You make some interesting points.

My take is that this bland culture of "niceness", egalitarianism, participation trophy winners, not having to struggle to achieve anything anymore (we are all winners and achievers now), "liking" culture (with dislikes disabled of course!), changes in behavior brought about by media bombardment of increasing levels of stupidity and of course dumbing down in schools and colleges are all contributing.

Agreed, the scene was already struggling and died by the end of the 90's, and same answers as above.

Yep

A commentator on youtube made some really insightful points on this.

He explained - and I agree - that many of these "counterculture" personalities from back in the day were frauds. So there, I said it, many things about the pre-2000's also sucked.

These people were very often more akin to what we know today as "social influencers". They talked a good talk about revolution and fighting the system and the man, yet look at most of them today. They are all agitating for the system, accepting awards from the man, gushing over the man, falling over their feet to serve at the system's functions and suck up for their awards. It's ridiculous.

The sad reality is that much of this counterculture was controlled opposition and fake to begin with.

Most real counterculture people, real radicals, people who seek real change well.... good luck to them. Because the venues will ban you, the record companies will ignore you, the media will cancel you. You won't exist.

The revolutionaries you see in the media are the astroturfers.

Yep. Alternative culture has a tendency to go mainstream. Suddenly it's not so alternative any more, the corporations move in, the consumers celebrate it. Before you know it, it's turned into a Burning Man theme park circus.


I was in a pub a while back and there was a cover band playing. These guys were a really good outfit, playing mostly older and (of course) some more recent tracks. Kids (young people) were loving it.

There's always hope. Even if the mainstream are not interested, does it even matter? Help keep the scene alive.

Yes. Good / interesting music is not "nice". And if you have not been through any real hardships / life experiences you probably don't have a lot of interesting things to say (through music or otherwise).

While I agree, I wasn't really talking about the big personalities of countercultures, and not even nescessarily about being fully "against the system".

Rave culture in the early 90s, at least in the Netherlands, wasn't really anti-capitalism / anti-system, yet there was a lot of cool music made and fun to be had. It was culturally very different than the mainstream, the drug use was heavy, but it did not require you to "drop out".

And although of course I know the Sex Pistols were a fabrication, I still really like a lot of their music. I love the raw energy and humor of early punk in general. The early gabber from Rotterdam had a similar punk feel, but it was almost non-political. Yet it was very creative, fun, raw and energetic.

Say what you want about the Sex Pistols, but they were not bland pussies. Neither were the gabber producers. You can't fake this kind of energy. Raw, interesting, fun people can make raw, interesting, fun music. But those people have become increasingly rare, probably due to the "niceness" culture you mentioned, and the computerized homogenization as mentioned by NawwwwwSun.

"The place is just a made-up place. The people are real but the place is just your perception of someone else's idea about where to put the fence and what the sign should say. You know who said that? Mark Twain!" - Bob Dylan

I really enjoy your posts, and I wish there were a lot more people like you.

Although I think I feel as frustrated as you with the cultural state of affairs, after fighting for years, I pretty much gave up on "culture" in my city / country. If you still have the energy, then all power to you. But in hindsight, I personally think I should have thrown in the towel a lot earlier, and spent the time and energy on building up things for my own future.

I don’t even choose to be this way, it just comes naturally and thus far hasn’t shown any signs of abating. It is built in and it keeps my standards and expectations for myself high.

I just went back and cataloged the lineups of parties I threw and DJed at a legendary local venue between 2012-2015. The fact that these things happened and were totally off the charts in energy is inspiring to me now. I go back even further and look at the things I was doing fifteen; twenty, twenty five years ago and I am never embarrassed. Quite the opposite, I recognize the streak of chaos and subversion I bring to the table and it helps keep me motivated to keep doing it for yet another generation of people.

I can’t expect other ppl to do it if I’m not willing to do it myself.

Or how about Autechre!
Started out as early IDM legends. (Well actually they were doing stuff before that too)
Then invented a kind of glitchy-melodica pushing hardware sequencers to their limits.
Then off into some other world of a-melodic, non repetitive insanity when they started using MaxMSP on the computer. This period was completely ground breaking and completely impossible without computers.

