wess Dooley at AEA. He'll re-ribbon it for you. Maybe $150+shipping? Just a guess.

"Active mics are overrated. If you have a good pre-amp with lots of gain, you don't need the extra boost from an active ribbon mic."

Non-active ribbons are not very usable in buildings which are not optimally
grounded.

hey guys. thought I'd chime in for AEA. First off everyone probably knows 77s and 44s are very different mics. The AEA 44 we make is close to an original RCA 44, but there were many variations of the RCA 44 with slightly different sounds some not even made here in the US but across the pond.

RCA 77s are notorious for sounding different from one mic to the next. We get them in for repair restoration all the time. Best guess is the labyrinth that controls the polar pattern response, but that wouldn't explain why in fig 8 some still sound different. I have heard quite a few 77s re-ribboned by Clarence Kane and the guys up at Sivia classics and the variations are there as well. FYI re-ribboning an RCA is $140.00

As far as horns go, horns + ribbons = pleasure. I have been using them on live gigs for years and I have never had an R84 sound thin or have a funky null. I love fig 8 on stage they really can isolate well.

For certain players a 44 will sound better it really is up to the players sound mic pre etc. I know that on trumpet there are many guys who will only record on a 44 (original or AEA) Tom Harrell is one of them. Terrell Stafford recorded his live at The Dakota CD on Maxjazz on an R84DJV and he tours with the mic.

I was at a big band session here at Capital records, they used ribbons on almost everything. They have a huge collection. RCA 44s on all the saxes and bones, AEA R84s on trumpets. RCA 44s on Bass and guitar amp, 77dx on vocals. It was sweet.

And the powered mic is good, but for loud brass its not needed. You probably won't be adding much gain on your pre anyway. Maybe if you were doing a brass quintet they would work well. really a more distant type of mic by design, but has a different type of transformer so the sound overall and the low end are different.

cheers,

Paul
AEA

Really? I never noticed that. I have had a bad hum if the RCA44 gets too close to the light dimmer, but other than that the old ribbons seem to work fine in old buildings.

Ok it really depends on the exact building, mic, and how quiet the source is.


"And the powered mic is good, but for loud brass its not needed. You probably won't be adding much gain on your pre anyway. Maybe if you were doing a brass quintet they would work well. really a more distant type of mic by design, but has a different type of transformer so the sound overall and the low end are different. "

How is the sound different, can you describe it a little?

Okay, dig it! I hadn't thought of using a ribbon for distant micing. I only use them for brass, guitar amps and sometimes bass.

its hard for me to describe the sound. I'm bad at that type of description. The other reason is that as soon as I make them they seem to get sold. when I have a chance I'll do some AB shootout between a RCA44 and an AEA A440, but that won't be for a while. The other thing about the design is the whole impedance thing. the interaction between the actual ribbon through the transformer to the mic pre is now changed with the active design.

As far as distant micing with ribbons. If you have a classical guitar in a large acoustic space that is very quiet, with standard ribbons micing from say 10 to 12 feet back you are going to need lots of quiet gain to get a good signal to noise. The active ribbons are going to have more output and require less gain from the mic pre, which is where all the noise is going to come from.

I record a small girls choir every year in a large but somewhat non reverberant space. In order to get out into the critical distance range with a pair of ribbons I would have to crank the mic pre full open, in this case a TRP with 83dB of gain, but it becomes too noisy for my taste. A powered ribbon in that setting could get up to the levels I need without the noise from the pre.
Sorry I seem to write long posts.

Paul

The AEA R44SM has an even lower self noise, and only costs $895.

R-84s are thin? Funky null points? That hasn't been my experience at all. I also use them a quite some distance from the source lots of times. Take a look at this setup. R-84s and SF-24 w-a-y far away (relatively speaking).

Northern Europe has been too hi-tech for ribbons. (at least around here).
I bought first (and still only) 4038´s around here and fell in loooovv!
Now my ribbon-hobby is going...maybe a bit too far.
In addition to having 160,130,121,44b,77D,84,Sm330,Meazzi,Ev etc, I just bought an
AEA 440!

It rocks!
It is not to be used in front of screaming 412. It is for quiet sources. And it is almost orgasma****atic.
Only downside is that I only had money for one.
So, 5.1 ribbon has to wait for some serious royalties...

Lots of love for Wes Dooley and AEA team. He has also serviced my old mics. And hopefully will do it again when I blow them.

That's hilarious....

War

To clarify my post (from a year and a half ago!)... I was comparing the R84 to the 4038 and SF12. I don't think it has a "funky" null point - I think the null is smaller (or perhaps another way to look at it is the R84 has a wider pickup-pattern than the 4038?).

I haven't had the opportunity to use the R84s much recently but was able to use them in a great room on some horns a couple of months ago and I did like them. The null wasn't an issue with the rest of the group (including two drumsets played simultaneously) in the same space and some careful gobo-ing. It should be noted that the other engineers (and the musicians) in the room really liked them as well.

I do stand by my original comment that I don't like the sound of the R84 as much as the 4038s. But that's just my opinion.

But you may also notice that I still have the mics... a year and a half later

Perhaps my original observations had just as much to do with the room I was working in at the time as the mics? It was a large room with a very low ceiling... had to utilize null points carefully.

Happy to see this discussion revived.

One of my favorite subjects! Different ribbon mics are as varied as, well, different condenser mics.

I have 2 perfect Dx77's that I got when I was working at Brooklyn College in the 70's. They were pretty much in new condition, never used. I have baby'd those mics for years. And yet, they sound very different from each other. I don't use them much on sessions. Sometimes when I'm looking for a "signature" sound on something.
I have a boatload of Royers. Use them every session!!!
I bought an AEA 44C about 4 months ago specifically for upright basses. It is an amazing mic. I prefer it to the originals.
I demo'd the AEA 84 and thought it had a beautiful sound, yet I haven't found a place for it in my setup.
I had put away my Coles 4038's for a while when I discovered Royers. Lately they have had a resurgence for me on celli.
I have also been using Beyer 160's on Bassoons.

Can't get enough!

Alan

Do you have a favorite mic for a solo violin?

If you're talking ribbons, I love the 122v on solo violin.
Depending on the music there are alot of good choices.
I love the Schoeps CMC5 or 6 with an mk4 (cardioid) capsule.

From the "And now for something completely different" department.....

I recently tracked vocals using a U 89/Millennia Media STT-1 and an AEA R84/TRP together. Both mics in figure of eight, oriented parallel to the floor and about 16 inches away from Karyn Oliver, the vocalist. I got the upper harmonics from the U89 and the fundamentals from the R84. I did a mix, left it for a month or so to get it out of my head and came back to it this past weekend. There's something more complex and intimate about the combination that I really like; a very subtle added dimension.

I split the tracks out and uploaded them: .Mac - iDisk

Wes may be using them at the booth at NAMM.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I would be curious to try the 122v versus the AEA R84 on violin.