Hi all,
Using 11 Suite on my home PC (HP i5 8400, 12GB RAM, 512SSD I think I paid $400US refurbished) I With this pretty basic setup I've never run into any real issues. Wish latency was a little lower sometimes but that is about it. I'm not running anything intensive ever. Maybe 10 - 20 tracks and no super heavy VSTs.
I'm looking to move to a laptop so I'm not stuck in the basement where my studio is set up. I would be more productive and use more if I could get out of my studio in the basement and be able to sit in the front room with some natural light or just hang with the family and do some noodling with headphones on. Would be nice to be able to bring when traveling too.

Looking to keep things on a lower end budget as this is just a hobby. Since I'm a pretty light user I was thinking that I could get by with a new PC with i7/ryzen7 chip or Mac M1 with 16GB RAM. Does this sound like a reasonable thought process? It would be an upgrade to what I have and future proof me for a bit longer than going with an i5/ryzen5 and or 8GB RAM. I have no background with Macs so not sure about lesser/older models that are respectable.

A few other questions I have, as it's Black Friday time and figure deals abound.

Graphics Cards - Is there a need for an upgraded graphics card other than what's stock on the board? Is this something worth paying for? I'm not a gamer and this will only be used for production.

PC vs Mac - I've never owned a Mac, always been a PC guy, and outside of my production PC, I'm really almost all on Chrome devices. So any programs I have are PC based. Does it make sense to stick with PC for conversion simplicity or are the benefits of the Mac far superior? I'm not a Windows fan by any means, it's just always been what I've used for work and price differences between Macs. I know everyone says the MacBook Pros are great, but I'd like to keep sub 1K if possible. Then again if I can get 5 or more years out of it, like my current setup, might think about paying a little more.

a simple macbook Air M1 will be a good simple machine for basic work like you describe. It's also the sweet spot regrading apple pricing/value, however they're still outside your budget as they start @£1295.00

If you need a laptop then you're always going to be paying more for reduced performance compared to a desktop.

The m1 macbook pro's are well outside your budget as will be any comparable windows laptop...however for $1000 you could build a very good desktop machine.

the $1000 windows laptop is a bit of a mine field regarding it working well for a DAW. You might get lucky , if you can try one with yor audio interface and software of choice and return it within 14 days for a full refund then try a few.

perhaps try find a used M1 macbook Air .

Be aware some things still aren't Apple silicone ready so check your software and interface first.


M

That's some excellent, helpful advice from a knowledgeable and accomplished musician. Let's hope this thread doesn't spiral downward.

Yes, thank you for the input.
Looks like the 2020 M1 MacBook Air with 16GB is around $1100 US, the 2022 M2 MacBook Air with 16GB is $1300 US.
Is stepping up from an M1 to an M2 the right decision. Used to be nickle/diming, not it's hundo/2hundoing. Adult hobbies, right?

I prefer simplicity over complexity. But give me 10 mins and I'll prove that statement wrong.

Not sure off hand but I'm sure you can google the differences between the two and find your answers

I've a feeling there's not a lot of difference but could be wrong. it's possible the older one may have more ports or ports that are more useful to you so check out all that kind of thing as you may find the older one is a better bet anyway.


M

My advice would be to stick with what you know — you know the PC OS, you know how to solve problems.

I’ve used Macs at home and at work and for music for decades, I’m comfortable there. I can solve problems. If I had to set up a PC for audio it would be a major pain in the ass.

But if you’re ready for a change and really WANT to switch, go for it. The Mac will be easier to configure, a lot of times things just work, that’s not totally marketing speak.

As a Mac user, I would caution regarding the ever-updating Apple Universe. It's frustrating sometimes. Personally I would never relish the idea of switching to the PC platform - it's a different culture and language. My vote? Better the Devil you know - stay in the PC realm.

that's a good point .

I'm coming from someone who has run windows /OSX and Linux systems for many years so I'm probably not as aware of the differences as someone who uses only one OS, so bear that in mind.



M

Yes.

No and no.

As others have said, stick with the PC, even though that means continuing to tolerate Windows.

Also Macs from what I gather tend to be a fair bit more for the same processing power. And there have been issues with some of the newer chipsets.


? Where are you getting this? I've tried just about every DAW under the sun on my measly $500 laptop with no issues. Nor have I heard of people having issues with Windows generally.

If people only truly understand the problem of using macOS, upgrading it, and having all your software break every year...

...or the problem of wanting to upgrade your RAM, GPU, or hard drive, and not being able to because Apple has soldered them in place...

...or not being able to use the software you have downloaded because it's not notarized on Apple's servers, so the operating system blocks it from running...

...Macs are great if you know exactly what hardware you will need at the time of purchase and never plan on upgrading the OS, and use mostly Apple software. Otherwise, a world of headaches, but some people love them...

