Hi,

I've been building up a project music studio and looking for advice / inspiration on the best way to spend c. £3.5k / $5k on the next round of investment in mics...

Context: My setup is built on UAD (Apollo x8 + Apollo x4) and I plan to expand XLRs further with a PreSonus ADAT interface imminently to get to 20 channels to also mic up drums. The room is a converted garage, reasonable amount of room treatment but not an ideal longterm space.


Current mics in locker:

• Townsend Labs Sphere
• Neuman TLM102
• SM7b
• Rode M5s (pair)

I'm keen to get a ribbon mic pair to get good guitar/vocal separation when recording singer songwriters as well as potential use on Drum OHs, so potentially Coles 4038. Also looked at AEA / Royer ribbons.

But there are some interesting boutique substitutes doing the rounds on here (many supplied via No Hype Audio) which could free up budget....

Also overdue a pair of 414s for a workhouse pair, and potentially more flexibility for different stereo recording techniques vs Coles.


Finally, a lot of the mics above are already in use (e.g. Rodes above an upright piano, will improve in time, Sphere as vocal mic with Aston Halo surround, SM7b in front of Nord Stage 3 for songwriting inspiration moments and TLM102 as a floating instrument mic)...

So keen to also get good coverage for Drums in the budget - good kick mic (AKG D112 / RE20), SM57 Snare, pencil condensor on hihat, toms mics (Sennheiser E604?) etc...


So... How would you spend £3.5k / $5k to cover:

- Stereo pair for blumlein/ORTF techniques (likely ribbon)
- Drum kit mics

And mostly aiming to invest well rather than buy cheap, buy twice...

YMMV etc etc but really appreciate any advice!


Thanks
Dave

In a situation like this it really helps to know why you want a specific mic and that you're basing that reason on the sound you get from it in use and the end mixed product you want to get, as well as how you prefer to work.

With drums it depends. What sound are you going for? For example, what recordings can you point to that give the sound you're looking for?

My personal solution is KSM137 in "narrow ORTF" overhead, and Mid/Side with ribbons out front, about 3-4 feet. Love this sound.

If you have Coles money, I say go for it. I have dreams of those. You could also look at the Shiny Box ribbons, Cascade, or any sort of modified Apex 205 ribbon mic (Michael Joly used to do these.) NoHype is also on my radar. Personally, I use modified MXL ribbons, the Apex, and love them, but if you have a budget, why not get the classic gear.

Kick drum mic: I would say EV N/D868 for a 'natural' sound. Sennheiser 906 for a 'modern' sound. I also like M88TG down here, sometimes outside the front head, sometimes inside for the beater.

Those little Sennheisers are fine for toms, if not mind blowing. An SM57 would do something similar, but be harder to place. I personally use EV CO4 for the hi toms and M88TG on floor tom, but maybe M88TG on every tom would be ideal. Not sure if you want to 'invest' in tom mics, though. The cheaper options seem to be adequate. D112 is also a pretty good floor tom mic for a big boomy sound.

Never miked a hi hat so I can't say there. SM57 is good on snare (lol) I use a Crimson Yellow version, from Front End Audio, a little more top end. SE V7X is also good, tighter pattern, less hi hat bleed.

New or old EV mics are also very useful on drums. I've used RE11, RE18, 660, 635A, worth shopping around for some.

Look into the classic mics which have been used on the big records. A lot of them are very affordable. If you can´t make it sound good with these mics then any better mic won´t help either. You don´t need the most expensive mics to learn. IMHO it´s better to learn to get along with what you have instead of dreaming how much better it could be if you had mic XYZ.
How about D112, MD421, M201, M88, RE20, SM57, M160, M130, 414, 451(not B), SM7(not B), etc.? Your budget will allow you to get all of these mics if you shop wisely.

Thanks guys, really helpful. I guess for context, I studied the Tonmeister sound engineering degree around 15 years ago so had plenty of time recording classic mics like 4038s, C12s etc through a big Neve console on to a Studer tape.

I'm aiming to build up my setup whilst still working in tech to eventually head back in to music production in 2 - 3 years. So some experience of the recording craft with great gear and looking to get a few quality mics in place, whilst agreeing completely that technique and talent are the biggest differentiators and also that a lot can be done with the drums esp, for little.

I'll check out the mic options there, thanks so much Monkeyxx and Jensenmann. For style Enlightened Head, I appreciate, compose and produce such a wide variety, but for songwriters like Phoebe Bridges, Henry Jamison, Patrick Watson, Bon Iver and bands everything from Cinematic Orchestra to Explosion in the Sky etc...

Important thing is I already have quite a few clients wanting production with a wide variety of styles, so aiming to have solid mics in place and adjust to taste during mixdown rather than particularly stylised mic sounds at source.

Key thing for me is getting the ribbon mic choice right and esp interested in any experience with quality ribbon mics to get good separation for singer/songwriter recording, recording guitar/vocals at the same time - thinking could get a stereo ribbon for guitar and pair with Townsend Labs as a vocal mic. Coles/AEA/Royer or boutique alternatives..

