hellos, Just because I'm paranoid, I ask this question:

In the past I have accepted direct fast bank transfers for payment for synths with no issue. Tomorrow my buyer wants to pay me with paypal. It's over £5000. I'm in London UK. Any potential scams I should know about? I think I will insist on bank transfer instead.

your thoughts?

For that money I'd be delivering it in person after payment is made and meeting the buyer. If they are not happy with that I'd not go through with the sale. I've always sold synths on eBay/here/KVR using PayPal and never had a problem mind.

he's coming to my house to demo, pay / collect.

Aparently there is a scam I just read about which is basically paying with a fraudulent paypal account.

I'm quite wary of the buyer... he doesn't say much and we've only messaged on FB so far.

He's probably just as cautious as you, hence wanting to use PayPal and not carry the cash, he can do it on his phone and hand it to him after you receive your PayPal confirmation, take a photo of him with the synth maybe in your house(if he doesn't mind) and keep copies of any communication you have. All secondhand gear is sold as seen btw legally(to my knowledge).

Bank transfer for that amount is advised, I wouldnt trust Paypal. Trust your intuition.

Agreed - face to face, then bank transfer, although maybe he needs PayPal to put it on a credit card

Probably fine. Trust intuition. Tell them to take passport and proof of address

I would also only do a bank transfer with that kind of money, paypal fees will be painful otherwise, remember that you don't have to rush anything and could always cancel it if anything feels even slightly off.

I sold an fx unit out of my rack where I was using it. Sold on eBay, dude paid with PayPal. A week or two later suddenly the unit has “issues”. He takes it to a tech, it is ****ed. He files a complaint with PayPal who never even contact me and who immediately side with him and overdrew my bank account refunding him his money.

Now I have a very expensive doorstop for my troubles.

I wouldn’t take PayPal for a sale like this ever again under any circumstances. Dude obviously took the thing and did dumb shit with it and ruined it and stuck me with the bill. Thanks Elon! Shit now works exactly as well as a Tesla self driving vehicle.

NawwwwwSun's experience came up in my research for other sellers

paypal will protect the buyer, you can get screwed...!

DO NOT DO IT

DO NOT USE IT

IMHO

I've sold a few synths off-site. I have them meet me at work where there's tons of security and cameras. The deal is always cold, hard, cash. If the communication is spotty, I would be very wary. For all of my in-person transactions, phone numbers are exchanged pre-sale and actual conversations take place almost immediately. Often, the buyer and me become friends. I just bought a Montage M6. We talked on the phone almost immediately after hinting on Reverb I'd like to do the sale off-site.

As a backstop, I always check my buyer's knowledge: I asked, "Why are you selling?" He replied, "Oh, I just bought the Montage to create some patches for a client, and since I mainly do sound design for _______, I don't need a Yamaha board." He says, "Check out my Instagram [tons of pics of his studio]." We chatted about movies, other synths, etc. Again, every in-person buyer I've met was super friendly and I was able to verify their knowledge of other synths before the sale.

Reverb and eBay always appear to side with the buyer—you're at their mercy if you encounter a dishonest buyer, or simply one with buyer's remorse.

Use Transferwise (now known as Wise).
Lower fees, they have to verify the seller and buyer with bank accounts, etc plus lower fees than PayPal

I got screwed by Paypal when they sided with a buyer.
As a seller you have zero protection and take on risk and high fees.
Avoid Paypal would be my advice

I once sold a reverb unit in perfect condition, buyer said it was broken and Ebay/Paypal refunded. I had no recourse at all. I ate $180 because, what can you do. If that had been $5K+, though ... ?

Never, absolutely not for face to face.

But if you must, create a bill of sale, as proof the buyer received the item, agreed to terms (I always assume items are as is), before handing it over.

Paypal is fine, but you have to cover your tracks in case the buyer make some claim, like you sold them something that was not in the condition you said it was. Produce a bill of sale that has a prominently displayed bit of text that says, “By signing, the buyer agrees that the item is as described and that there will be no refunds for any reason.” Make sure the serial number and model are all listed, also take a photo of the serial number for your records. Make them sign it and a copy for themselves and take a photo of them with the synth. If they balk at any of that, send them away and tell them to come back with cash. There is still a chance that the buyer will try and dispute the payment, but if you have them accepting the synth and a signed invoice that basically says, “as is, final sale,” then PayPal will side with you. I had this happen with the sale of some iPhones. It was a bit of a pain in the ass, but I had high resolution photos of the phones which had been sent to the buyer, who was just trying to get free iPhones.

I'd be wary of this. Trust your gut.

Whenever I've sold anything expensive the buyer has always had some kind of internet footprint which matched up with somebody wanting to buy an expensive piece of gear.

