+1 !

with an expanded Reverb 6000 I can do THREE separate 5.0 reverbs that sound AMAZING......... better than any plugin reverb that I have ever used.....

and better sounding than ANY piece of Lexicon hardware or software, in my experience....

I like the VSS4 HD newer algorithms, so much I decided to go 48K analog I/O to get 4 engines (plate, room, vox, Hall) over 2 engines when running 96K digital I/O... I know the higher clock sounds a bit better, but the tradeoff is great having the HD algo running... I would love to compare to the M7, but I don't feel I'm missing anything on not having the Lex Native verbs which are really nice, but I feel set with enough reverbs when running the HD's

actually.... i was wrong.... there isn't more DSP with the upgrade (according to TC Electronics) .... so i could only do TWO 5.0 reverbs at once.

bummer.

I wonder if I could do two 5.0 reverbs and two LCR reverbs all at once... I'll have to try soon...

No need to defend.
I can understand owners keeping their units.

But investing money into 10 year old technology with redundand hardware is something totally different.
It´s not that there are no plugin competitors to the tc algorithms in the meantime.


The "impressing clients" was not meant agressive at all.
In fact I wished I still had my larc since clients
loved it so much watching.
It´s also the way the studio is being perceived by other engineers

- even if the lexicon plugin sounds "EXACTLY"
like the hardware the "quality perceivement" is different.

My point is: We all are sentimental like this from time -
but is sentimentality something of value ??
Since we all have DAWS and a hw controller of some kind
nobody - if he´s honest - NEEDs the tc icon for working.

So while existing owners probably will keep their units
INVESTING money in another piece of metal and chips
is a bad idea IMHO.

As the business gets hard and harder
we need some more forward thinking.

If this is true, it's bad news for all of us. No added DSP means no development of better verbs. TC has thus decided to stay out of the High end verb competition, just keeping the grounds that they've already occupied. VSS4 does sound great, but not in the same league as an M7, which I think uses more that 50 times the DSP per channel than the VSS4. DSP isn't of course everything, but it allows more (precise) calculations, delays, more, more, more, etc. This also says, no more development of other refined mastering tools, etc.

That also puts a lid on the future of Powercore. Plug emulations will keep getting better, but also demand more DSP (Waves Masserati and Lex verbs are too hungy for HD).

TC has probably decided to go native in the coming years. And the MKII is a way of getting $1.5K from all current users before the bail out.

well.. it was TC Electronic that told me "no added DSP in Mk2 upgrade" so i'll take that as fact.....



bummer!!!

I'm underwhelmed by the update. The price is good but it doesn't seem like there is much to it. I have been hoping for ages to have 2 things added to my M6000, Firewire for DAW integration and a full matrix mixer. When I first read the name Matrix 88 I was stoked but reading their site and watching the youtube movie it looks like it only has 2 aux channels (not sure if they are 2 stereo pairs or 2 mono channels) and the main mix. Not exactly a matrix there TC...

Can we infer from the lack of a floppy drive that the new system can be upgraded over the network? That would be nice.

I agree it would be nice to have the M6000 taking a step closer to the Bricasti. If it's true that the DSP was not updated I really don't see the point. Was the DSP RAM upgraded? At an AES show a few years ago a TC rep mentioned that the RAM for the DSP was a minor constraint.

Disclaimer: I am not an owner of an M6000 or any of the soon to be mentioned gear.

Here is what I want to add to this mix (pun intended) and also what I would like to get some answers on:

According to TC's literature, 1) "Running with any Audio Unit or VST based DAW application, you’ll only have to use your creativity to get the sound that high-end mastering studios and Oscar-winning sound designers have been able to achieve from the System 6000.

The 7 pristine algorithms included with PowerCore 6000 are ported 1:1 from System 6000. Due to the fact that PowerCore 6000 and System 6000 share DSP/Ram hardware design, the algorithms are not emulations: they are the real thing.

The PowerCore 6000 plug-ins share the intuitive user interface known from System 6000 including the "Focus Fields" that allow you to place any parameter from any parameter page in one of six quick access fields in the buttom of the user inteface.

PowerCore 6000 is preset compatible with System 6000: seamlessly import presets made with System 6000 and use them immediately in your Logic Pro project."

2) "Processing Delay = 0.15 ms + 0.21 ms per engine @ 48 kHz, 0.07 ms + 0.1 ms per engine @ 96 kHz" but what that delay is input to output is another story as this only specs the "processing delay per engine",

and 3) the AD/DA specs can be met and exceeded without Meitners, i.e., with RME and SSL converters.
------------------------------------

My home rolled q9450 machine is more than capable with an RME 9652 of getting me down to .5 ms of delay at 48k and without knowing the exact numbers off of the top of my head, I think it's safe to say that input to output monitoring through plugins I can get around 1.5 ms delay. This is no different than the performance of a DM2000 and other higher end digital baords. Currently I have a DM4800 that handles the AD/DA for me but I'm planning to upgrade to an MX4 with MADI AX or RME M32 -- still debating the trade-offs between the SSL's 96k specs and RME's 192k specs. I know, I know...find a way to demo and listen. I'm also considering an Equinox with a 2500 for some higher end analog summing and processing flavor.

Also, it's only a matter of time before ALL of the M6000 algorithms/plugins are ported over to the Powercore 6000/X8. You guys know it, and I know it. The mkII's sales are going to be lackluster and TC is going to further explore that previously expanded and tapped revenue stream. So, whether or not the 5.1 algorithms are available NOW is a non-issue. VST3 compliance will make that more of a non-issue. The fact that they didn't improve the DSP in the mkII makes this more of a certainty. Regardless of whether they make new algo's or not, there is still only so much DSP to go around.