Will check out Shinybox and Apex as well monkeyxx - thanks

I'd blow it all on a single mic. . .or maybe a matched pair. But I find inspiration in high-end mics - and would be looking to build a great mic locker over some number of years.

I've got no complaints about more pedestrian - say my Sennheiser MD 441 U or AKG C414 XL II - mics, for example; I like them a lot. But my AEA A440, Heiserman H47Tube and Schoeps SDC collection inspire me far more.

I don't much dig dynamic mics - or ribbons like Coles or non-44ish AEA. I do like the R-122V Vacuum Tube Ribbons. . .and will likely add them among other things to my locker. We're each likely inspired by different things.


Get what inspires you. . .and I'll be happy.

Ray H.

people are getting amazing result with the earthworks drum setup:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...rum-kit-system

but your converted garage might be sub-standard for that mic setup. those mics pick up everything.

so you could go with a completely classic drum setup that features a number of directional dynamic mics to help with sound isolation:
pair of akg 414s for overheads: $2350
three sennheiser md421's for toms: $1200
akg or shure bass drum mic: $200 approx
km184 hi hat: $830
four sm57s for various purposes: $400

that's about $5000

those mics can then do double duty:
414: vocals, acoustic guitar, piano etc
184: acoustic guitar, shakers, violin, etc
sm57s: guitar cabinets, congas, etc.
md421s: guitar cabinets

the akg is highly multi-pattern. so you can do ortf, figure 8 with it, etc. a pair of them means you can do blumlein.

nothing there is a junk mic or a weird mic. those are industry standard mics with proven track records.

"quite a few clients wanting".
Hmm... Where's your U87ai?

If you're aiming for outside clients-especially us fussy singers, IMHO some will take you (much) more seriously...

When you sometimes choose your Virtual System, with a U87ai sitting right next to it.
(rather than just "telling them" how your Townsend as good or better-with no Neumann present)
Chris

- Stereo pair for blumlein/ORTF techniques (likely ribbon)
- Drum kit mics

Because of this, I suggest a pair of Coles 4038. The exchange rate with Brit is good right now.

No, no, no....

i'd get a pair of oc-818's as they offer by far the most versatility - for drums, i can suggest 904's or m201's rather than md421's for toms, d112, d6, m88, beta52, beta91or ae2500 for kick (the latter is useful on many ither instruments), a pair of m201' for snare or hats (or anything else) if not sm or beta57's for snare (and guitar combos).

no love for blumlein here (except for some very, very rare situations) and neither for fig8's nor ribbons in general (except for m130/m160 combination - the latter mic can do quite fine on guitar cabs, strings, horns, as overhead though).

that said, my choice of mics mostly depends on the acoustic environment/room: fewer but high-quality mics (mostly schoeps in my case) in larger rooms, more dynamic mics (mostly m201's in my case) in smaller rooms.

For ribbons, the AEA KU5a pair is gonna be a bit more versatile over the 4038 and less fragile than the m160 (no issues on bass drum and close vocals) and, like the M160 they will give you the max rejection you are looking for with the supercardiod pattern. Plus, you can get that 4038/M160 thing from your sphere if you need too.

Unless it’s otherwise not available you can sub your SM7 for any of the usual sm57 duties (but you should prob have at least a couple anyway). For kick I prefer the AKG D12VR over the b52, d112, e602, d6 but they are all workable.

I’d go with 414xls over the OC818. I wanted to like the 818 because of the functionality, I just don’t like the sound of the mic.

Sounds like a tooob mic might be worth adding… I’m loving my CU-29 with NOS valves.

Good luck with your quest!

Interesting - what about the OC818 sound didn’t strike your fancy?


Thanks for your thoughts.

Ray H.

Just a taste thing, really... something about the top end didn't do it for me...I liked it way better with the windscreen on. The mids are a just a bit more natural sounding on the 414. The polar designer designer may have gotten the best of my expectations too. The idea of having a tighter polar pattern for the lows has been intriguing to me since I learned about that being a feature of the AKG D19 (but I didn't like to idea of spending that kind of $$$ on a fragile mic), so I thought 818 was the solution, but there is some phase stuff that happens with PD that I didn't care for. For now, I'll hang on to my pair of XLS.

It's quite bright-not really harsh though IMHO. Otherwise sounded very good to me, when I sang/tried it a number of times.
Chris

funny how folks keep using mics with ck12 type-o-capsules for vocals: clearly my least favourite application!


anyway, imo everything a c414 does (any model), the oc818 does better! that said, i'm using mics from both manufacturers...

...and as usual, it's not about sound but features!

TLM 170R for double bass and another AEA R84 to use as drum overheads. Then the 414 XLS pair on overheads will be used as the fretboard mic on the bass and a end mic on the piano to fill in the spaced pair.

Super helpful, thanks deedeeyeah... OC-818s look interesting - do you tend to use these in most situations that a 414 would typically be used and prefer the sound?

And your note on blumlein / fig8s... Interested to learn how you would mic up a singer songwriter playing acoustic gt / vocal together in studio for good separation without using fig 8s for the null?

