I'm a guitarist who has been making electronic music for years. I have very often had the realisation that the biggest obstacle I face is that I can't play keyboards properly. So, I plan on doing something about it.

I currently have a 2 octave midi controller that I use for sticking basslines, etc. in. What I would like to know is what I should be looking for in a controller for actually learning the instrument on. How many octaves, key action etc. I'm not looking to spend too much as I am unlikely to become a piano purist. I just want to get comfortable with proper two-handed playing and then more than likely I'll be triggering Kontakt instruments and soft synths. At the moment the Nektar ix61 is looking like a candidate.

Also, I would like to hear of any success stories with regard to online lessons or piano learning software. I'm ok paying a sub or a reasonable amount for a software product. Due to work commitments lessons with a human are probably off the cards.

Thanks!

I personally consider 61 keys to be the absolute minimum. Having the full set of 88 is however nice - a decent digital piano usually has a better feel than a controller (but will generally lack knobs/sliders).

The thing about a human teacher is that they can observe you and remind you about posture, finger placement etc and pick material you'll like and feel challenged by. Chances are that you'll also have to un-learn some habits you picked up by yourself.

I guess you need weighted or semi-weighted keys and 61 or 88 keys. I guess I am not sure what you mean by "actually learning the instrument on"?

My wife is a piano teacher and teaches various kids in the area. So I get to hear and see some of the lesson plans she uses. The teaching includes proper posture, correct fingering, practicing scales, rhythm playing, reading music e.t.c. All those fun things kids need to know to do to pass Royal Conservatory of Music exams[1]. Pretty old school stuff. There are some other stuff I have checked out online and tested and seems pretty good IMO . Wolfgang and Tonara seem okay, but she does not use them for her students.

But I guess my point is, you slouching over a desk crowded with samplers, cables, recording gear, effects and reaching over to play on a weighted key midi keyboard while twisting your neck to stare at a monitor screen with a Korg module digital piano on it might in my view not quite be how I see other kids learning how to play. I'd say, if you really want to learn, get a decent digital piano with weighed keys and its own stand and chair so you are positioned correctly.

Wolfie for Piano App

http://tonara.com/


[1] http://www.amazon.ca/RCM-Examination...20Examinations

Given a different house, I'd probably go down the digital piano route - the missus would love one so it would be the easiest music purchase ever. However, as things stand I have exactly what you describe, a DAW setup and some boxes, in a bed-less bedroom, and no space for anything else. So I have to make that work.

I found the time with a coach invaluable and I did have to unlearn lots of bad habits. The biggest stumbling block? Unweighted keyboards (which I'd more or less learned on) had left me with the impression that moving from the finger, wrist or forearm was acceptable. No. The motion needs to come from the upper body, the arms need not to resist, and the fingers need to be in a position and state such that the impact with the keys will not injure the player.

I don't think unweighted is a fit way to learn. Now that I've gotten piano/weighted technique, I can play unweighted in such a way that I am effective. I would never go back to the way that I had been playing.

Unfortunately, most 61-key boards are unweighted and most weighted boards are 76 keys or more.

I like the semi-weighted actions like on the Dave Smith instruments, and Roland's higher-end boards.

edit: If the wife is potentially into the idea of a (digital) piano, is there other furniture that you could get rid of? I think if I were evaluating this, those Casio Privias are real nice. The high-end one has a pretty configure-able synth on it, if I understand correctly.

I have researched various digital pianos as I have purchased two in the last five years. I have also been taking lessons for over two years. For beginner piano, you don't absolutely need 88 keys, but I would recommend it. At minimum, 61 keys but you may end up wanting 88 keys as you progress. Finally, you want the best weighted key action you can get for the money.

Here are the different levels of digital pianos that I came across during my research:

- First, you have your really cheap, non-weighted (or cheaply weighted) beginner pianos that typically have built-in tutorials. They are in the $200-400 range. My recommendation is to avoid these period.
- Up from those in the $500-700 range, you have your basic digital pianos, made entirely from plastic with "grand action" weighted keys. They include 10+ different sounds, sustain pedal, MIDI, a built-in audio recorder and that is about it. This is what I purchased as my first and is what I recommend for beginners. I had a Yamaha P90 and it worked great for beginner to early intermediate piano.
- Up from those, you have glorified versions of the previous model. The key action is about the same, but they come in much nicer cabinets (wood) and probably better speakers. I believe they also come with a pedal board with all three pedals. You only really need a sustain pedal for beginner-intermediate level. Some may also have built-in computer for lessons. Price range is probably $1000-2000. I wouldn't waste my money on these.
- After that you get into the higher end digitals. The top of the line pure digitals that I looked at were Yamaha Clavinovas. These are in the $3000+ range depending the features. The models with built-in computer and instructional software are as expensive as $6000+. A piano in this range probably has the best grand piano key action for a purely digital piano. They also have high quality pedals that feel like a real piano. In my opinion, you at least need something like this or a real piano if you are going to get really serious. You won't be able to get into advanced material on a cheap keybed. You need the weight to build proper strength in your fingers. I now own a Clavinova and I love it. Mine is just a standard model without the computer stuff built in. I added a couple upgrades like better speakers, wood keys with synthetic ivory tops and polished ebony finish.
- Finally in the digital piano world, there are hybrids. They have digital sound source, but use real hammers, dampers and strings to trigger the sound. These are the most expensive, getting into the $7000+ range. Of course these are going to produce the most accurate piano action. These come in both upright and grand piano format. This is probably the only type of digital piano you can get with upright piano key action. All digitals I tried have grand piano action.