I'll also add every successful sale I've made has followed the same pattern. Emails, then text, arrange a time to check out and pickup. Any deviation or anything unusual has meant the sale would not be happening 100% of the time.

If I ever feel the slightest bit of suspicion or something is unusual, I'm cancelling.

In Person == Cash, period.

A few things to consider if using PayPal.

Was it listed on eBay?

If so, you will NEED to provide a tracking link otherwise the buyer could claim it was never shipped (yes, I know - I've had someone try to pull this scam on me when collecting a £1500 drum machine - they failed thankfully as I had proof)

If collecting in person, get them to bring ID and take images of it with your phone so you have it stored before they leave with your goods having paid you - 2 forms of ID ideally, photo ID and utility bill or Council Tax bill (recent too so they can't say they moved etc)

PayPal can be a really convenient way to pay for a buyer as they don't have to withdraw cash, but, for sums of £5000 there's much more risk involved in them getting buyers remorse and contacting their card provider who in turn will do a chargeback for the money with PayPal and you'll be out of pocket £5000 and have no goods either - this does happen and often as they call their card company and say this transaction wasn't authorized by them - a sibling used their card.

I've worked directly with card companies in one of my previous jobs and know the ins and outs of credit card fraud and scams.

If you're going to use PayPal, ask him to pay you as friends and family if he's happy with the goods having inspected it and get him to sign a form - bill of sale saying that he has accepted the goods, having paid you in full for them.

If he's not happy to do that, bank transfer or it's not happening.

What Scott said. I only take cash, or bank transfer prior to collection, on anything over £300.

I wouldn't use PP for this particular transaction (large value, in person)

If you process it as a 'sale' the fees will be huge. You are also open to a scam of the buyer claiming they did not receive the item and you have no way to prove they did (ie no post tracking).

If you process it as 'Friends and Family', (contrary to popular belief) the buyer can clawback the money - not through Paypal, but via their underlying payment method - ie they can open a claim at their credit card company. The credit card co. will ask PP and PP will not fight your corner for you, since you've effectively defrauded PP by pretending the buyer was your family member in order to avoid giving PP their rightful fee.
https://www.reddit.com/r/paypal/comm...ds_and_family/

Thanks all I'll ask for bank transfer.

Oldgearguy, we have something called 'faster payment' in the UK - (usually) instant bank transfer Uk bank to UK bank. I will insist on that. wise I believe is generally used for overseas transactions.

Good luck

What's that for a BS? "Trust your intuition!" Intution without any knowledge is the stupidest thing there is.
-
And why wouldn't you trust paypal? Do you always act without having any clue of anything at all?

Thus far your "advises" are not worth the bandwidth you wasted on the internet.

To the OP: DO NOT LISTEN to that kind of people, that bring nothing to the table except for shallow blabla. (What is the meani9ng of shallow blabla.)

If someone pays you per paypal - as friend - or family member - you get a receipt from paypal instantly. So the money is yours. Deal done. I know that from a few sales a did that were paid via paypal.

("I don't trust paypal." Sorry, what an "starts with i and ends with diot". I don't trust the weather. On the other hand I do not pay the weather and the weather doesn't pay. Although sometimes it should ...)

- IMPORTANT: Of course Nickel Iron Core is absolutely right. If you want to prevent that scenario do not use paypal. But doesn't change my criticism of the grabme posting.
+ I think you misunderstand what he means. I think he's talking about intuition regarding the seller.

posted by accident

I think you're missing the context of his reply. I took it to mean, trust my intuition about the buyer. Which is very wise advice

I certainly wouldn't drive to someone I've only met on Facebook/online with 5K in my person, there's been people robbed doing just that buying cars online. Hence why the seller wants to do a digital transfer(Just PayPal may be his preference), in the UK if he takes it away in person it's sold as seen btw, i.e. if you buy something at a car boot sale you have no rights to a refund, this sale is really in person/sold as seen, not an eBay sale or the like.

How does Paypal deal with a situation in which the account holder has no money in his account but uses his credit card as back up. The funds then come from a credit card and the seller initially gets his money.

But then the buyer does not pay his credit card bill. I wonder what happens then?

I once had a Paypal payment come through, I sent the goods, and a month later had the money taken back out from my account because the buyer had used a cheque to top up his account which then subsequently bounced. I queried this with Paypal and, although, understanding, they pretty much told me I was stuffed.

That should of been on the credit user not the seller, never heard of that scenario myself. Heck, the person that takes on credit should be liable always.

trying to get in contact with buyer. not answering his phone. no response from text or FB yet. he said he would buy it today... getting bad vibes

Send us the GPS-coordinates of your location and we'll send the drones for overwatch.