Obviously depends if the musical style needs good separation to treat the vocal in a specific way during mixdown, but assuming it does in this example - keen to learn!

And great input everyone, thank you. Likely I'll grab some 414s as the safe/workhorse stereo pair, and will build out the drum selection along the lines of some of the mics suggested here. Ribbons after that.

Austrian Audio has been mentioned (OC818) - has anyone found Lewitt multi pattern mics (e.g. LCT 640 / 940) starting to take on the duties of a 414?

Obviously no matched pair available for those models, but it looks like they're starting to roll out matched pairs on the line...

Anyway, just one vendor as an example but wondering if 414s will still be studio staples in 10 years, given a lot of feedback on GS that the modern 414s aren't a match to the earlier B-ULS....

Appreciate these are small differences and 414s have been staples for a reason... But sanity checking before investing!....

I've always wanted a pair of 414 XLS but that daggone price point stops me, my problem I know. The 414 is the "Jimmy Chamberlin" drum overhead sound and that's holy grail stuff for me.

Add a pair of KM184 and a pair of Coles ribbons and you've got the 'modern classic' setup, IMO. All three of these pairs would be good for drums.

My personal solution, (not for everyone,) is I'm going to DIY some CK12 FET mics myself.

You could also take a look at the Peluso P12 pair if you want some "toobs innit." Those mics aren't perfect but I've used those capsules and they're great on instruments.

the former - i don't select mics by 'sound'...
the oc818 is more quite and offers way more features so my pair of b-uls motsly only gets used when i ran out of any other options.

again: i select mics for functional aspects - every technique has its benfit and downsides: if you want some rejection, maybe start with a cardioid for vocals, with the rear pointing to the null of the guitar fig8 but maybe even 'better', use just a single mic for both, use a wider pattern and embrace bleed!
i don't like blumlein for its narrow pattern, 'cause i mostly want to record what's in front of the mic but not what's in the back and because its rear lobe is phase-revered - i do very, very rarely use blumlein in reverberant churches to pick up a choir though...
in most other application/when using coincident mic system, i prefer m/s, double m/s, ambisonic or occasionally x/y.

i do select gear according to style genre neither...
all my gear is fully agnostic of genre! i do vary a bit according the environment/situation but i could easily do in almost all situations with a bunch of schoeps (using a multitude of capsules), with some multipattern ldc's (which have a wide cardioid pattern) or then a dozen of m201's...

I'm the exact opposite. I'll take some bleed or a little bit of self noise in a mic before making any concessions on sound. Actually, most of my favorite mics have a high self noise rating (U67, Schoeps CMC6, Sanken CO100k...)

The difference between the OC818 and XLS is greater than the difference between B-ULS and XLS and the difference between OC818 and either AKG is not that big... If you can't make any of these work (assuming you are going for the 414 type sound), something else is the problem. I'll happily use an 818, but I'll be the dude that puts the windscreen on a drum OH... indoors....LOL
Don't worry what people on here say about XLS not being as good as B-ULS. Any mic that is older/not made anymore/hard to get will always be "WAY better".

Judge for yourself:
https://sonicscoop.com/2016/10/27/cu...akg-c-414-2/2/

I have a Lewitt LCT 550 and it has been a perfect match for a handful of sources, but again, like the 818 its a bit too bright and something else up top that I'm not over the moon about. I just seem to prefer bright mics to be tube or at least have transformers more often so they are softer up top. I'd love to try the 940, havent had a chance to yet.

fine - for me (and i know i'm in the minority here), 'sound' is what's happening in front of the mics and what comes out of the speakers; in between, i try not to mess too much with what's going on...

and regarding schoeps, of course they have higher self noise than many ldc's (and some other sdc's) but not all 'noise' is equal!

at least we can agree that we both seem to like schoeps ;-)

Seems like sound reasoning.
Chris

"not all "noise" is equal" ...Thats the key phase there!

No doubt... Schoeps are fantastic

speaking of schoeps (sorry i mentioned this before in other threads):

i once got to compare 96+ mics from three different manufacturers (using a huge desk and an absolutely insane forrest of mic stands as you can imagine...) so that all mics were 'up' at the same time; by using three dca's i could switch between the mics (or actually the entire mixes): i my opinion (and i wasn't alone...) schoeps had outdone its competitors by a large margin even though noise from one of the competitors was noticeably lower.

what bugged me even more about the competitors was though that things became 'un-eq-able', at least with all mics in use (up to maybe two dozens, i didn't care or couldn't even tell much of a difference) - something which of course can also get experienced with much less mics if they have a very pronounced frequency response which is far from flat (which is the reason why i avoid using say more than two sm57's at the same time like the plague).

the microphone test turned out to be more of a mixer test (that led me to choose my current desk), which i value precisely because of the absence of a sound of its own, which i can't describe any better than with transparency; this not only goes for the preamps or filters but also the dynamic processors.

maybe this explains my view on 'sound' (as mentioned in my previous post) a bit better...

...and possibly also that i'm thrilled that schoeps will be releasing a digital mic preamp body which takes another component out of the equitation!