Should we choose mixers that have balanced main outs only? Why do some mixers have XLR outs and some only have TRS outs?

I am deciding between a Mackie 802VLZ4 and a Yamaha MG10XU as my portable DJ mixer, which will also be used occasionally for small live music gigs. All of the Mackie mixers specifically say "balanced XLR" on their 2x main outs. The new Yamaha MG models (haven't even shipped yet as far as I know) do have XLR, but none of them say specifically "balanced". The older MG10s only had TRS cables.

XLR cables are lowest impedance in general, but not all XLRs are balanced, right?

TRS is generally balanced as well. At least on respectable mixers. I have only not seen it on cheap, nasty no a name Chinese mixer or two.

TRS is positive negative & shield just the same as an XLR.

And before it's asked:

TRS balanced connections are often used on smaller equipment simply because they take up less space than XLR connectors.

If it's an XLR connection, it is safe to assume it is balanced

IF it's in proper working order. After nearly 60 years of dealing with audio connections, it is NEVER safe to assume anything. Yes, it is PROBABLY ok, but making untested assumptions can compromise any trouble-shooting IF there is a problem.

You know what they say:

If I assume something, I'm making an ass out of u and me...

well ok, safe to assume it is supposed to be balanced at least. I can't think of a product Ive seen that has an XLR connection that was unbalanced.

if it is broken then that is a different thing

I guess in my first post I was a bit confused, all "TRS" are balanced 1/4 jacks while "TS" is an unbalanced 1/4 jack.

How much gimmicky marketing lingo is used with mixers also? If you look at the Mackie VLZ4 I/Os, all of the TS/TRS inputs says "bal/unbal". But the Yamaha I/Os say "UNBAL". Is Mackie being deceiving? Or are their 1/4" inputs really that much better on a same price-point mixer?

Another thing I learned is that that any balanced connection is marked as "+4dBu" whereas unbalanced connectors are marked as "-10dBu". Does this actually mean balanced connections are capable of carrying/producing [?] signals that are 14 dB higher?! That seems to be extremely important when configuring a live sound rig...

Assuming that a given sound system is only as good as the weakest link, should we strive to make every single connection a balanced one, and use DI boxes if necessary in between balanced and unbalanced connections?

Is a signal coming out of laptop and through a sound card inherently balanced? (This question possibly represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole concept...)

Slow down there, pard.

All TRS connections are not balanced. Some are stereo (think dual unbalanced mono) and some are "send/return" connections... bi-drectional unbalanced mono.

Your second point is also hazy. Some 1/4" jacks will accept/output either TS or TRS connectors. They're different animals, so to speak.

Again, this is not a correct understanding. +4 and -10 are designations of signal level and have nothing intrinsically to do with whether the signal is being delivered by balanced or unbalanced connections. You are trying to associate two entirely different things here. +4 level is generally spoken of as "professional level" while -10 level is commonly referred to as "consumer level".

Yes. This is best practice.

No. If you're referring to the "headphone" output via a stereo mini-plug, you are getting L/R unbalanced stereo.

If you want to get balanced audio signal from a computer, you can use a USB interface or something like a Peavey USB-p which is a USB DI for output only from a computer. The nice thing about the USB-p is that it is driver-less, so you only need to select it as the audio output device from a Mac while a PC auto-selects it...at least it does on my PC's. But they're all XP. I haven't tried with anything more current.

As to your "fundamental misunderstanding", I think I covered that above regarding how TRS connections can differ depending on function/purpose.

Thanks Wyllys. That indeed helps a bit but does present some more questions. The second part of that first quote refers to this:

http://www.keymusic.com/gfx_productc...ie-802VLZ4.jpg
Mackie mixer clearly says "Bal/Unbal" for each TRS jack.

Whereas

http://static.bax-shop.nl/components...0XU_02_top.jpg
Yamaha mixer, all the TRS say "Unbal".

I was wondering if that somehow makes the Mackie "better".

I do have a USB interface, I should have specified that, a focusrite 18i20. On the rear 2x main out (1/4") it doesn't say either bal/unbal or +4/-10, so I wasn't sure if this is balanced or not. I want to feed my interface out through one of those two mixers, and out into my speakers/subs. I was wondering how I could do this all "balanced".