What's so curious on the PC side is that I can find two laptops with almost the same specs (processor, ram, SSD) yet they are many hundreds of $ difference in price. What makes a Dell Latitude for $500 different from an XPS for over $1000? I'm guessing the screen and graphics cards. But from an overall usability perspective, one is as good as the other right, at least as a DAW PC?

30 plus years of running computers for music professionally


I never said anything about windows issues at all. I said a sub $1000 windows laptop can be a mine field if you want to use it as a DAW. You've been lucky, this forum is filled with windows laptop issues. Things are a lot better now than they're ever been in that regard but it's still not guaranteed an off the shelf windows laptop will work well a s a DAW.

An apple laptop WILL work out of the box as a DAW so that's something to think about.


By the way I'm a windows advocate and use windows computers in my studio and have a windows 12900k Laptop along side a MAcbook pro and a music laptop running Manjaro linux.





M

Mac user for 14 yrs and I’d stay away from it for everything except for the drivers working no problem as opposed to PC’s, but I’m no fan of PC’s either.

As mentioned, constant upgrades with macs.

What I did was switch from PC to Mac completely, 15yrs ago. That was a big mistake imo.
If you go mac, stick with your PC for some things. Keep familiar with it. Because we’re in the middle of monopoly wars and these companies are missing more quarterly estimates, and therefore are potentially much more likely to put in ads, or some dark pattern bs to keep users buying their bs. Instead of delivering rock solid reliable products.

From my experience, Live ran more efficiently on a PC but I’m not sure if that’s still the case as I use Live sparingly on Mac.

look at the difference in price between motherboards for instance? power supplies etc etc. even RAM so there's a lot of 'other stuff' that can up the price even with the same CPU and amount of RAM.

the XPS will have a case made from aluminium or magnesium alloys whereas the cheap one will be composite (plastic). The quality of the fans and heat sinks etc will be better on the XPS so it will run cooler and not throttle perhaps as much as the cheap one.

But yes the GFX card and screen quality will be a big factor as well.

M

Great information everyone, thanks so much for your background, experiences and recommendations.

Sometimes a certain platform just clicks with you, and you can't ever really know until you've tried it out for a while.

I used Windows/RME/Cubase for over 20 years. Had two custom-built machines in that timespan, so problems were kept to a reasonable minimum. One day about 8 years ago a college student gave me a "broken" Macbook Pro. Rather than repair it, her father had simply bought her a new one! I'm a tech idiot, but I opened it up and found/replaced a broken ribbon cable...good as new! Started playing around with it just for kicks, then wondered how Cubase would run on it, eventually found myself using it more and more until it finally replaced my (admittedly aging by that point) PC.

Fast forward - two Macs later, I'm currently happy as I could ever imagine. The platform just fits me in so many ways. Similarly, I never dreamed I would ever leave Cubase either, but I'm 6 months into Reaper and haven't opened a project in Cubase except to render tracks to insert in Reaper. So, I guess all I'm saying is there's no substitute for trying something yourself, really giving it a chance to fully appreciate what it may offer you. Best of luck!

Amazon is selling the MacBook Air for 799

I have used and Asus RoG Laptop for producing and had great success!
It was well built and very well cooled.

I would never get into the Apple environment. It's too locked for me, and you will be at their mercy, with expensive and planned obsolescence shit.
Have you seen their charger cables disintegrating? LOL.
Every person I know that uses apple computers sooner or later are crying because of updates, getting robbed, the price of accessories, lack of ports, etc.etc. Either that or its like John Hanes was telling in an interview some time ago, they go years without updating anything in their system afraid something will break... Poor guys!

The thing with PC laptops is that you can have an excellent build or a terrible build with the same specs, so its not so easy to find a good one.
If I were you I'd look into a gamer laptop (good cooling, good size) from a reputable brand. Check the internet for any known issues, and you will probably be fine, it will outlast any macs while being up-to-date the whole time.

Good luck!

Life is too short to deal with crapware and windows Trojans
I totally disagree. I’ve been on the Mac since 1992.

Unlikely. esp knowing my luck lol

Beyond perhaps the very lowest end, cost has little to do with a DAW working on a Windows laptop, esp if as the OP said the demands are modest. I have a Ryzen 5 with a mere 8GB of RAM and no issues. It's more a question of if your demands get larger, you could notice slower/lesser performance. But you make it sound like below a certain point, DAWs often simply don't work, which I don't think is true.

Not meaning to split hairs, but a laptop is not a DAW. It's a piece of hardware that runs the DAW software. As for Windows, well yeah it always has issues But so do Macs, and esp lately, I seem to see more people complaining about Mac issues than Windows ones regarding any music software.