Almost 40 years of groundbreaking “music” irrespective of whether they are using hardware or the computer.

Yep.

So you think you are born with a musical ear and it can’t be learned?

I think it all can be learned/practice and repeat equals success.

You aren’t born to make techno are you? Maybe some are ha ha.
You learn to program a drum machine?
As you do a synth….

I think you develop a musical ear over time

Or are you just born with the skill and without anyone showing you or telling you anything you can make a techno master track?
I find that hard to believe.

Yes you can develop an ear but you also have to be wired a certain way to put in the work to develop that ear.

It’s the same for any skill. My work involves pro athletes and they have a certain drive and determination that brought them to that level.

I think there are various personality traits that lend themselves towards creative endeavours. Abstract conceptualisation, pattern recognition, mathematics, happy to spend large amounts of time with things rather than people. All of these things help.

I’m an Architect, and no me there isn’t a big leap from music to architecture from a conceptual basis.

But, I don’t think I could ever make the leap to being a teacher or a social worker…or someone who’s endeavour requires a heavy interest in close personal relationships and interactions. Yes I could spend years getting to know my Kurzweil K2000. But other people? Not so much

I also know that since I was young I had really good hearing…or perhaps my mind was good at hearing unusual things. Patterns like the signal that was sent down electrical cables by power companies to tell our hot water system low peak power was available and it was time to turn on. Yet I couldn’t hear subtle differences in tone from humans that gave clues to how they actually felt behind their words :P

I don’t think any amount of practice would make me a good listener of people.

Same here. More people should speak their mind. The whole go along to get along thing has gotten us into quite a mess. So many things that never would have flown back in the 90s are now a daily routine. Fakery is rife. But I guess it was always this way, it's just so much more in your face when you're online. Endless.

I find it discouraging when I see the schoolyard reaction to anyone who goes against the status quo nowadays. Status quo as in easiest, most friction free perspective, which is what everyone seems to be clinging on to, defending their right to wallow in this situation were in, in clear denial that there's anything wrong 'oh it's the greatest time for music what are you talking about?!' shyeah right, chet. The reaction is more or less nerr nerr ne nerr nerr. Idiocracy style. Again, ever thus, probably. But intensified.

Anyway, yes. More people should take a stand and call out wackness when they see it. Otherwise music really will just shrivel up and become a commercial wallpaper and that's all.

There's a reason the old shit meant so much.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out what that is.

Yeah whatever, being a bitter old fart about it wont change shit though. Just make some great music and let the music speak for itself instead.

Why do you think I am here under an alias and post none of my own music? Lol

Uh, I dunno lol. The post referred to something said by Gearheadz which I found over the top.

Yeah, just how I’m weird in that way

I think it does really apply to anything in life, if you want it and love it you just do can do it. Agree Taft drive and determination will get you there.

Yes very true.

I agree about the musical elements, these are really important musical fundamentals to understand.

I learned all about them when I sat my music theory grades and played piano.

You know, my college education was in electrical engineering and while it was not at a major school for the field it was a big public university that is not a joke generally. I was very surprised by the lack of creativity and other creative pursuits amongst my fellow engineering students. One dude was into music and we obviously connected over that, but most others didn’t seem to have much internet in any of it. This definitely helped me out in longer term projects that were about designing something especially of our own choosing.

Could be because anonymity gives you free pass from being held responsible for your views?

Could be because being anonymous avoids scrutiny of your music?

Could be because you don’t make music?

Could because you are actually Aphex Twin?

Could be because you have multiple accounts and log on just to argue with yourself?

Could be because you previously used your name and got a stalker?

Who knows??

But there is certainly a layer of accountability that is removed using an alias online. And that tends to lead to a greater level of vitriol online than in civil life. People speaking their mind is great. But the ones on this forum who back it up with their actual name or band name get a much higher degree of respect in my eyes.

It’s easy to speak your mind when nobody knows who you are. It’s also way easier to sprout BS and be a complete duckhead.

These comments are not directed at you. They are general and I know there has been talk over the years here of requiring peoples identity to be available to others rather than simply being anonymous. I personally think it would lead to much better discussions. All this despite the fact I only use my artist name with a link to Soundcloud rather than my proper name here.