Now, with all of that said, why is the case being made for a higher professional standard and sonic difference between the hardware M6000 and the DAW hosted DSP based plugins when all things being equal, they really appear to be equal? TC states that the DSP is the same, the memory is the same and the algorithms are the same 1:1. It's all 1's and 0's in either case and in lots of cases, including my own, it's also all Windows based.

So, here are my other questions:

1) What is the quantifiable amount of DSP processing resources in a System 6000? I have not been able to locate a definitive answer to this one yet.
2) How many Powercore 6000/X8 units does it take to equal the processing power of an M6000?
3) How many Powercore 6000/X8 units can you install on one computer? I believe that it's at least 4 but I think I remember reading somewhere that it was 6 or 7.
4) How many DSP's are there in an M6000?

I know that if I sat with this long enough I could come up with a few more but this should do it for now. Thanks in advance for all of y'alls time and input on this for me. I really value what many of you have to say.

Ellis

You get Four engines = 4 different algorithms/tools "plugins" at one time.
Seems laughable right? Well you need to put this into perspective.

A stock 6k comes with 8 channels of i/o. You can upgrade that to 16 & can internally route as needed.
That means you can have a 7.1 mix being processed with one engine & the other 3 acting as stereo to 7.1 verbs. It's whatever you need it to be.

A fully loaded 6k is works well for surround needs & with consoles setups. The four 6k's I deal with are used with DFC's in the surround realm. They have been in service long before the plugins came to be. They still get used everyday along with the current plugs.
It's simple, when you need to process a signal ITB use a plugin, When you have a mix on a surface you use the hardware. nothing more nothing less.

As long as there is a console in place the 6k will have a home. It's not a question of what the better $ deal is. It's a what tool is best for the job. In a working studio time is worth more then anything & workarounds will end up costing more at the end of the day.

I fear the answer to all PowerCore and System 6000 (MKII) wishes is to find in T.C. not having (anymore) the man power to really develop for such systems. They can't even bring out their drivers for current operating systems out of a beta state for a long time. The System 6000 is their crown jewel and I appreciate the desire to care for it but I have no illusions at the moment for new developments. Nevertheless it seems quite attractive for me to upgrade my System 6000s. I wish they could bring out the driver development for the PowerCore out of the beta state for Snow Leopard. Then I could use my PowerCores some more years to come too. TC is holding me back updating my studio computers to Snow Leopard right now. All other software and drivers I need are already updated. It's a mess right now with TC.
I really wish I could be proven wrong by someone knowing something about new developments behind the curtain.

This seems to be TC's major problem. It's hard to understand why they want to be so secretive with their support. Feels to me like a company with a bloated marketing department. I hope they don't forget why TC is on the radar. Quality. If they lose sight of that, then they are just another MI manufacturer like Alesis or Behringer.

Upgrade for original users set at $2000, I can live with that but..... what about the new Icon? I don't see any mention of that or is that included...?

If there were great news, they would share it.

The new ICON is just like the old. The difference is in the CPU, which is not part of the upgrade. The new CPU is faster, which was needed to make the LM5D meter display smoothly. I guess upgraders will have crappy display.

The upgrade is essentially a $2000 dongle for future software upgrades. They said that they couldn't give it away anymore. I don't know why they don't skip the charade and just charge for new software.

So, despite the presentation, an upgraded system is not the same as a new MKll.

Assuming that there will be more software...

so has anyone done the $2,000 upgrade?

any thoughts?

Here's my question:

Anyone know when OS v5 will be released for existing System 6000 users?

I've written to TC but no reply regarding the ICON MKII. I mean, if we're going to 'upgrade' our 6K's to the MKII, might as well upgrade the Icon as well, right..... but not answer so no idea so far...

I hope you’re not in a big hurry. I got an email about the upgrade on April 12, and called right away to ask a few questions. I was told that I would get a call back soon…

When I read something like this I get more and more the feeling that TC is not interested in their professional customers anymore. They cannot get out information, updates and service calls ... we deserve some info about the future of the system, what is planned or what is coming next. A similar situation is found with the PowerCores. Snow Leopard development takes ages ... TC seem to develop a kind of 'bunker mentality' and try to sit there and hoping the 'things' just go away or people don't notice.

yeah.... i get that feeling too... a little bit....

The upgrade is only for the mainframe, not for the remote...

No news about what is new in the mainframe... the I/O is not enough...

Best

That about sums it up! TC is now selling guitar and bass amps, and have always done well with effect pedals (which is interestingly where they got started). And they can probably make much $ in those markets than in post pro. As I've said, the lack of DSP upgrade of the 6K (IMO) means that TC plans to go native in a few years, even for their high end verbs. I know that most post prod is done on digital desks or in PT, so routing wise, ITB verbs should be possible. And with the current 12 core CPU (and future unlimited cores), power should no longer be a problem.

About the TC upgrade, I contacted them and found out that ONLY the mainframe is upgraded so....

you end up with an aluminum mainframe and a black CPU and black ICON..... wow, what an upgrade, makes your system look like it was thrown together with different parts!

The full upgrade to 'all aluminum' mainframe+cpu+icon is = 5400 EURO.

Oops, I pressed Edit instead of Quote and ended up deleting my old post. Oh well..

well, for a very small # of people... Reverb 8 does do some cool stuff....

TC Electronic Introduces Infinite Reverb for System 6000 MKII - Press Releases | TC Electronic

I bought a System 6000 from the Todd Soundelux auction, and had quite some hassles until it ran properly. TC support was top notch, they even called me in Switzerland from Denmark and went throgh some steps with me, sent me floppy drives for free two or three times, and replied to all my e-mails in a timely, very friendly and competent way. I'm very pleased with TC support for professional studios.

Anyone using this upgraded version these days?