Really? Then why am I seeing people talking about issues with Apple's M1?

it's NOT 1992 anymore. Things have moved on......


M

Exactly!

Windows 10 is rock solid. Never had a problem with malicious software.
I run the same pc computer since 2015 now, and since then I have upgraded my RAM, GPU and storage, added many USB ports, and it runs flawless everyday. Never had any software stop working because of updates. If anything goes terribly wrong I can buy a replacement part and be back to work in 6 hours. And all that for a fraction of the price of a mac.

sorry, I’m in a intense mac user and I would never use windows again

Yeah I get you! I feel the equivalent but opposite way.
heheh

If it has to be a laptop, then I’d switch, as long as you can afford that path, given Apple’s typical trajectory of doing everything it can to get you to pay more, faster.

But nothing yet beats an M-based laptop for performance + battery life, as far as I know.

I'd have a different recommendation if we were talking about a desktop (hint: Windows-based).

Ha! Nice to have confirmation on this. I keep thinking I'm doing something wrong. Piss poor construction. Yes, Apple accessories are a) required in some situations and b) stupidly expensive. It's like how Epson sells printers for cheap (relatively) and charges up the wazoo for ink. But I'm otherwise happy in the Apple ecosystem mainly because it's what I know.

All platforms can be fine or like hell if you're unlucky.
So it's a matter which type of hell you find more comfortable.
There is this law called 'The conservation of misery' derived from Murphy's law.

As for laptops I'd say current the best price/performance ratio are Apple M1 macbooks. But what others said that comes with 'benefits.
If you can buy a used one you can give it a try and if it doesn't work for you, you can sell it again at a minimal loss.

I feel for the OP who is getting wildly different opinions based on people's personal preferences. Let me add mine (sorry!).

Having had umpteen Windows laptops and a few Mac laptops, I can say that I personally have yet to run into a PC laptop that is as durable as the Macbooks I've had. I'm writing this on a 9 year old Air which works as well as it did when new. Cosmetically, it's no prize, having dropped a few times. Keyboard, trackpad, hinge, screen - all no issues. I have replaced the battery a few times, of course.

My DAW machine is a 9900K Windows machine. I recently picked up a new M2 Air (16Gb, 1Tb) as my main work laptop. And, I compared the two. The Air is slightly more powerful (can handle more plugins) when throttled. When not throttled, it can run about 25% more.

I also didn't have to do the tuning exercise/driver dance that I did with the Windows machine to get low latency.

If you're inclined to stay on PC, you could consider a recent model Microsoft Surface. A few months ago I looked for the smallest and lightest weight music computer for travel I could find. I got the Microsoft Surface Pro 7+. i5 cpu, 8gb ram, 128gb internal ssd, Type cover (keyboard).
The i5 version doesn't have a fan, so it's totally silent, and haven't had any overheating issue (I always have a temperature monitor running on my screen). The i7 does have a fan, and so do all models of the Surface Pro 8. It comes with Windows 11 Home. I think they are around $800 now. It doesn't fit securely on the lap when the keyboard is attached though, due to the way it stands up.

This channel is has a lot about using a Surface for music:
https://www.youtube.com/@MoltenMusicTech/playlists

I've been happy with it running medium weight projects. I use Reaper, which is generally known to be relatively easy on a CPU. Ableton may be more demanding in some cases though. The above youtube channel usually uses Bitwig I think, which I'm guessing may be similar to Ableton cpu usage, due to them both being 'live' oriented.

Added the Samsung external portable SSD T7 Shield USB 3.2 $100

I got the Shure MV88+ usb stereo mic, which also provides a headphone out. It doesn't come with an ASIO driver, so I usually use the one that comes with the FL Studio demo download (the demo can be uninstalled while keeping the driver). It's latency only goes down to 256 though. For 128 latency, ASIO4ALL or the Windows WASAPI driver can be used, but if using regular windows applications at the same time, there sometimes is a conflict, where as the FL driver is ok.

The audio from the computer can be used without an interface, just plugging into the computer's headphone socket, but I sometimes hear a faint low, but not buzzy, hum if power is plugged in. On battery it goes away. It wasn't too annoying and mostly I could ignore it for non critical mixing. No hum plugging into the usb mic though.

Earphones: https://www.etymotic.com/product/er4xr-earphones/
Their frequency balance is very good. For mixing, I only give them just a little bass boost and a subtle tweak to round off certain highs (using Realphones plugin).

When it comes to laptops the big problem with windows is that laptops use a lot of components as the wifi antena, the keyboard, the track pad, screen and so on for which its developers make very mediocre drivers, and so if the drivers introduces some problem is very rare it gets fixed at all. |Plus the bunch of bloatware most laptops come with.

maybe the windows surface is actually more like a mac, but the support isn't that long either ad they are expensive.