Yeah cool. I had microelectronic engineering down as my second choice in uni but got in to architecture. I used to love building electric devices growing up. I knew a few real electronics nerds who were right in to electronic music back in the 90s and used to do gear mods and design stuff for people. Got a few cool multi mode filters from DIY guys.

Come to think of it those guys were definitely more into the weird electronics than music composing though…more into experimental bleepy stuff and ‘sound art’.

there's a documentry you may like called the sound of belgium.
if you have not already seen it. subtitles are a must unless you speak the lingo mind.
it kind of paved the way for the rotterdam sound later on.

but i think you are correct in a way about the feel.. it's kind of,

...and then punk bands got electronic instruments.

ahh yes, that manor house thing.

It's crazy how a lot of influential places were not in city's.

also what i find crazy is the size. there were only small places (wavering boccacio as that was kind of large) the cherry moon is very underated in influences, often unspoken of.

I remember riding my bike to the library to get every book I could find on midi to try to figure this stuff out.. god kids now have no idea how hard this stuff was..
When I finally saved up a grand and there actually was a affordable mpc finally.. it changed everything for me.. before that it was miserable. Still though.. You can't do everything on a mpc.. but I had to.. that and a bunch of old crappy sounding synth's. Today you literally can do everything on a mpc.. and it is even cheaper and easier to use.

I do the same because, trolling is fun. Sometimes serious, sometimes trolling but not letting on which is which.

Engineering….I work professionally as one and it’s no surprise engineering students were found in the main to not be creative because….engineering is not a creative profession. Engineering is engineer to the client spec, engineer to the time allowed for and the price and engineer to meet all the required electrical, safety, emf, hazardous area..blah blah…you name it, regulations.

A creative engineer would, one be bloody dangerous and two, do stupid things like putting an incomer at the top of a bottom entry panel and putting breakers before the diode on a redundant DC supply (yes, I have seen this ‘creative’ thinking in action, it’s done by engineers that don’t know what they are doing because some genius in management decided to put someone who was a functional safety software engineer in charge of a control panel design because no one else was available). This sort of creativity gets people killed.

Let me tell you a story about who designs synthesizers and drum machines and all the other fun things everybody here likes

Not only in The Netherlands.
In fact the rave culture in the 90s was the first youth movement that embraced capitalism and was purely hedonistic.
The occasional hippie touch even prevented the kids from irritating their parent generation too much (the vacuum cleaner outfits might have, though).
Of course there were some artists and sound systems that made an exception but most of the audience was very much anti-political.

On that basis a lot of fun can be had, for sure

Depends on the field of application.
Very little of engineering is R&D.

Funny - a turning point in computer science for me was the book “the art of programming” - computer programming can definitely be an art. “Real” engineering can also be an art. An art with rules and guard rails where safety is concerned, but most definitely possible to apply an artistic flourish - architects are engineers!

Wow! That is very impressive!

You know it makes me wonder is there a Delorean parked in front of that studio as well?

“Can be” is not all. Any occupation ‘can be’ creative but the reality is that most employers do not want creative. The company I work for has the word ‘innovation’ in its name. There’s no innovation involved, nothing the competition doesn’t do. It’s just win project, deliver project, on time and on budget. There’s no time or money in the budget for ‘creativity’, you take previously created functional specs and modify them, you take previously designed circuits and modify them (slightly), you take previously created drawings, modify them, you take previously created code and code libraries and reuse whatever is possible. Even the sales effort where there should be creativity of thought in generating sales proposals is 85-90% rehashing of boilerplate, small modifications to suit and making sure the companies @ RSE is covered while doing it as cheaply as possible. There is no room for creativity, that requires experimentation, thought and time, that all costs money and as everybody’s time is booked by the minute to a project, that has been costed to the hour and the deadline is 5pm on Friday. No time for fking about.

It's similar to the other thread "are amateurs ruining music"....amateurs who are perhaps below a certain standard and are flooding the 'market' with noise...maybe but in terms of creativity, an extremely talented amateur can have infinite time booked to a music project and can be as creative as he likes because money in that regard is no object. A professional cannot and budgets are tighter than they have ever been. First album great, second album... you know the story.