61 is just too small, 76 or thereabouts very good happy medium, weighting doesn't really matter unless you really want to learn how to play piano pieces on a piano (in which case it does). Tons of stuff on youtube - if you can't read music, then use this opportunity to learn a little - it's a slow process, but when it clicks you have access to so much stuff to learn the workings of that it feels a bit like cheating if you've always played by ear.

For that kind of money one can get the Real McCoy. heh

You can get by with 61 keys if you're not really looking to become a true player - just to pick up how to play better, but you will find yourself in situations where you wish you had the 88 keys.

I'd go for at least semi-weighted, but I'm also a piano player having grown up learning on the real deal. (so I'd really recommend good full-weighting) Usually you don't find that in a controller however.

From a learning perspective - yes, you can learn some things from youtube. It will take you longer and you'll probably learn some things incorrectly because you don't have someone there telling you you're doing it wrong. Not to mention, having a teacher and a responsibility to show up at a lesson prepared every week or two forces you to practice - which is altogether to easy to blow off when you don't have that commitment.

Thanks for the replies everyone, plenty to mull over.

I started just over year ago with teacher. He has experience in production and modern tech. Also good insight in theory. I worked great with me, can't recommend that enough.

Good info already, go at least 88 weighted. I have korg sp-250. It's ok I guess, but it's not grand in a nice room.

Here is straight line in recording with basic piano patch with very little verb. Needed to punch in couple of times. It is simple little composition.

https://soundcloud.com/flyinggeorge/piano_work27

If you can't have a digital/stage piano because of space restrictions and you decide you want weighted keys then the Roland RD64 is one of the very few options. it has better key action than the 88 keys controllers (keylab 88, mpk 88) and is as good as some cheap digital pianos (p105, casio 150).

And it have some on board sounds and all basic midi controller features.

Yes, but there are some benefits to a hybrid. They take up less space, you can adjust the volume or use headphones and they don't need to be tuned, though I imagine you probably need to perform some kind of maintenance eventually.

This is an excellent point about taking lessons that you don't hear too often. When you are paying for lessons, you better feel obligated to practice because if you don't practice enough to show any progress during each lesson, you are wasting your money. There are weeks that I tell my teacher when I don't feel like I got enough practice in, but you will have that. It is a commitment.

When I started, like many others, I just said to myself that I am just looking to build my fingering skills and pick up theory. It was only a short matter of time that I found myself wanting to be a pianist. I really enjoy learning and playing the piano and I want to be able to play at a advanced/virtuoso level one day.

Yup. You can get aq brand new upright for $3.500 to $4000. A used one for $500 to $1000. Neither will help the OP as he is a bedroom producer. [1]

[1] FWIW nothing beats playing or learning on a real piano. But you are in for a hassle when you have to move.

I recently checked out a Physis digital piano. It looked cool and LCD was interesting but I failed to see value in it at the $5000 price point. It didnt sound anything near as good as a medium quality brand new upright which can cost about the same and definarely less than the Physis $8000 higher end model.

I feel one has to have a goal. e.g. prepare to pass a level 1 RCM exam or something like that. It created personal motivation to stick with it and achieve a certain knowledge and skill level.

I think this set-up is the best of both worlds.
(Can't believe nobody could name that tune @0:44)

I never heard of them, but I see they are made by Viscount. Are they digital or hybrid? I agree that all the extra computer stuff/LCD screen is not worth the extra money. The Clavinovas have the same thing in the CVP series and they are priced about the same. I have a CLP model.

The only hybrid pianos that I've heard or tried are the Yamahas. I believe the upright hybrid is around $7000 and the grand model is $10k. There is one that looks like a baby grand which is probably around $15k.
Being where I live, a real piano is not an option. I need to be able to control the volume. If I had the money, I would definitely bought a hybrid, though, if I had the money, I would probably be living in a house that I can put a real piano in.

Do you know exactly what you want to be able to play on the keyboard? Will this be your own compositions and you want to play them yourself in order to humanize the performance vs programming them into the sequencer?

If so, it's pretty simple. You should get a hammer action 76+ keyboard, especially if piano is part of the sounds you intend to use in your music. Next, watch some vids on posture, ergonomics and how to hold your hands over the keyboard. Or find a keyboardist friend to help show you this. Lastly, practice! This part should be familiar from guitar. Things like scales/arpeggios, chord changes, etc. You can tailor it specifically to what you need to play--for example if you want to do chords on the left hand and melody on the right, practice chord changes on the left until it's automatic and then add some melody on the right until you can do them independently. The best type of practice in this situation is just to try to play your own compositions until you are happy with the results.