I will likely have all of the XLR inputs on the mixer occupied with mics. Would it be bad to have phantom power engaged (if I had a mic in) and have the interface going into XLRs simultaneously?

In higher end pro audio, not always the case, and sometimes as an intended design direction, such as:

ADR Compex F670X - XLR I/O, unbalanced like the original, although you can add balanced IO for extra.

Thermionic Culture is another one who uses unbalanced through XLR for their units.

Always best to check... and correct on when you assume...

I cannot really give you a good answer as the info you're providing is unfortunately not really clear enough. That, coupled with your (at this time) limited understanding of your gear makes it hard to help without asking for detailed intent, links to your gear (for verification) and actual diagrams or detailed descriptions of the actual routing.

Sorry. Nothing personal. We all have to start somewhere. Wish I could be more helpful, but it's all pretty cloudy...

"Focusrite 18i20...On the rear 2x main out (1/4" TRS, it doesn't say either bal/unbal or +4/-10) through one of those two mixers *linked to above*, and out through my powered speakers/sub." Balanced or unbalanced?

Why is that so hazy?

It gets hazy when requisite information is spread out through multiple confused posts. It's better to get it all in one package, so to speak. It also helps anyone trying to help you if you provide clickable links to your gear to save "research time" in giving you free assistance. In fact, if you went to either the Focusrite site or the site of one of the major on-line retailers to get a link, you'd notice that the product literature clearly states all 10 outputs on your unit are TRS balanced connectors. If all else fails, read the manual.

It's also a bit "hazy" as to why you'd try to use an 8 channel set of pre-amps fed into another device for live sound. In live sound you'll need to have the ability to regulate the levels of each channel with a fader. Trying to balance the mix fed to the Mackie or the Yamaha by messing with the input gains of the Focusrite is not really a viable setup unless you're just using it to sub-mix keyboards and such. Even then it's better to have faders after the pre-amps. For live sound, I'd use equipment designed for live sound and leave the recording interface at home. You can easily find good used sound consoles these days for less than the cost of the Focusrite. A&H MixWizard for analog, Yamaha 01v if you want to go digital.

As a "general" rule, 1/4" output connectors in such a situation as yours means a line level signal, or +4. RCA connections are "generally" -10 in level.

Any connection which has to travel more than a few feet should be balanced to maintain proper level and to reduce the chance of any interference. If you need to interface balanced/unbalanced stages, using one of these will suffice:

Ebtech HE-2 XLR 2-Channel Stereo Hum Eliminator with XLR | Sweetwater.com

In addition, the transformers in such a unit will provide needed isolation when interfacing two systems or connecting portions of a single system which have to be powered from two different circuits where the possibility of differing ground potential exists.

Hope all that helps. I'm outta here. Best of luck.

That does all help a lot. I appreciate it.

I did check the focusrite site but didn't see the words 'balanced' or 'unbalanced' anywhere on the product page, but now saw it in the pdf manual.

Thanks again.

It's always a big plus when anyone asking for help says, "I read the manual, but I still have a question about...."

I was amending my last post while you were posting, so I'd ask you to go back and re-read the part about live sound gear. It's buried in the original text.


Again, good luck however you decide to do it.

It is not gimmicky. The Mackie will accept a balanced or unbalanced line. This is because it is wired to accommodate both. The Yamaha is wired only to have unbalanced. At least with regard to your posted example.

[QUOTE=vinvanda;9805582]I can't think of a product Ive seen that has an XLR connection that was unbalanced./QUOTE]

You obviously have not seen some of the outrageously bad products available out of China. Unfortunately I have seen some folks who have purchased these products and then called me to help get them working. In some cases it is a miracle that the board even passes audio and in other cases they are downright dangerous as they do not conform to standards and I will not touch these ones.

Right on.

Yes, well I *am* confused... that's why I'm here. Your post was very helpful thanks.

I hear what you are saying, so now I just need to figure out which is more important. I really love the Focusrite and how it works in my ableton set-up. I am drawn to a mixer so I can can possible host some open mic nights; a more conventional means to sum a guitar or two, vocals, a keyboard and a bass. What are my other choices, just a dedicated sound card pulling from the laptop out to the mixer?