Yeah, pretty much that. I'd like to use keyboards as a compositional tool, as very often the guitar is not the right tool for the kind of music I'm making. Then I'd like to play stuff live into my DAW before I get onto the editing and mixing. I hear a lot of music in my head that I'd love to be able to get down quickly. A midi guitar would also do the job (possibly) but it's not ideal for putting in rhodes, or piano, or pads, and even then everything would end up sounding like guitar lines. Guitar was great when I was in bands, and I still play a lot, but I rarely record it - usually just effects and odd noises that I process heavily. For everything else I spend ages mousing notes in.

I figured the best way would be to forget all the DAW stuff and just focus on learning traditional piano. I only need to get it to a point, but at the same time I'd like to do it reasonably properly.

One other thought that occurred to me, but I was too busy to search yesterday...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...n-instrument-1

Whenever anybody starts discussions like this I cannot believe it when people suggest learn to play on anything less than a 88 key (weighted) keyboard.

You play guitar. If somebody advised you to learn guitar by playing a ukulele on the basis its a bit like a guitar would you consider that good advice? Its the same difference between 88 and 61 keyboard options.

By not going for the 88 key option you are not only doing yourself out of notes (you would be surprised by the amount of songs that need those notes too, it gets very irritating not having them), but by not playing on the weighted keys you just wont build enough strength up in your fingers. Without that strength if you ever want to play real piano you will find very hard on your fingers, possibly impossible as the playing "action" will feel wrong to you.

If you learn on a weighted 88 key keyboard you will not only build up the necessary strength to play properly, but then if you go to a synth action 61 key keyboard later you find it is like playing through butter and find it even easier play than before.

If the objective is to learn real piano playing skills its win-win with 88 keys, 61 and you'll just be a synth player for ever.

As for what instrument to buy: If you can afford a real piano get one cause frankly ALL plugin piano's are sh*t. No really they are, its utterly beyond me why people rate things like Ivory 2, Native Instruments pianos and the rest. It just feels like you are playing a sample that isn't responding to how you are actually playing the keyboard. They're maybe good for "in the box recording" but no substitute for the real thing. ROMplers/digital pianos get a lot of stick on places like this and may sound "plastic" in some respects but their makers usually calibrate them properly to actual playing and I would say they are still better than plugins in that respect. Team them up with a decent reverb effect (if they don't have one built in buy a effects pedal) and they can sound reasonably convincing.

But ultimately nothing can top the real thing, the real sound, the sustain you'll get from the notes, the feel of keys, etc, etc. If you develop into a good player that can read sheet music you wont regret the decision and by playing keyboard it gives you a deeper insight into music theory. It will also make you see new possibilities when you return to playing guitar and give you a better insight into how other instruments work. Which is what you want if you are composing.

I've used a 76 key unweighted for 20 years and it's fine as well as portable. I have a baby grand also - difficult to gig.

For a beginner, piano weighted keys is the most important thing in my opinion. I don't think there are many 61-key boards that have that kind of weighted action. 76-key is absolutely sufficient for beginner, but you may as well go with 88 at that point. 76-key boards aren't typically cheaper or anything. I think of weighted 76-key as typically being high end workstations.

Price has nothing to do with getting a real piano versus digital, unless you are talking about a nice grand or baby. People give away real pianos all the time. The biggest drawback to a real piano is the size and weight. That is why people give them away for free. On top of that, you can't lower the volume and they need to be tuned. For someone just starting to play piano and the choice was to purchase a digital or get a free acoustic, I would probably tell that person to get a digital. They are much easier to put away or sell if you decide that it isn't for you.
Also, a beginner is not going to care about how accurate the sound is. That should not be of any importance really. The action of the keys is the most important thing. My first digital piano had s**t sound but I was able to learn how to play with it.

I don't think an acoustic piano is necessary at all to learn piano. In fact many cheap uprights and consoles have much worse action and sound than a medium range digital piano.

Thanks everyone.

I ended up buying a Nektar P6, as I use Bitwig and Reason and it seemed like a great match. I was going to put it behind my computer keyboard but quickly realised this felt cluttered and weird and so it is on another desk at right-angles to my monitors.

I have the sheet music for Imagine and learnt how to play the verse last night. This process taught me two things:

1) The P6 is perfectly adequate for learning keys and will be a great compositional/live VSTi recording tool.

2) I may end up enjoying piano enough in it's own right to buy a nice digital piano when I have room for one (we're up-sizing later this year).

Hearing proper, actual piano sounds (Kontakt Factory library, I started with The Gentleman but ended up preferring The Maverick) coming from my own playing was a complete buzz. It completely took me back to when I started guitar at 15.

So yeah, awesome.