I'm aware that there is likely as much that I *don't know* that I don't know, as I *know* that I don't know.

Also, thanks for turning me on to Allen & Heath... hadn't even really seen much of their stuff before. But you are "outta here" so whatevs

The bal/unbal means that the input will accept either. I think the Yamaha 1/4" inputs are actually TS rather than TRS. Not sure why someone would be design a mixer to use TRS for an unbalanced signal. I've seen weirder stuff though.

If I may add my own $.02, I cannot stand the Yamaha MG series and would rather use almost anything else. If you're choosing between the two I would strongly recommend the Mackie.

Thanks for the reply. I am now leaning towards the Allen & Heath ZED series, based of the recommendation from Wyllys.

Do you think it is worth it to have onboard effects on your mixer?

The Soundcraft 2400 was such a beast. Plus, pin 3 hot. That being said, unbalanced OUTPUTS through an XLR really don't cause a problem and cable interference is suppressed by the balanced input amplifier on the other end, but unbalanced INPUTS on XLR's... that's a curse, a double curse if pin 3 is hot. Grrr.

Please understand that this is just my personal preference. I don't use many effects when I mix. I see way too many guys get hung up in effects when their mixes sound awful. Audiences will prefer a clean dry clear mix over a poor, over-effected mix every time. I will use a 2s-ish hall reverb, high passed at 500hz for my vocals. Not enough to hear, just to open it up a little bit. Also if I have a keyboard with organ patches I'll use a rotary speaker sim. If the bass DI is thin I'll use an amp sim on it. That's it. I'm a purist.

I don't tend to like the onboard fx on those little mixers. The Mackie ones and the Yamaha ones are pretty poor in my opinion. I find the verbs to be tingy sounding and very noisy. But I have not tried the ones on the ZED series so I certainly won't make any statements about it.
I wholeheartedly agree with Wylly's statement that the A+H small format analog stuff is one of the best options out there. I think you will be very pleased with it if you get one.
Hope this helps.
-m

The servo-balanced (will take balanced or unbalanced) circuitry in the Mackie has a rout in it that will detect an unbalanced plug and tie low-to ground so it will work with the balanced plug as well. Its not a trick, its just different circuitry design.

Actually, the Yamaha is probably the same as the Mackie. I'd be prepared to bet that the "Unbal" legend on there is referring to the channel inserts, not the line inputs. That was the case on the older MG series mixers anyway.

[Edit...] Having said that, I've just glanced at the MG10XU on Yamaha's US website and it does look as though the stereo channel inputs are unbalanced. Whether the mono channel line inputs are also unbalanced isn't really clear. Interesting choice on Yamaha's part.

Well, there are no inserts so that part of it is moot. Here are the schematics on the input jacks for each of the two mixers. As you can see, the Mackie does indeed have bal/unbal configuration while the Yamaha is bal only.

Like I said, the older MG series (MG10C for example) do have channel inserts on the mono channels and have balanced TRS line inputs on those channels too. However you're quite right - it does look like the stereo channel inputs were unbalanced on the older mixers as well as the new ones. The stereo channel inputs look to be unbalanced on things like the n8/n12 as well. Seems to be a standard Yamaha design decision on their lower end/mid-range mixers of any type. Interesting to know - I hadn't spotted that before.

Aha! So this post was worth something

Another detail is that "-10" usually refers to a -10dBV signal level while "+4" usually refers to a +4dBu signal level. The dBV and dBu refer to different standard reference levels thus you cannot directly compare the two. Instead +4dBu=+1.8dBV while -10dBV=-8dBu, so the difference between +4dBu and -10dBV is about 12dB rather than 14dB. One example of where the details can matter.

Most balanced inputs will accept balanced or unbalanced signals but an unbalanced input is limited to unbalanced signals. Also, an output may be impedance balanced but not provide signal symmetry with an inverted "-" signal.

As far as onboard effects, some sound good and people make great use of them, others don't sound as good and/or may be poorly applied. I guess the real question is why you feel you need them and how you plan to use them, getting them just because you can and not because you have some purpose in mind may not be the best idea.